Small arms of India

[AbRaj]

IMO Ghatak is more maintenance friendly then AK Alpha due to minimum removable part involved for same amount of maintenance. We too do follow Russian example of ugly but rugged system with minimal maintenance headache.
Moreover as far as news goes, Ghatak is widely being used by Paramilitary including BSF and ITBP.

I have seen a video of an American guy reviewing AK Alfa ,and he disassembled the entire thing with push of few button within seconds ,very Ak like.
Also Alfa is better protected against dirt and foreign object.

The gun’s features include:

• An adjustable cheek rest
• An adjustable buttstock
• Modular, swappable buttpads
• Modular pistol grip contour
• Sealed, waterproof batterycompartment in the grip
• Ambidextrous magazine release
• Ambidextrous, AR-15-style 90-degree throw safety
• Left/right swappable charging handle
• Interchangeable charging handle profiles
• Forearm with removable Picatinny rail sections

The rifle is named “AK-Alfa”, after the famous Russian special forces team

 

[Chinmoy]

I have seen a video of an American guy reviewing AK Alfa ,and he disassembled the entire thing with push of few button within seconds ,very Ak like.
Also Alfa is better protected against dirt and foreign object.

The gun’s features include:

• An adjustable cheek rest
• An adjustable buttstock
• Modular, swappable buttpads
• Modular pistol grip contour
• Sealed, waterproof batterycompartment in the grip
• Ambidextrous magazine release
• Ambidextrous, AR-15-style 90-degree throw safety
• Left/right swappable charging handle
• Interchangeable charging handle profiles
• Forearm with removable Picatinny rail sections

The rifle is named “AK-Alfa”, after the famous Russian special forces team

May be another thing which our armed forces would not like is its overall polymer furniture. Our armed forces have well known affinity towards rugged wooden as well as stamped metal furniture .

@Kunal Biswas could perhaps share some insight on love towards old world charm here :biggrin2:

 

[AbRaj]

May be another thing which our armed forces would not like is its overall polymer furniture. Our armed forces have well known affinity towards rugged wooden as well as stamped metal furniture .

@Kunal Biswas could perhaps share some insight on love towards old world charm here :biggrin2:

Its human nature. They don't like to change.
Also true for gigantic institutions like Indian Armed Forces.
We don't like war ,we don't like to kill others but we have to.
Similarly army have to upgrade itself to be competitive in multiple threat scnerio we are facing in south Asia.
Part of the reason that our army is stuck with Soviet era machinery is the same attitude you're saying.
Army was once happy with T72s then Pakistan got T84 oplots and army suddenly found itself in serious disvantage and suddenly they demanded heavy tanks like Arjun and T90s.
Also Pakistani army upgraded itself with time IA stuck with vintage weapons.
Even till now army is using Dragunov for marksman role while pakis sniper s are killing ours with modern SSG 69 and M82s
And I am not saying that SVD are bad ,its just not a dedicated sniper.
IA need some serious rethink of its strategies and operations.

 

[SilentKiller]

There is nothing shortage of anything, Just simple training and follow up of old procedure ..

For example, 1B1 has rail for mounting optics and their is optics for 1B1 but not issued to every solider.

Why?
Isn't this wrong..
All soldiers should be issued some sort of sights / optics like laser, red dot..I have heard army stopping operations at night...why so?
do some units lack enough night vision sights.
lastly i heard that BEL only produces old 2nd gen sights not latest 3rd gen, is this true?

 

[Chinmoy]

Its human nature. They don't like to change.
Also true for gigantic institutions like Indian Armed Forces.
We don't like war ,we don't like to kill others but we have to.
Similarly army have to upgrade itself to be competitive in multiple threat scnerio we are facing in south Asia.
Part of the reason that our army is stuck with Soviet era machinery is the same attitude you're saying.
Army was once happy with T72s then Pakistan got T84 oplots and army suddenly found itself in serious disvantage and suddenly they demanded heavy tanks like Arjun and T90s.
Also Pakistani army upgraded itself with time IA stuck with vintage weapons.
Even till now army is using Dragunov for marksman role while pakis sniper s are killing ours with modern SSG 69 and M82s
And I am not saying that SVD are bad ,its just not a dedicated sniper.
IA need some serious rethink of its strategies and operations.

Don't get so critical. Actually they too have their own set of reasons.
Polymer furniture tends to get cracked in changing extreme environmental condition. So forces want a system which should work in freezing heights of Siachen to heat of Thar. Saline marsh of Runn to mangrove marsh of Sunderbans. Snads of Rajasthan to rain of Mawsynram. Now any part of polymer at any time would crack in any of these conditions and when it happens it needs immediate replacement. But with old wooden ones, a few nails would do for time being.

 

[AbRaj]

Don't get so critical. Actually they too have their own set of reasons.
Polymer furniture tends to get cracked in changing extreme environmental condition. So forces want a system which should work in freezing heights of Siachen to heat of Thar. Saline marsh of Runn to mangrove marsh of Sunderbans. Snads of Rajasthan to rain of Mawsynram. Now any part of polymer at any time would crack in any of these conditions and when it happens it needs immediate replacement. But with old wooden ones, a few nails would do for time being.

Sir almost all "modern forces" now using polymers over the bulky woods . that's pretty much tells opposite to your point.
Even our Neelkamals mags are now doing pretty well in extreme colds and hot deserts

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Easier said then done, Everything takes time for test and improvement, Their are no shortcuts, It took 3-2 years to implement the upgrade ideas after countless user trails and improvements.

We used to have debates such as this far back 2012 abt how to improve 1B1, Just like you are talking now.
Source : http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/insas-indian-small-arms-system.12708/page-51

Whatever conclusion we came to back then, The results are now in 2016, Its a coincident that Ideas matches the ideas of IA design department which put similar requirement in 2015.

2012, Credit goes to Tom from MP.net

MK1C came out in similar config in 2016 by OFB under Army.

Regarding not having SCAR type butt-stock : In close hand to hand combat a rifle butt and bayonet comes handly, With bayonet i can rip his body and with butt of the rifle i can pop his brains out, Now i cannot do that with a fiber made 'fn scar like butt stock with cheek adjust', I need either wood or metal to do that, And newer MK1C features a metal fold-able butt-stock for that very purpose unlike MK1A with fiber.

Now for further development, Army wants MICWS which will incorporate the ideas you are speaking, But remember many of these ideas don`t survive harsh battlefield facts, Hence the design will change.

Every year or more so there are tenders out for INSAS 1b1 parts, The L1 contender does not have to be Neelkamals again, It can be any other private co.

========================

BEL provides third generation PNS, The older though still in service..

That's why I am asking. If we are making a clone ,why not make it better than the original. And it would be better for CT ops like ,RRs etc

BTW its not just aesthetics but precision and usability improvement too

@Kunal Biswas sir can't we modify our assault rifles (aks and specially our Excalibur ) like Israeli's have done with Ak Alfa

They kept the basic ak47 mechanism intact and added few thing s to improve its accuracy and usability. Like
1 handguard with picatinny rail

2 adjustable pistol grip

2 fn scar like butt stock with cheek adjust

3 support for either foregrip or handgrip (rail mounted)
4 ambidextrous charging handle
to name few.
Its surprising Israeli's have done this though they don't use ak's and here we are using ak's and its derivatives as our major assault rifles with ancient WW2 era wooden furniture without modern add on. or some jugad at beat risking soldiers life against well equipped forces (both uniformed and non uniformed. Our arms industry needs some serious reforms.

Sir almost all "modern forces" now using polymers over the bulky woods . that's pretty much tells opposite to your point.Even our Neelkamals mags are now doing pretty well in extreme colds and hot deserts

lastly i heard that BEL only produces old 2nd gen sights not latest 3rd gen, is this true?

 

[aditya g]

Couple of days back i had chat with one of my friends who serves in the crpf doing his duty in manipur.

......

Even though he praised about the sheer killing power of SLR , he told me that they used only in limited numbers and that too mainly as grenade launchers.....

Aha. So that explains why we have CRPF soldiers with SLR. It is not for sniping but for firing Rifle Grenade.

Found a picture after a lot of searching:

@Kunal Biswas

 

[Chinmoy]

Sir almost all "modern forces" now using polymers over the bulky woods . that's pretty much tells opposite to your point.
Even our Neelkamals mags are now doing pretty well in extreme colds and hot deserts

I am very much tempted to use face palm here, but I'd restrain myself from doing that. Anyhow, could you kindly point out any "modern forces" who have to serve in such a diverse climatic or geographical extreme like ours? And could you kindly point out any modern firearm which has performed without a glitch in such different condition?

 

[AbRaj]

Easier said then done, Everything takes time for test and improvement, Their are no shortcuts, It took 3-2 years to implement the upgrade ideas after countless user trails and improvements.

We used to have debates such as this far back 2012 abt how to improve 1B1, Just like you are talking now.
Source : http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/insas-indian-small-arms-system.12708/page-51

Whatever conclusion we came to back then, The results are now in 2016, Its a coincident that Ideas matches the ideas of IA design department which put similar requirement in 2015.

Regarding not having SCAR type butt-stock : In close hand to hand combat a rifle butt and bayonet comes handly, With bayonet i can rip his body and with butt of the rifle i can pop his brains out, Now i cannot do that with a fiber made 'fn scar like butt stock with cheek adjust', I need either wood or metal to do that, And newer MK1C features a metal fold-able butt-stock for that very purpose unlike MK1A with fiber.

Now for further development, Army wants MICWS which will incorporate the ideas you are speaking, But remember many of these ideas don`t survive harsh battlefield facts, Hence the design will change.

Every year or more so there are tenders out for INSAS 1b1 parts, The L1 contender does not have to be Neelkamals again, It can be any other private co.

========================

BEL provides third generation PNS, The older though still in service..

Sir I was not talking about infantry but for special forces who are currently using Aks like RRs .
And to me instead of hand to hand combat using riffles as an object why not train soldiers to use knife like modern forces do?
And we can also use these "modified" aks(as AKs are not going anywhere ), with forces like Cobras and CRPF and can obtain feedbacks ( most likely like we are doing with Excalibur and zittra in past)

BTW these new Excaliburs looks like a step in right direction. Sleeker and modern than old and crude looking 1B1s.

 

[AbRaj]

I am very much tempted to use face palm here, but I'd restrain myself from doing that. Anyhow, could you kindly point out any "modern forces" who have to serve in such a diverse climatic or geographical extreme like ours? And could you kindly point out any modern firearm which has performed without a glitch in such different condition?

US army and NATO forces do it regularly.
BTW which extreme condition you're talking about?
Temp below - 15 c

Or

Scorching heat of Desert

Or
Wet lands

So why you want facepalm?

 

[AbRaj]

@Chinmoy
BTW even Russian forces do not use old aks any more.
Have a look

3in 1

Russian police

I don't understand why so many people are justifying an obsolete technology!
BTW do you still using good old BlackBerry or symbyian phone with tank like construction and weight or switched to sleeker and more usable iPhone or android??

 

[ghost]

" I don't understand why so many people are justifying an obsolete technology!"


Indian way to hide their incompetency,plus we Indians are generally averse to everything new.
30char...............................................

 

[AbRaj]

" I don't understand why so many people are justifying an obsolete technology!"


Indian way to hide their incompetency,plus we Indians are generally averse to everything new.
30char...............................................

Then .303 is way to go
Its very deadly as proved in 26/11 Mumbai raid by "Paki special forces"

 

[ghost]

Then .303 is way to go
Its very deadly as proved in 26/11 Mumbai raid by "Paki special forces"

An ideal combat rifle is not based on a single factor but a combination of many important factors ,which should be taken into consideration as a whole;in selecting the best rifle.

Ammo is just one part,there is recoil,accuracy,weight ,length,ergonomics,option for accessory,ambidextrous,reliability and many more factors that have to be considered while selecting a combat rifle. Harmony among all these factors is key to select a good rifle .

.303 has a huge recoil ,it is uncontrollable in auto and there are not many option available of modern combat rifle in .303 ,so it does not make sense.Terrorist in 26/11 used ak with 7.62x39mm ammo.Indian army is looking for new rifles in 7.62x51mm which imho is good.

 

[India22]

Time to develop a new pistol for Indian army.

 

[AbRaj]

An ideal combat rifle is not based on a single factor but a combination of many important factors ,which should be taken into consideration as a whole;in selecting the best rifle.

Ammo is just one part,there is recoil,accuracy,weight ,length,ergonomics,option for accessory,ambidextrous,reliability and many more factors that have to be considered while selecting a combat rifle. Harmony among all these factors is key to select a good rifle .

.303 has a huge recoil ,it is uncontrollable in auto and there are not many option available of modern combat rifle in .303 ,so it does not make sense.Terrorist in 26/11 used ak with 7.62x39mm ammo.Indian army is looking for new rifles in 7.62x51mm which imho is good.

That was a sarcasm bro.
Maharashtra police used .303

 

[Chinmoy]

@AbRaj ... Did you read what Kota Harinarayan wrote about Mig-21? You could read about that in Tejas home site.
Have you noticed how US and other NATO countries make use of Accuracy international Arctic warfare guns instead of regular HK or COLT.
Have you noticed how Galil failed in IA test which have been done across a varied climatic and environmental condition whereas its one of the most sought after gun.

 

[airtel]

May be another thing which our armed forces would not like is its overall polymer furniture. Our armed forces have well known affinity towards rugged wooden as well as stamped metal furniture .

@Kunal Biswas could perhaps share some insight on love towards old world charm here :biggrin2:

Don't get so critical. Actually they too have their own set of reasons.
Polymer furniture tends to get cracked in changing extreme environmental condition. So forces want a system which should work in freezing heights of Siachen to heat of Thar. Saline marsh of Runn to mangrove marsh of Sunderbans. Snads of Rajasthan to rain of Mawsynram. Now any part of polymer at any time would crack in any of these conditions and when it happens it needs immediate replacement. But with old wooden ones, a few nails would do for time being.

quality of Polymer is also getting better due to research & development .......................All the Modern Riffles around the Use Polymers .................

this is Old Dragunov >

this is Modern version of dragunov

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Training with bayonet mounted or unmounted existed in Indian Army`s training manual since post world war era, RR fights on regular basis hand to hand combat in very close quarters in ambushes and raids, RR is not a special force though.

Looks does not effect combat, It nice though but not a priority.

Sir I was not talking about infantry but for special forces who are currently using Aks like RRs .And to me instead of hand to hand combat using riffles as an object why not train soldiers to use knife like modern forces do?.