Small arms of India

mohitbhagat

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After landing such crazy good deals on Sig-716 & Car-816? Don't think so...

Indian 7.62×39s are no match for the latest recoil counterbalanced Ak-109 or even Ak-15 that claim almost double effective range & accuracy.
But since we are buying same old Ak-103, a Trichy with Ghatak's furniture/rails etc. would make some sense.
Naah Ak103 is still better than our ghatak & trichy rifles. And ak109 still needs time to get more matured.
But the kind of deal we got from sig & Caracal..... it would be a crime if we do not induct these fabulous rifles
 

binayak95

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Noob quetion... How exactly is it better?
The long stroke gas piston of the AK has remained unchanged ever since it first premiered in the AK47 (essentially speaking) but it has been much refined - softer recoil, better gas regulation, yada yada.

What truly makes a difference is the time and energy the Russians have put into integrating the rails onto the gun.

AKs suffered from a horrible zeroing problem on any optics mounted on the rail, since the top cover needs to be removed in any disassembly (our AMAZING OFBs couldn't even change this to a swing down lower receiver type as seen by other AK-type assault rifles - not in the TAR, not in the INSAS).

The new breed of AKs, the AK103M and the AK15 have managed to make the top cover be good enough that once sights are zeroed, they stay zeroed.

Plus, the ruggedness of the AK is legendary and needs no introduction.

All said, I remain skeptical of this AK103 deal, it hasn't been announced, and I don't want us to revert to an AK platform from an AR15 platform. The Ar15 is far more ergonomical.
 

Gessler

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Personally, I never view the 7.62x39mm as a round for marksmanship at any range higher than 300-350 meters. Especially not on the AK platform. Can you score hits with great accuracy especially with a good optic? Yes, you can, but nowhere as reliably as you could with a 7.62x51...or even the 5.56x45 we use today on INSAS. The culprit I think is muzzle velocity (which is considerably lower on AK than a AR-15 or INSAS shooting 5.56 to begin with). If you don't retain the velocity long enough, you can't maintain accuracy at long ranges.

Lower velocity = more flight time = more time for elements like wind to act on the round = unreliable & inconsistent shot placement.

The AK is the gun you need when you're looking for maximum penetration and impact at less than 300m ranges. Perfect for J&K or similar counterinsurgency operations in mostly urban or semi-urban settings with engagement ranges not exceeding 250-350m (generally).

My first preference for Army's future rifle: An intermediary cartridge between 5.56 and 7.62 - i.e. something like a 6.3 or 6.5. However this is probably too much to ask from Ordnance Factories as we'd be needing them to work with ballistics that have never been worked with in India before, and the local industry supporting such endeavours is frankly pathetic. Not to mention they'd have to create a whole new action centered around a whole new calibre. All around, too risky a plan.

Second preference: 7.62x51mm for whole infantry. Let the frontline troops stick with the fancy SIG716, take a considerably cheaper AR-10 based action for rest of infantry. Take a direct impingement if needed, cheaper than piston systems. Many manufacturers exist in US which can offer such a rifle design which would cost $850-1000 in US market (compared to SIG716 which sells for over $2100 off the shelf). Even cheaper when you're manufacturing them in India (could get down to $650 a piece). Have a local company (private with tie-up or OFB) make all 6.5 lakhs of them.

Not to mention, the money saved in streamlining logistics as whole infantry will be using the same calibre service rifle is tremendous.

Third Preference: 5.56 AR-15 (direct impingement for saving costs) but with 4x optics as standard kit for non-frontline infantry. If at all we're going to stick with 5.56, then development of our infantry into a marksman force is a must. Otherwise we'll continue to be out-shot by 7.62 G3 and AKs on that side.

Fourth Preference: What we appear to be doing now. We don't even seem to be going for the railed AK-103M, but the vanilla 103. Meaning when we want to put optics on these rifles, we're either gonna have to adopt ad-hoc solutions, or place separate orders for railed dust covers from FAB or TDI. More money down the drain. If at all we're decided on 7.62x39 as our round of choice, I'd want the new AK-15 as the platform, or at least the AK-103M.

Vanilla 103 is frankly anachronistic.

All said, I remain skeptical of this AK103 deal, it hasn't been announced, and I don't want us to revert to an AK platform from an AR15 platform. The Ar15 is far more ergonomical.
What AR-15 platform are we reverting from? MCIWS? We never adopted it in first place.

That said, I agree, I'm not sold on AK-103 being the service rifle for bulk of infantry. However, I'm now at the position where I must say, I'd rather take a quick G2G deal for AK-103s rather than sit with the tender processes, cancellations, re-tendering and then repeat 10x which would be the alternative.

Some gun is better than no gun.
 
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binayak95

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Personally, I never view the 7.62x39mm as a round for marksmanship at any range higher than 300-350 meters. Especially not on the AK platform. Can you score hits with great accuracy especially with a good optic? Yes, you can, but nowhere as reliably as you could with a 7.62x51...or even the 5.56x45 we use today on INSAS. The culprit I think is muzzle velocity (which is considerably lower on AK than a AR-15 or INSAS shooting 5.56 to begin with). If you don't retain the velocity long enough, you can't maintain accuracy at long ranges.

Lower velocity = more flight time = more time for elements like wind to act on the round = unreliable & inconsistent shot placement.

The AK is the gun you need when you're looking for maximum penetration and impact at less than 300m ranges. Perfect for J&K or similar counterinsurgency operations in mostly urban or semi-urban settings with engagement ranges not exceeding 250-350m (generally).

My first preference for Army's future rifle: An intermediary cartridge between 5.56 and 7.62 - i.e. something like a 6.3 or 6.5. However this is probably too much to ask from Ordnance Factories as we'd be needing them to work with ballistics that have never been worked with in India before, and the local industry supporting such endeavours is frankly pathetic. Not to mention they'd have to create a whole new action centered around a whole new calibre. All around, too risky a plan.

Second preference: 7.62x51mm for whole infantry. Let the frontline troops stick with the fancy SIG716, take a considerably cheaper AR-10 based action for rest of infantry. Take a direct impingement if needed, cheaper than piston systems. Many manufacturers exist in US which can offer such a rifle design which would cost $850-1000 in US market (compared to SIG716 which sells for over $2100 off the shelf). Even cheaper when you're manufacturing them in India (could get down to $650 a piece). Have a local company (private with tie-up or OFB) make all 6.5 lakhs of them.

Not to mention, the money saved in streamlining logistics as whole infantry will be using the same calibre service rifle is tremendous.

Third Preference: 5.56 AR-15 (direct impingement for saving costs) but with 4x optics as standard kit for non-frontline infantry. If at all we're going to stick with 5.56, then development of our infantry into a marksman force is a must. Otherwise we'll continue to be out-shot by 7.62 G3 and AKs on that side.

Fourth Preference: What we appear to be doing now. We don't even seem to be going for the railed AK-103M, but the vanilla 103. Meaning when we want to put optics on these rifles, we're either gonna have to adopt ad-hoc solutions, or place separate orders for railed dust covers from FAB or TDI. More money down the drain. If at all we're decided on 7.62x39 as our round of choice, I'd want the new AK-15 as the platform, or at least the AK-103M.

Vanilla 103 is frankly anachronistic.



What AR-15 platform are we reverting from? MCIWS? We never adopted it in first place.

That said, I agree, I'm not sold on AK-103 being the service rifle for bulk of infantry. However, I'm now at the position where I must say, I'd rather take a quick G2G deal for AK-103s rather than sit with the tender processes, cancellations, re-tendering and then repeat 10x which would be the alternative.

Some gun is better than no gun.
Completely and thoroughly agreed.

Unfortunately I can't see the IA adopt a 6.3 or a 6.8 or even a 300 BLK ammo..

That said, SIG716 for infantry and CAR 816 for others is not a bad idea at all.

I think we are going for the Ak103M, IF we go for it at all, which I think unlikely .

And the AR15 platform that I was talking of is the CAR816/SIG716 guns. You give these to CT/CI units and expect other infantry units to not raise a stink is really stupid.
 

Enquirer

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Personally, I never view the 7.62x39mm as a round for marksmanship at any range higher than 300-350 meters. Especially not on the AK platform. Can you score hits with great accuracy especially with a good optic? Yes, you can, but nowhere as reliably as you could with a 7.62x51...or even the 5.56x45 we use today on INSAS. The culprit I think is muzzle velocity (which is considerably lower on AK than a AR-15 or INSAS shooting 5.56 to begin with). If you don't retain the velocity long enough, you can't maintain accuracy at long ranges.

Lower velocity = more flight time = more time for elements like wind to act on the round = unreliable & inconsistent shot placement.

The AK is the gun you need when you're looking for maximum penetration and impact at less than 300m ranges. Perfect for J&K or similar counterinsurgency operations in mostly urban or semi-urban settings with engagement ranges not exceeding 250-350m (generally).

My first preference for Army's future rifle: An intermediary cartridge between 5.56 and 7.62 - i.e. something like a 6.3 or 6.5. However this is probably too much to ask from Ordnance Factories as we'd be needing them to work with ballistics that have never been worked with in India before, and the local industry supporting such endeavours is frankly pathetic. Not to mention they'd have to create a whole new action centered around a whole new calibre. All around, too risky a plan.

Second preference: 7.62x51mm for whole infantry. Let the frontline troops stick with the fancy SIG716, take a considerably cheaper AR-10 based action for rest of infantry. Take a direct impingement if needed, cheaper than piston systems. Many manufacturers exist in US which can offer such a rifle design which would cost $850-1000 in US market (compared to SIG716 which sells for over $2100 off the shelf). Even cheaper when you're manufacturing them in India (could get down to $650 a piece). Have a local company (private with tie-up or OFB) make all 6.5 lakhs of them.

Not to mention, the money saved in streamlining logistics as whole infantry will be using the same calibre service rifle is tremendous.

Third Preference: 5.56 AR-15 (direct impingement for saving costs) but with 4x optics as standard kit for non-frontline infantry. If at all we're going to stick with 5.56, then development of our infantry into a marksman force is a must. Otherwise we'll continue to be out-shot by 7.62 G3 and AKs on that side.

Fourth Preference: What we appear to be doing now. We don't even seem to be going for the railed AK-103M, but the vanilla 103. Meaning when we want to put optics on these rifles, we're either gonna have to adopt ad-hoc solutions, or place separate orders for railed dust covers from FAB or TDI. More money down the drain. If at all we're decided on 7.62x39 as our round of choice, I'd want the new AK-15 as the platform, or at least the AK-103M.

Vanilla 103 is frankly anachronistic.



What AR-15 platform are we reverting from? MCIWS? We never adopted it in first place.

That said, I agree, I'm not sold on AK-103 being the service rifle for bulk of infantry. However, I'm now at the position where I must say, I'd rather take a quick G2G deal for AK-103s rather than sit with the tender processes, cancellations, re-tendering and then repeat 10x which would be the alternative.

Some gun is better than no gun.
Without going into the merits/demerits of individual calibers, I would like to opine that there is a lot of value in having the entire 'section' carry the same caliber rounds - assault rifle, HMG, LMG and DMR!!
(DMR could just of same caliber but longer/thicker barrel!)
As such, I feel 7.62x51mm might be the common denominator across all these rifles (AR, HMG, LMG, DMR etc).

(COIN ops could still use 7.62x39 )
 

WolfPack86

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#Indian_Army Opens Bid For 360,000 Battle Carbines

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With a contract for nearly 94,000 close quarter battle (CQB) carbines for infantry soldiers near conclusion, the Indian Army has kickstarted the final leg of a staggered effort to arm units with these crucial assault firearms that India has simply failed to acquire in meaningful numbers for years. Late last year, the Indian Army downselected UAE-based Caracal’s CAR 816 to meet a ‘fast-track’ requirement of 93,895 such carbines. Now, the army has issued a ‘supplementary request for information’ to procure a further 360,000 carbines through what appears will be yet another contested tender process. Crucially, the army wants all of the 360,000 carbines in the new program to be manufactured in India.

The carbines are intended to replace the army’s ageing in-service Sterling 9mm carbines.

As a fast-track procurement, the imminent order of 93,895 carbines will be serviced over a 12-month period by UAE’s Caracal at its firearm facility located at the Tawazun Industrial Park in Al Ajban near Abu Dhabi. The new contest for 360,000 more carbines will likely see the Caracal CAR 816 face off against other carbines, including the Thales F90 (with its Indian partner MKU Ltd) among several others. UAE’s Caracal, incidentally, also partners with MKU Ltd in India.

Significantly, the army appears to be trying to control damage after a handful of irritated vendors either stayed away from the earlier contest for 93,895 carbines or walked out. The army has declared now that it has extended the search to ‘ensure maximum participation’ in the new contest for 360,000 carbines. Last year, U.S. firm Colt and Italian firm Beretta walked out mid-way from the contest that was finally won by Caracal. Other prominent weapon makers like Belgium’s FN Herstal and Germany’s Heckler & Koch didn’t even bother to enter the contest in the first place, owing mostly to the notoriously whimsical, ad hoc and unpredictable manner in which the Indian MoD has so far acquired firearms for the army.

Noting the decrepit state of firearms procurement, Indian Army chief General Bipin Rawat in 2017 pushed a new effort to procure certain numbers of assault firearms on a fast-track basis, with larger numbers to follow. The fast track effort that down-selected the CAR 816 in the carbine category has also chosen the Sig Sauer SIG 716 for a requirement of 72,000 assault rifles to replace the troubled in-service INSAS rifle. India and Russia are also now finalising the contours for a joint venture to manufacture at least 650,000 new generation AK-103 assault rifles for the infantry. A Russian team was in India earlier this month to take forward discussions with the state-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB).

In March this year, a report in India’s Parliament laid bare the ruined and troubled quest for basic assault rifles for Indian Army troops, even with an expanded focus on close infantry operations in Jammu & Kashmir.

Acquisition of basic firearms like carbines have been beset with troubles at every step. Even the imminent deal for 93,895 carbines with Caracal stands on something of a razor’s edge in the face of a formal protest by Thales, which has contested the result, and a protest by Korea’s S&T Motiv on charges that it was wrongly declared non-compliant in the contest. The contest, if it finally results in a contract soon, leaves many frayed tempers in its wake. Nominally, this wouldn’t matter to the army, which has a priority to follow due process to choose and procure weapons on a fact-track. On the other hand, the bad blood drummed up in the contest makes the army’s hope for ‘maximum participation’ a big ask. Sources told Livefist that the size of the order, as always, will be the big carrot.

A dream contest for the army would involve Caracal, Colt, Berretta, S&T Motiv, Israeli Weapon Industries, SIG Sauer, Heckler & Koch, FN Herstal and Russian firms.

On another firearm front, earlier this month, the Indian Army revealed that it had chosen to procure unspecified numbers of two new sniper rifle types for infantry units deployed on the Line of Control with Pakistan-occupied Kashmir.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TeamAMCA/photos/?ref=page_internal
 

Unknowncommando 2

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Can the SIG and caracal rifle which the army is so keen to procude survive -40C temperature like Ghatak. Did cold weather trials take place or was it dropped from the requirement?
Obviously They were tested in all kinds of Indian Conditions. Field Trials were held just after panel's visit + trials in their country by companies in their testing chambers.
 

Aaj ka hero

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Field Trials were held just after panel's visit + trials in their country by companies in their testing chambers.
Sirji, this is not... I think is a convincing line:hmm: after that old news of "foreign rifles failing in indian conditions" when who and who not world famous countries companies entered into one of the previous trials.
Don't know that news was correct or not.
 

mohitbhagat

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In
You see pictures of Indian soldiers in camouflage uniform carry the older INSAS Rifle with the bright brown wooden stock against the black metal of the main body of the rifle - and there goes your camouflage.

Why does this kind of stupid stuff always happen in India ? Doesn't anybody in the MOD have any level of common sense. At least paint the bloody stock black, or camouflage or whatever, right ?
In a country where MOD is run by civilians and who thinks about themselves more than the military is bound to have these things happening
 

mohitbhagat

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There is no so called 25% or 75 % stuff, the nit wit article that day was again an anonymous MoD official.
There is only one route that is 2.5 Lac 7.62*51 through Global Tender and not FOREIGN VENDOR as preached by many fanboys and rest will be either INSAS 1c or Ghatak 7.62*39.
Whatever that comes out of the mouth of Army's COAS is the ultimate truth, as plans don't change in every couple of months:
"My thinking is: Since a state-of-the-art assault rifle will cost about Rs 200,000 each in the global market, let us issue these only to frontline infantry soldiers who confront the enemy armed only with their rifles,” Rawat told Business Standard. “Let us provide a cheaper indigenous option to other soldiers, for whom the rifle is not a primary weapon,” he added.

As for 7.62*51 of OFB, here are Updates by INDRA FB page:

BREAKING NEWS
•Trials of the indigenously developed assault rifle has made progress after the initial bottlenecks.
The sixth round was completed in November by the the Project Management Team.
•The army has sought for 50 rifles , out which it will select some rifles randomly for trials to check the consistency.
•There was a problem with the consistency of the rifle , while the army wanted 99% consistency , the rifle only has 98%.
• The initial requirements for the army is 1,85,000 (emergency purposes) and the other requirement will be met by a joint venture between private company and OFB
I don't think army will induct an ofb rifle chambered in 7.62 nato. We're getting everything from foreign oems.
 

shankyz

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New Delhi: After a long, long while, the Indian jawan on the line of control knows that modern, high-quality rifles are on the way. The defence minister, Ms Nirmala Sitharaman, has just cleared the purchase of 72,400 rifles for the Indian army, initially for soldiers in difficult conditions, fighting infiltrating terrorists in Jammu and Kashmir.

These are the SIG716-G2 rifles from Sig Sauer and delivery is likely within a year. There can be delays: the contract mentions delivery within a designated period. These will use 7.62 mm ammunition and they may be more effective than the indigenous INSAS rifles that use 5.56 mm ammunition.

The deal was initially for rifles, carbines and light machine-guns, but so far, the rifles have been cleared and the carbines are likely to be okayed very soon. The LMG deal is likely to take more time as rebidding has happened. And buying rifles are not going to hurt the exchequer very much — Rs 700 crore or less is all that it is likely to cost.

Once the carbines also come, the humble jawan, the man right on the front, will have the best possible weapons. Currently, he is having to use the INSAS rifle, good but underpowered slightly and also, the AK-47, still very effective. The SIG716-G2 will be a new generation rifle, lighter and more accurate.

https://www.timesnownews.com/india/...g-sauer-guns-ak47-assault-rifles-insas/358404
 

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