Small arms of India

[ALBY]

Nice. That original pistol grip is a shame though.

Does this company buy AKs directly or do they get a contract, have the agency deliver the AKs then retrofit AKs for the user?

It's a Romanian md96,means just like Fab they too retrofit old Aks

 

[ALBY]

What I don’t understand is why RR and AR aren’t getting 7.62*51 rifles but the same rifles as non-combatant arms (AK-103). The 7.62*51 makes the most sense for units like RR and AR.

Plus it’s utterly disgraceful that the IA hasn’t gone for an IWI product. IWI took the initiative to invest in India, to tie up with an Indian company and are already making weapons in India for Indian market and abroad. The SIG or CAR will just be made on licence and when the licence is done that will be it.

IWI has plugged india India into their global supply chain and EVERY IWI weapon sold anywhere in the world has parts made in India. SIG and CAR won’t offer even 10% of this.


It’s all so a$$ backwards.

Due to the lessons learned from SriLanka where both full auto and semi auto SLRs were not a match for light weight and less recoil Aks..Heavy weight,less ammo carrying capacity,comparativel high recoil ,are all going to be negatives.Also CT ops happen with in 100 mts ,so long range of 7.62 Nato doensnt matter.Also the cost of Sig is alomsa double that of an Ak103 o it's logical to equip RR. And other second line units with Ak103.
Apart from these there is another angle to the selection,these Ak103 s are going to be made in OFB facilities.If it was any other weapon ,it is highly doubtful OFB have the capacity and skills to manufacture more sophisticated arms with good quality.So by selecting Ak103 OFB will get running at the same time the cost will be cheaper too.
PS:Still Ak15 with free floating barrel was a better choice.

 

[Maddy_9UY]

What I don’t understand is why RR and AR aren’t getting 7.62*51 rifles but the same rifles as non-combatant arms (AK-103). The 7.62*51 makes the most sense for units like RR and AR.

Plus it’s utterly disgraceful that the IA hasn’t gone for an IWI product. IWI took the initiative to invest in India, to tie up with an Indian company and are already making weapons in India for Indian market and abroad. The SIG or CAR will just be made on licence and when the licence is done that will be it.

IWI has plugged india India into their global supply chain and EVERY IWI weapon sold anywhere in the world has parts made in India. SIG and CAR won’t offer even 10% of this.


It’s all so a$$ backwards.

What if the next tender for 7.62 AK caliber rifle goes to IWI? Galil ACE is still in contention for that.

 

[mohitbhagat]

If we look at M14 EBR then upgrading FNFal is adequate. We should have at least 2 DMR per section which would be around 20-25 per Company. If DMR can hit point targets upto 400m then it's good enough and FNs can do that with side mounted Scopes.

The role of sniper is more specialised and we need around 4-5 Sniper per company who are equipped with much more powerful and accurate Rifles which can hit point targets at longer range.

I strongly believe that the DMR version of the SIG Sauer 716 ultimately will be adopted sooner or later. Once the deal is signed it will open the floodgates to the new weapons.

 

[mohitbhagat]

They are manufacturing a .338 Lapua
Too.
Will try and post pics if I am allowed to. It’s being tested
Currently.

Well lets see what happens. Manufacturing a long range highly accurate sniper rifle is not a easy task. When army is not accepting their assault rifle and carbines there's no way in hell they will accept their sniper rifles

 

[mohitbhagat]

What I don’t understand is why RR and AR aren’t getting 7.62*51 rifles but the same rifles as non-combatant arms (AK-103). The 7.62*51 makes the most sense for units like RR and AR.

Plus it’s utterly disgraceful that the IA hasn’t gone for an IWI product. IWI took the initiative to invest in India, to tie up with an Indian company and are already making weapons in India for Indian market and abroad. The SIG or CAR will just be made on licence and when the licence is done that will be it.

IWI has plugged india India into their global supply chain and EVERY IWI weapon sold anywhere in the world has parts made in India. SIG and CAR won’t offer even 10% of this.


It’s all so a$$ backwards.

But these rifles are coming for the troops deployed for counter insurgency operations. So RR and AR should be among the first to get these.
Also what can you do if IWI loses a bid. Our SFs loves Tavor 21 and Ace 32, so they might buy their new Tavor7 separately

 

[mohitbhagat]

Due to the lessons learned from SriLanka where both full auto and semi auto SLRs were not a match for light weight and less recoil Aks..Heavy weight,less ammo carrying capacity,comparativel high recoil ,are all going to be negatives.Also CT ops happen with in 100 mts ,so long range of 7.62 Nato doensnt matter.Also the cost of Sig is alomsa double that of an Ak103 o it's logical to equip RR. And other second line units with Ak103.
Apart from these there is another angle to the selection,these Ak103 s are going to be made in OFB facilities.If it was any other weapon ,it is highly doubtful OFB have the capacity and skills to manufacture more sophisticated arms with good quality.So by selecting Ak103 OFB will get running at the same time the cost will be cheaper too.
PS:Still Ak15 with free floating barrel was a better choice.

I just want to know why in hell we're not going for Ak15 instead of Ak103. Why not adopt a modern Ak instead of adopting something designed in 1990s.
OFB only manufactures weapons made from stamped metal sheets unlike the AR15 style rifles which are now being manufactured from machined metal parts.
These are the reasons why I believe that Ak103 is not coming keeping the army in mind but instead keeping OFBs in mind

 

[mohitbhagat]

What if the next tender for 7.62 AK caliber rifle goes to IWI? Galil ACE is still in contention for that.

I highly doubt that. Galil Ace is a costly rifle and costs almost twice of Kalasnikov variants. Even the Ak Alfa costs around 3/5th of what Galil Ace costs.

 

[Maddy_9UY]

I highly doubt that. Galil Ace is a costly rifle and costs almost twice of Kalasnikov variants. Even the Ak Alfa costs around 3/5th of what Galil Ace costs.

The market price is always higher than the biding price offer since we would be ordering it in bulk. Also as IWI has its own manufacturing unit here so the price may reduce further.

 

[mohitbhagat]

The market price is always higher than the biding price offer since we would be ordering it in bulk. Also as IWI has its own manufacturing unit here so the price may reduce further.

Yeah but Galil Ace market cost is around $2000 whereas modern Ak's like AK Alfa costs around $1200. Russia version are even more cheaper and Bulgarians are famous for selling cheap Ak's. If the rifles are going to be manufactured by OFBs then IWI might lose the tender.

 

[Kchontha]

4th change in 7 yrs

In its tender last year, the Army had sought 7.62x51 mm rifles that would have cost Rs 2 lakh each

On August 31, 2018, a fresh Army tender listed demand for 6.50 lakh assault rifles with lower specification i.e. 7.62x39 mm

Each rifle will now cost one-fourth the amount. This is fourth change in seven years.

The first was the multicalibur tender whereas the second was the 7.62x51 requirement.

This is old news but interesting to read.

Rifle specs tweak to save Army Rs 6,000 cr - The Tribune
https://www.tribuneindia.com › r...


Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk

 

[Kay]

4th change in 7 yrs

In its tender last year, the Army had sought 7.62x51 mm rifles that would have cost Rs 2 lakh each

On August 31, 2018, a fresh Army tender listed demand for 6.50 lakh assault rifles with lower specification i.e. 7.62x39 mm

Each rifle will now cost one-fourth the amount. This is fourth change in seven years.

The first was the multicalibur tender whereas the second was the 7.62x51 requirement.

This is old news but interesting to read.

Rifle specs tweak to save Army Rs 6,000 cr - The Tribune
https://www.tribuneindia.com › r...


Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk

 

[ALBY]

I just want to know why in hell we're not going for Ak15 instead of Ak103. Why not adopt a modern Ak instead of adopting something designed in 1990s.
OFB only manufactures weapons made from stamped metal sheets unlike the AR15 style rifles which are now being manufactured from machined metal parts.
These are the reasons why I believe that Ak103 is not coming keeping the army in mind but instead keeping OFBs in mind

Cost factor.Nothing else..Let's wait and watch whether OFB will make older Ak103 or newer Ak203 with ME style butt ,inbuilt quad rails and rail over receiver .

 

[su35]

Guys we just buying SIG 716 rifle or other accessories and attachment are included in this deal??
how is is SIG 716 compared to SIG MCX VIRTUS?
[URL='https://www.sigsauer.com/store/sig-mcx-virtus-patrol.html'][/URL]

 

[mohitbhagat]

4th change in 7 yrs

In its tender last year, the Army had sought 7.62x51 mm rifles that would have cost Rs 2 lakh each

On August 31, 2018, a fresh Army tender listed demand for 6.50 lakh assault rifles with lower specification i.e. 7.62x39 mm

Each rifle will now cost one-fourth the amount. This is fourth change in seven years.

The first was the multicalibur tender whereas the second was the 7.62x51 requirement.

This is old news but interesting to read.

Rifle specs tweak to save Army Rs 6,000 cr - The Tribune
https://www.tribuneindia.com › r...


Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk

we can buy a 716 including optics and accessories in 2 lakhs

 

[nongaddarliberal]

Let us hold hands a say a prayer for this rifle, which could've been a killer.

God dammit, 6.8mm would have been PERFECT. It's the logical next step to 5.56. We are taking a step back by going for 7.62x51 rifles when ww2 and all wars since have clearly shown that intermediate rounds are far better for standard infantry than full calibre rifle rounds. 7.62x39 AK's are not accurate enough, and hard to control in full auto. 5.56 doesn't have enough stopping power, especially if the enemy is behind cover, like a tree or a concrete wall. 6.8 mm is the perfect combination of accuracy, power, and controlability. But our guys don't want to take the risk of employing a round that is not already in widespread use around the world. Why must we always follow other countries? Suppose the US went ahead with 6.8 mm 15 years ago, then we would see a tender today from the Indian army for a 6.8mm assault rifle. ( With 0.5kg weight, 20km accuracy, integrated laser lights and party lights, integrated thermal vision and 7th dimension vision, etc etc).

 

[Hari Sud]

God dammit, 6.8mm would have been PERFECT. It's the logical next step to 5.56. We are taking a step back by going for 7.62x51 rifles when ww2 and all wars since have clearly shown that intermediate rounds are far better for standard infantry than full calibre rifle rounds. 7.62x39 AK's are not accurate enough, and hard to control in full auto. 5.56 doesn't have enough stopping power, especially if the enemy is behind cover, like a tree or a concrete wall. 6.8 mm is the perfect combination of accuracy, power, and controlability. But our guys don't want to take the risk of employing a round that is not already in widespread use around the world. Why must we always follow other countries? Suppose the US went ahead with 6.8 mm 15 years ago, then we would see a tender today from the Indian army for a 6.8mm assault rifle. ( With 0.5kg weight, 20km accuracy, integrated laser lights and party lights, integrated thermal vision and 7th dimension vision, etc etc).

Sir, the only rifle which is good is the one which outshoots the enemy with his rifle. Forget the American propaganda about 5.56 round. Even they want to dump it.

Under Indian conditions, the very first criteria is what rifle the Pakistanis are carrying. They have 7.62 full NATO round. Hence the rifle which will outshoot the Pakistani rifle will be 7.62x51 rifle.

Two types of rifles which fall in this category are AR-15 or Ak-47 derivative with NATO round capability. These will outshoot the Pakistani rifle any day.

AR -15 derivatives lke Sig Sayer or Caracal are considered a cut above. These have not been tried in a battle. But their outside appearance is different. Inside mechanism is same.

Not to be out done AK-47 derivatives like Israeli or even the Russian ( but not full powered round) are as good. Israeli (Galil) are pricer but Russian is as good and is cheaper (AK-103).

Then which one!!!

Indian Generals went for Sig Sayer for forward troops and AK-103 is for support troops.

A very good choice.

The issue is that OFB and DRDO are left in the cold with their brand. It is probably their fault. They could not deliver quality. That does not inspire confidence for a soldier facing the enemy at 500 yards range.

Hence, where is the decision? Are reverse auction negotiations are still going on. If yes then how long. War is upon us. Without fighting it there is no peace. This will be war to end all wars. It has to be fought and won. Any delay is suicidal.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

Sir, the only rifle which is good is the one which outshoots the enemy with his rifle. Forget the American propaganda about 5.56 round. Even they want to dump it.

Under Indian conditions, the very first criteria is what rifle the Pakistanis are carrying. They have 7.62 full NATO round. Hence the rifle which will outshoot the Pakistani rifle will be 7.62x51 rifle.

Two types of rifles which fall in this category are AR-15 or Ak-47 derivative with NATO round capability. These will outshoot the Pakistani rifle any day.

AR -15 derivatives lke Sig Sayer or Caracal are considered a cut above. These have not been tried in a battle. But their outside appearance is different. Inside mechanism is same.

Not to be out done AK-47 derivatives like Israeli or even the Russian ( but not full powered round) are as good. Israeli (Galil) are pricer but Russian is as good and is cheaper (AK-103).

Then which one!!!

Indian Generals went for Sig Sayer for forward troops and AK-103 is for support troops.

A very good choice.

The issue is that OFB and DRDO are left in the cold with their brand. It is probably their fault. They could not deliver quality. That does not inspire confidence for a soldier facing the enemy at 500 yards range.

Hence, where is the decision? Are reverse auction negotiations are still going on. If yes then how long. War is upon us. Without fighting it there is no peace. This will be war to end all wars. It has to be fought and won. Any delay is suicidal.

This is where the new intermediate rounds like 6.5mm creedmore come into play. These new rounds have longer range accuracy than the 7.62 NATO, please check it's ballistic characteristics online, while still having low enough recoil to be used as assault rifle rounds. And they definitely have longer range effectiveness than either 5.56 or 7.62x39. So we can make Designated Marksman rifles, standards assault rifles, and close quarter carbines from the same round.

Btw, you mentioned American propaganda about 5.56, but then you went on to say that ar 15 is a cut above, even though it's a 5.56 rifle. I'm somewhat confused. If you read my post again, I clearly wrote that 5.56 is not adequate, as even you mentioned the Americans want to dump it. And it terms of long range accuracy, AK series rifles are even less adequate as they have less accuracy than AR platforms.

 

[Chinmoy]

Had they developed a 6.8mm version of this rifle? Imho, Americans are doing the same for replacing their older 5.56x45 mm rifles.

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An old article, but very detailed study of MCIWS. Hope its not a repost.

 

[Vishal Chandorkar]

Sad to see the kind of uniforms and the vintage quality of shoes they have been given. Looks like some banana republic paramilitary unit.

OFB GHATAK rifles
ITBP Raising Day Parade
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