Small arms of India

[Vorschlaghammer]

Butstock should also be modified to a newer and modern one.

FAL Para conversion needs new lower receiver and buttstock, bolt carrier, recoil spring, and top cover. Relatively simple.

 

[Kchontha]

Any word on the Indian Army delegation which went abroad to select a rifle to replace the current rifle.

It is long and very cumbersome process to get the new rifle at all. So many rifles have been tested and rejected that there does not seem to be an end in sight.

Don't worry at the end of their rendezvous they will be zeroing in either Israeli maal or caracal.

 

[Saichand K]

Modified SLR turned into a DMR

Looks sheek and a cost effective solution.

 

[Enquirer]

I am new to learn about Desi guns and I am interested to know about the successful indigenous guns which are with Army/SF other than the standard INSAS rifle. I have gone through the thread but find it confusing. If someone can give a summary, would be great.

If your quest is to know about indigenous guns successfully inducted into the army, then you've already summarized it for yourself - INSAS!!!
All other guns in IA are foreign designs (either directly imported or license produced in India).
Ghatak, Excalibur, Amogh etc have found some acceptance in other wings of Indian security - but not army!

 

[ALBY]

The Print has a good account of Indian Army quest for a modern rifle.

https://theprint.in/security/while-...rifle-a-hi-tech-one-is-made-in-chambal/81520/

It's a paid up article by IWI.
Even after analysing after a million times couldn't get how a 7.62*51 mm rifle will act as an assault rifle..Yes thy are more leathal than a 5.56 or 7.62*39 rifle.But the low ammo carrying capacity,high recoil and heavy weight of the weapon defeats the assault purpose.Those 7.62*51 rifles couldn't be used for laying suppressive fire with much ease due to its recoil..These were the reasons why army switched to 5.56 earlier.If these new gen rifles were that much controllable then US army would have inducted thethem.in large numbers in Iraq and Afghanistan .Neither Israel is inducting the 7.62s unless it is for support roles.
Going for a better 5.56 rifle like M27 IAR or a rifle in 6.8 or .300 blackout ammo will satisfy all the cureecu needs.

 

[Enquirer]

It's a paid up article by IWI.
Even after analysing after a million times couldn't get how a 7.62*51 mm rifle will act as an assault rifle..Yes thy are more leathal than a 5.56 or 7.62*39 rifle.But the low ammo carrying capacity,high recoil and heavy weight of the weapon defeats the assault purpose.Those 7.62*51 rifles couldn't be used for laying suppressive fire with much ease due to its recoil..These were the reasons why army switched to 5.56 earlier.If these new gen rifles were that much controllable then US army would have inducted thethem.in large numbers in Iraq and Afghanistan .Neither Israel is inducting the 7.62s unless it is for support roles.
Going for a better 5.56 rifle like M27 IAR or a rifle in 6.8 or .300 blackout ammo will satisfy all the cureecu needs.

The downsides of the 7.62x51 caliber are all correct.
However US came pretty close recently to change out their standard issue to 7.62x51. The big reason for that was the Afghan experience. They found their platoons completely outmatched in firepower/range by the guns carried by Taliban. They actually brought out 60 years old M14s to compensate...

 

[ALBY]

The downsides of the 7.62x51 caliber are all correct.
However US came pretty close recently to change out their standard issue to 7.62x51. The big reason for that was the Afghan experience. They found their platoons completely outmatched in firepower/range by the guns carried by Taliban. They actually brought out 60 years old M14s to compensate...

M27s are a a solution for that..They are now considering arming the whole marine battalions with M27 replacing M4s.They could have bought HK417s replacing M4s,but they didn't ,its simple because of the side effects of 7.62*51.
There are new rounds like .300 blackout ,6.8 etc which offer better ballistics.Why army is reluctant to test their feasibility.Buying a $1799 Galil or Tavor for your regular soldier is nothing but a waste of money.

 

[Narasimh]

If your quest is to know about indigenous guns successfully inducted into the army, then you've already summarized it for yourself - INSAS!!!
All other guns in IA are foreign designs (either directly imported or license produced in India).
Ghatak, Excalibur, Amogh etc have found some acceptance in other wings of Indian security - but not army!

not just inducted ones with Army.. want to know if some promising development going on. Sandip Unnithan's Videos are showing JVPC and 7.62 51 as good. If para and other SF have accepted the guns you mentioned, what is army's requirement that is not being met by these guns but is being met by the INSAS?

 

[ezsasa]

not just inducted ones with Army.. want to know if some promising development going on. Sandip Unnithan's Videos are showing JVPC and 7.62 51 as good. If para and other SF have accepted the guns you mentioned, what is army's requirement that is not being met by these guns but is being met by the INSAS?

maybe some refinement is going on in 762, other than that don't think any new work is going on in assault rifles. even MCIWS/AAR is officially closed.

next awaited weapon is belt fed 762 LMG

 

[Enquirer]

not just inducted ones with Army.. want to know if some promising development going on. Sandip Unnithan's Videos are showing JVPC and 7.62 51 as good. If para and other SF have accepted the guns you mentioned, what is army's requirement that is not being met by these guns but is being met by the INSAS?

It's not that INSAS is better than the other recent designs of OFB/DRDO, it's just that INSAS was inducted 20 years ago and is the incumbent.
Most other assault rifles designed by OFB/DRDO are an improvement over INSAS, but Army feels that the improvement is not sufficient enough.
After having decided on the required caliber, range & rate of fire etc, armies normally test the rifles on the basis of accuracy, reliability (numbers of rounds fired before jamming), weight, ability to accessorize etc.
The final decision on an rifle is normally based on some weighted average of all its attributes.

From a development process, its always iterative. Test, find flaws, fix - & repeat cycle. IA is known to send weapon systems back to drawing board & test cycles for minor adjustments. All of which is fine if all of it is done within the available timeframe. It's all a matter of the system's ability to mature before IA's absolute deadline for inducting a new system.

Paramilitary forces firstly come under a different ministry - their available budgets are different & the decisions made by them are independent of IA's. Secondly army has a different fighting doctrine compared to the paramilitary. As such the choice of weapons could differ. (IA would be expected to be more stringent in their choice)

 

[Abhi9]

Nothing to it. Corrupt army generals are and their comissions in cohorts with defence babus.thats the only plain justification. Every other assessment is just pure horse shit coming out of ex / current officers entiteled ass. Every justification provides by civvies is met same old rehotrical answer " you are not at front line ".

Even after this nations gives these officers everthing they still feel entiteled to the notion that they should be not be questioned .what ever say they is the absolute thruth and should be taken as is. Typical british royal infian army bullshit.

Such an stagnant and corrupt force that these generals victories lies on the coffins of thousand or Jawans. Just because these ass wipes are incompetent to eveb formulate a proper gsqr and then to change it every other just in name of obsoleteness. What a sheer farce.

Idea is simple. Just keep indian program under continous development cycles by changing gsqr, if the india product is really good, add additional demands that you read in pamphlet while having importef whisky from an arms dalla. And then put the blame that indian products/ scientists are not good enough. Horse shit as usual

They shoukd be investigated for their offline foriegn trnsactions/ kids in us univetsities / properties outside india.

 

[Hari Sud]

Again, any results from the high powered Indian Army delegation which went abroad two months to make a final selection of battle or assault rifle for the Army.

Or was it another excercise in futility.

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

Again, any results from the high powered Indian Army delegation which went abroad two months to make a final selection of battle or assault rifle for the Army.

Or was it another excercise in futility.

No after selection of top 5 rifles & carbines each company with it's contender will come to India for field trials. Then winner will be announced & whole process gonna take 3-5 months. We may see new rifle & carbine by the year end.

 

[Hari Sud]

I would say, three to five years like the last trial round.

 

[ALBY]

View attachment 26987
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It must have cost OFB, millions of rupees and years of research to chisel out that tiny slantness in the gastube of Bulgarian arsenal rifle and create an ultra modern rifle named TAR..
Developed by OFB trichy..What a losers...
Darra guys in Pakistan makes better improvements in Kalashnikov designs .

 

[Enquirer]

It must have cost OFB, millions of rupees and years of research to chisel out that tiny slantness in the gastube of Bulgarian arsenal rifle and create an ultra modern rifle named TAR..
Developed by OFB trichy..What a losers...
Darra guys in Pakistan makes better improvements in Kalashnikov designs .

For all those criticizing India for being incapable of reverse engineering as their Chinese neighbor does....OFB has answered

That said, Kalashnikovs had frowned upon India's attempt to clone AK47s, so India kept the external design same but changed the internal mechanism to that of INSAS!!!

 

[Enquirer]

So after months of scratching my head at the small arms mess the picture has emerged

70,000+ foreign rifles under FTP
90,000+ foreign carbines under FTP

180,000 OFB 7.62 NATO rifles (if it passes trails)
550,000 foreign rifles *or* OFB 7.62 NATO rifles

75,000 JVPC
200,000+ foreign carbines *or* JVPC (If it meets standards)

(FTP= fast track procurement)

Worst case scenario for carbine role 3 *different* rifles could be in service (FTP, OFB and then whatever wins the MII deal) and 3 different carbines

That’s SIX different weapons systems

When every other army has a SINGLE rifle/carbine


Even the best case scenario is FOUR different small arms (FTP rifle/carbine, JVPC and OFB 7.62*51 rifle)

I mean who the hell in MOD is okaying this nonsense?

I don’t like making these claims but goddamn the Army makes it hard not to allege corruption.

Time and again they scupper domestic efforts by imposing ridiculous ASQRs just so they can justify imports.

No other nation on earth would consider importing ONE MILLION carbines+rifles.

Imagine the damage this will do, can send a rocket to mars but can’t even build a decent rifle.

Has IA approved JVPC?
Thought they're back to looking for Mp9 kind of carbines!

 

[ALBY]

So after months of scratching my head at the small arms mess the picture has emerged

70,000+ foreign rifles under FTP
90,000+ foreign carbines under FTP

180,000 OFB 7.62 NATO rifles (if it passes trails)
550,000 foreign rifles *or* OFB 7.62 NATO rifles

75,000 JVPC
200,000+ foreign carbines *or* JVPC (If it meets standards)

(FTP= fast track procurement)

Worst case scenario for carbine role 3 *different* rifles could be in service (FTP, OFB and then whatever wins the MII deal) and 3 different carbines

That’s SIX different weapons systems

When every other army has a SINGLE rifle/carbine


Even the best case scenario is FOUR different small arms (FTP rifle/carbine, JVPC and OFB 7.62*51 rifle)

I mean who the hell in MOD is okaying this nonsense?

I don’t like making these claims but goddamn the Army makes it hard not to allege corruption.

Time and again they scupper domestic efforts by imposing ridiculous ASQRs just so they can justify imports.

No other nation on earth would consider importing ONE MILLION carbines+rifles.

Imagine the damage this will do, can send a rocket to mars but can’t even build a decent rifle.

What is the need for JVPC in the era of short barrelled rifles ? Apart from designed by Ofb/ Drdo there is no merit in selecting it.As the new age short barellef ARs in 5.56x45 could do that role minimising need of creating a new ammo assembly line and new set of spare parts .
The carbines and rifles could be most probably short barrel and regular ones of same weapon.
Selecting two different models for strike units and support units makes sense if loif looked from economic terms .

 

[binayak95]

What is the need for JVPC in the era of short barrelled rifles ? Apart from designed by Ofb/ Drdo there is no merit in selecting it.As the new age short barellef ARs in 5.56x45 could do that role minimising need of creating a new ammo assembly line and new set of spare parts .
The carbines and rifles could be most probably short barrel and regular ones of same weapon.
Selecting two different models for strike units and support units makes sense if loif looked from economic terms .

A couple of issues. Tank crews, helo crews (basically people who need Personnel Defense Weapons) cannot carry a M4A1-esque carbine primarily because of space constraints.

so, why not give them 10" carbines? Well, the AR-15 family are all Direct Impingement guns and when you cut such guns' barrels to less than 12 inches or so, you mess up the gas system and will have issues such as improper cycling, failure to extract, etc etc. Not good. So, you really have to switch to SMGs and PDWs which fire rounds that are bigger than pistol rounds and smaller than Assault Rifle rounds.
Thus, JVPC, MP7, FN P90...

 

[Vinod DX9]

Indian Defence Updates says INSAS will be replaced by one of three mentioned guns