Small arms of India

[Kchontha]

What sort of 7.62x39 rifle is this? Please identified....

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[ezsasa]

It would be a great idea, I show some picture of SLR somewhere doing the same things san butstock, dunno who did it.

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yup... this one....................................

 

[Kchontha]

yup... this one....................................

Holistic abandoning of this weapon (7.62x51 SLR) by the IA was a logistic blunder rather it should be upgraded and retained in smaller quantity. It has the potential to be upgraded into an effective DMR and a modern battle rifle. They will be needing it in the plains of punjab, the desert and mountains so the new 7.62x51 rifles RFP/RFI.

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[ALBY]

Holistic abandoning of this weapon (7.62x51 SLR) by the IA was a logistic blunder rather it should be upgraded and retained in smaller quantity. It has the potential to be upgraded into an effective DMR and a modern battle rifle. They will be needing it in the plains of punjab, the desert and mountains so the new 7.62x51 rifles RFP/RFI.

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It could have been turned into.a good battle rifle,but turning FNFAL into a good DMR when compared with SVD/Galil is doubtful.SVDs are in good numbers plus SLRs have a bad reputation in the role of a marksman rifle.SLRs sucked in the role of a marksman rifle that's why Brits retained Lee Enfield's to do the sniping job even though SLRs were standard battle rifle.Read about the defects of SLR as a sharpshooter in deapth somewhere sometime back,now I am unable to find the link.

 

[ALBY]

The muzzle device is visible. It also has new sights.View attachment 28826

Did they just added a muzzle brake or fully replaced the barrel?Anyway the shifting of position of sights was the best thing .

 

[binayak95]

It could have been turned into.a good battle rifle,but turning FNFAL into a good DMR when compared with SVD/Galil is doubtful.SVDs are in good numbers plus SLRs have a bad reputation in the role of a marksman rifle.SLRs sucked in the role of a marksman rifle that's why Brits retained Lee Enfield's to do the sniping job even though SLRs were standard battle rifle.Read about the defects of SLR as a sharpshooter in deapth somewhere sometime back,now I am unable to find the link.

I wanted to say the same, but people on this forum go haywire when you question anything built locally... that SLR barrel with the quad rails - that's not ours - its a foreign sourced material - FAB defense maybe?

Lee Enfield Sniper L42A1s (chambered in the 7.62x51) were retained till 1989 when it was replaced by the accuracy international L96. One of the LONGEST serving bolt actions in history.

 

[Kchontha]

It could have been turned into.a good battle rifle,but turning FNFAL into a good DMR when compared with SVD/Galil is doubtful.SVDs are in good numbers plus SLRs have a bad reputation in the role of a marksman rifle.SLRs sucked in the role of a marksman rifle that's why Brits retained Lee Enfield's to do the sniping job even though SLRs were standard battle rifle.Read about the defects of SLR as a sharpshooter in deapth somewhere sometime back,now I am unable to find the link.

It seems like either you misread or misinterpreted, the two words 'upgrading' and 'turning' are not synonymous. And where did I mention SVD or Galatz?

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[Kchontha]

I wanted to say the same, but people on this forum go haywire when you question anything built locally... that SLR barrel with the quad rails - that's not ours - its a foreign sourced material - FAB defense maybe?

Lee Enfield Sniper L42A1s (chambered in the 7.62x51) were retained till 1989 when it was replaced by the accuracy international L96. One of the LONGEST serving bolt actions in history.

I just mentioned about a DMR and people started their verbal diarrhea without differentiating a DMR and a Sniper rifle. What is wrong there in supporting indigenous development? I wonder why people bring in here inconlusive bolt action vs semi automatic controversy regarding their sniping capabilities.

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[binayak95]

I just mentioned about a DMR and people started their verbal diarrhea without differentiating a DMR and a Sniper rifle. What is wrong there in supporting indigenous development? I wonder why people bring in here inconlusive bolt action vs semi automatic controversy regarding their sniping capabilities.

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The perils of jumping the gun without knowing the basics of firearm technology.

Do you know the difference between a tilting bolt and a rotating bolt and what that difference implies for accuracy? The difference between a floating barrel and a fixed barrel and its implications?

Yes? Then you are a fool to even suggest using a FAL/SLR as a DMR. If you don't know, then LEARN!

 

[ezsasa]

The perils of jumping the gun without knowing the basics of firearm technology.

Do you know the difference between a tilting bolt and a rotating bolt and what that difference implies for accuracy? The difference between a floating barrel and a fixed barrel and its implications?

Yes? Then you are a fool to even suggest using a FAL/SLR as a DMR. If you don't know, then LEARN!

if you think you can teach him something new, just do it without being condescending.
the points you are raising haven't been discussed on DFI in last 2-3 years.

 

[Kchontha]

The perils of jumping the gun without knowing the basics of firearm technology.

Do you know the difference between a tilting bolt and a rotating bolt and what that difference implies for accuracy? The difference between a floating barrel and a fixed barrel and its implications?

Yes? Then you are a fool to even suggest using a FAL/SLR as a DMR. If you don't know, then LEARN!

Self styled/designed gun guruji, why don't you write or suggest your basic of firearm technology here instead of being too emotional, everybody can put forth their views, this is a democratic forum.

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[binayak95]

Self styled/designed gun guruji, why don't you write or suggest your basic of firearm technology here instead of being too emotional, everybody can put forth their views, this is a democratic forum.

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Hahahahahaahhahahahahahahahah
There are enough resources/forums/videos online that will give you the difference in DETAIL about why a certain gun was designed the way it was or why a gun is not suitable for a particular role - refer to the Ian McCollum's website and youtube channels.

And yeah, if you want to argue, come out with sources showing a FAL/SLR doing a 1 MOA at 500 yards.

 

[Subham Show]

View attachment 28822 View attachment 28822

upgraded AK for the Paras
View attachment 28822

the M-LOK rail interfaces are a smart move so that later on rails on sides can be mounted.

 

[Kchontha]

Hahahahahaahhahahahahahahahah
There are enough resources/forums/videos online that will give you the difference in DETAIL about why a certain gun was designed the way it was or why a gun is not suitable for a particular role - refer to the Ian McCollum's website and youtube channels.

And yeah, if you want to argue, come out with sources showing a FAL/SLR doing a 1 MOA at 500 yards.

Dude! I have developed a sympathy for people like you, it seems to me that you don't understand plane English, better you go to a high school English tutorial rather then watching you tube videos thereby rote learning and cramming. Otherwise you are simply derailed.
How can I dare argue with a ss/d gun guru like you.
Watch that and rote learn
This ‘Ribbon Gun’ can fire 5 rounds at nearly 4,000 fps — in one shot.

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[Kchontha]

This 'Ribbon Gun' can fire 5 rounds at nearly 4,000 fps — in one shot
https://www.militarytimes.com › gearscout


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[binayak95]

Dude! I have developed a sympathy for people like you, it seems to me that you don't understand plane English, better you go to a high school English tutorial rather then watching you tube videos thereby rote learning and cramming. Otherwise you are simply derailed.
How can I dare argue with a ss/d gun guru like you.
Watch that and rote learn
This ‘Ribbon Gun’ can fire 5 rounds at nearly 4,000 fps — in one shot.

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Guy talks of simple English and spells 'plain' as 'plane'. hahahha

Good on you dude. Good on you. Forgive my arrogance, dear sir, but this peasant won't ever dare speak of actual guns and their use in the real world. Clearly, you have fired several guns, have achieved tight groupings at 600 yards and possess real-world knowledge. My MISTAKE.

 

[Kchontha]

The FAL has been used by over 90 countries, and over two million have been produced. The FAL was originally made by Fabrique Nationale de Herstal (FN) in Liège, Belgium, but it has also been made under license in fifteen countries. As of August 2006, new examples were still being produced by at least four different manufacturers worldwide.

There are many example of fal up gradation, here is the Argentinian example.

Argentinian Fal rifles are currently being modernized to a new standard, the FAL M5 (or FAL V), which uses polymer parts to reduce weight, and has Picatinny rails and optic mounts for carrying accessories, that created these variants:

FAMTD: Fusil Argentino Modelo Tirador Destacado - Cañón Pesado (Argentine Designated Marksman Rifle - Heavy Barrel), DMR variant. It has a range of 650 meters.
FAMTD: Fusil Argentino Modelo Tirador Destacado - Cañón Liviano (Argentine Designated Marksman Rifle - Light Barrel), It has a light bipod, a telescopic sight (10 × 50) with coupling for night vision, a new top-mount system for the application cited above and a cylinder head with support mentofacial.
FAMA: Fusil Argentino Modelo Asalto(Argentine Assault Rifle Model), this is the assault rifle version, using 7.62 ammunition. It has a rate of 700 rounds per minute, and it has a length of 591 mm. Able to incorporate holographic view, laser flashlight, tactical grip or a grenade launcher 40 mm.

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[binayak95]

The FAL has been used by over 90 countries, and over two million have been produced. The FAL was originally made by Fabrique Nationale de Herstal (FN) in Liège, Belgium, but it has also been made under license in fifteen countries. As of August 2006, new examples were still being produced by at least four different manufacturers worldwide.

There are many example of fal up gradation, here is the Argentinian example.

Argentinian Fal rifles are currently being modernized to a new standard, the FAL M5 (or FAL V), which uses polymer parts to reduce weight, and has Picatinny rails and optic mounts for carrying accessories, that created these variants:

FAMTD: Fusil Argentino Modelo Tirador Destacado - Cañón Pesado (Argentine Designated Marksman Rifle - Heavy Barrel), DMR variant. It has a range of 650 meters.
FAMTD: Fusil Argentino Modelo Tirador Destacado - Cañón Liviano (Argentine Designated Marksman Rifle - Light Barrel), It has a light bipod, a telescopic sight (10 × 50) with coupling for night vision, a new top-mount system for the application cited above and a cylinder head with support mentofacial.
FAMA: Fusil Argentino Modelo Asalto(Argentine Assault Rifle Model), this is the assault rifle version, using 7.62 ammunition. It has a rate of 700 rounds per minute, and it has a length of 591 mm. Able to incorporate holographic view, laser flashlight, tactical grip or a grenade launcher 40 mm.

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GLAD you brought up the Argnetinian upgrade of FALs- what is their engagement range - 650m. IS that enough for your average DMR?

This is the new FAMTD btw:

lets compare the 650m engagement limit with well known DMRs used the world over (including our own DMRs).

1. SVD Dragunov:
Fires the venerable 7.62x54R round which dates back to the OG sniper rifle Mosin Nagant (Vasili Zaitsev or Simo Hayha, anyone)

Can do 1 MOA upto 800m - can reach out 1.2 kms try and show that with your FAL and its tilting bolt.

2. Mk-12 Special Purpose Rifle for US SOCCOM:

Created out of basic AR-15 format way back in 2002 by the US Navy's Special Warfare school. Fires 5.56x45 "intermediate" catridge (special Blackhills MK262 is preferred choice) Has proven track record and fires out to 800 yards with a grouping of 1.5 odd MOA.
How, you ask? Free floating gas barrel, 18inch barrel with a 1:7 twist

3. Mk14 EBR:

the DMR variant of the M14 battle rifle. Fires 7.62x51 NATO. Can reach out 1.2 km and has proven combat kills of same range. Excellent DMR with sub 1 MOA in the 800m range. A true bridge between DMRs and Sniper Rifles. All that is left is to try it out with 6.5 Creedmoor.

4. H&K G28:

This is the enhanced version of the HK417, (very similar to the SIGs we are getting, btw) and are famed for their accuracy (all german guns are ). Sub 1 MOA out to 800ms and with good ammo - this rifle can do wonders.

Standard issue DMR for US Army infantry units, btw. Replacing the old M40s and Knights Armaments SR25s.

There's a running theme throughout this list:

1. Rotating bolt instead of tilting bolt (no modern gun uses tilting bolts btw)
2. Free floating barrels
3. 1:7 or lesser twist rate
4. effective range of atleast 800m and 1 MOA.

FAL CANNOT achieve the last because it doesnt have the first three.

Simple facts. Hope you understand.

 

[Kchontha]

GLAD you brought up the Argnetinian upgrade of FALs- what is their engagement range - 650m. IS that enough for your average DMR?

This is the new FAMTD btw:

lets compare the 650m engagement limit with well known DMRs used the world over (including our own DMRs).

1. SVD Dragunov:
Fires the venerable 7.62x54R round which dates back to the OG sniper rifle Mosin Nagant (Vasili Zaitsev or Simo Hayha, anyone)

Can do 1 MOA upto 800m - can reach out 1.2 kms try and show that with your FAL and its tilting bolt.

2. Mk-12 Special Purpose Rifle for US SOCCOM:

Created out of basic AR-15 format way back in 2002 by the US Navy's Special Warfare school. Fires 5.56x45 "intermediate" catridge (special Blackhills MK262 is preferred choice) Has proven track record and fires out to 800 yards with a grouping of 1.5 odd MOA.
How, you ask? Free floating gas barrel, 18inch barrel with a 1:7 twist

3. Mk14 EBR:

the DMR variant of the M14 battle rifle. Fires 7.62x51 NATO. Can reach out 1.2 km and has proven combat kills of same range. Excellent DMR with sub 1 MOA in the 800m range. A true bridge between DMRs and Sniper Rifles. All that is left is to try it out with 6.5 Creedmoor.

4. H&K G28:

This is the enhanced version of the HK417, (very similar to the SIGs we are getting, btw) and are famed for their accuracy (all german guns are ). Sub 1 MOA out to 800ms and with good ammo - this rifle can do wonders.

Standard issue DMR for US Army infantry units, btw. Replacing the old M40s and Knights Armaments SR25s.

There's a running theme throughout this list:

1. Rotating bolt instead of tilting bolt (no modern gun uses tilting bolts btw)
2. Free floating barrels
3. 1:7 or lesser twist rate
4. effective range of atleast 800m and 1 MOA.

FAL CANNOT achieve the last because it doesnt have the first three.

Simple facts. Hope you understand.

Alright! My point was fal can be modernised into a DMR and a battle rifle. For that also I gave you an example of its modernisation with Argentinian one. Still if you fail to understand then that is your own problem.

Here goes further explanation for dumb heads.

A DMR (designated marksman rifle) is a typical assault or battle rifle that has a scope on it and sometimes a longer barrel, bipod, free float handguard or special ammunition. It can be used by anyone in the unit, whoever gets the DMR becomes the DM. It is meant to supplement a regular squad or platoon by giving them the ability to engage targets at distances slightly longer than the regular issued weapons are good for. It is a middle ground weapon between assault rifles and what a sniper is capable of with his specialized rifle.

All a DMR has to do is be able to hit a torso-sized target out to six or seven hundred meters, and be mounted with an optic that makes that viable. This is what a fal was capable of doing. Beyond that range it is the jobs of the other specialised weapon including the dedicated Sniper rifle. OK don't let yourself confused by mixing things.

Finally do you think that tweaking a gun's internal mechanism is rocket science?

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[binayak95]

Alright! My point was fal can be modernised into a DMR and a battle rifle. For that also I gave you an example of its modernisation with Argentinian one. Still if you fail to understand then that is your own problem.

Here goes further explanation for dumb heads.

A DMR (designated marksman rifle) is a typical assault or battle rifle that has a scope on it and sometimes a longer barrel, bipod, free float handguard or special ammunition. It can be used by anyone in the unit, whoever gets the DMR becomes the DM. It is meant to supplement a regular squad or platoon by giving them the ability to engage targets at distances slightly longer than the regular issued weapons are good for. It is a middle ground weapon between assault rifles and what a sniper is capable of with his specialized rifle.

All a DMR has to do is be able to hit a torso-sized target out to six or seven hundred meters, and be mounted with an optic that makes that viable. This is what a fal was capable of doing. Beyond that range it is the jobs of the other specialised weapon including the dedicated Sniper rifle. OK don't let yourself confused by mixing things.

Finally do you think that tweaking a gun's internal mechanism is rocket science?

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Hey prabhu - you just quoted word for word a Wiki article. Dig a bit deeper and understand from real life users about the issues of the FAL. Go to good gun forums like AR-15.com and others.

Just how much fighting do the Argentinians do?

Torso size target at 600-700 metres is 1.5 MOA! A FAL cannot do 1.5 MOA beyond 400m because of its inherent faults. It was never designed to be precise!

And yes, tweaking changing the barrel twist rate and changing the bolt's battery mechanism is not rocket science - but Why the hell do you want to go through all that trouble when you ALREADY have thousands of Dragunovs in STOCK?!

Much ado about nothing is what - and besides you and me having a debate here doesnt matter a whit - the IA already has Dragunovs in DMR role (assisted by INSAS LMG, btw) and the SFs have their Galatz. Nobody wants an accurized FAL. The Argentinians are going that route because they dont have money.
And as far as snipers are concerned, they are sub 1MOA guns capable of ensuring hits at 1km and plus. SUB -1MOA. Talking of guns like PSG-1 and L-115A3 and Remington R700 - etc etc.
All the guns that I mentioned in the post were DMRs in use by armies that actually fight Low Intensity Conflicts and Asymmetric threats - situations that demand the use of DMRs.

Do you, btw, understand 1 MOA?