Shani temple to Sabarimala..................

[punjab47]

Who cares? Hindus have finally learned from muslims after 1400 years. Don't worry about law,

Riot & you'll get your demands.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

Who cares? Hindus have finally learned from muslims after 1400 years. Don't worry about law,

Riot & you'll get your demands.

The debating is not for convincing jihadis, it's for the fence sitting Hindus.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Why can't people carry pork into mosque, can you tell me the exact IPC section that criminalizes it? If a person walks into a mosque with a piece of pork in his hand, which specific law will he be violating? after all, you are a rational person, you ought to tell us which law is being violated otherwise it will be like an arbitrary law being enforced, or as you loathingly call it 'moral policing'. If there is no law to prevent people from taking pork into mosques and you are stopping them then it's merely moral policing. Do you condone moral policing? then why do you complain about moral policing that happens on Valentine's day? do you have a greater right to indulge in moral policing than say, Bajrang Dal activists?

"You cannot prevet a dalit or women from a plsce of worship while their male vounter parts or other communities are allowed."

You cannot prevent a pork carrying person from entering a mosque if other people are allowed. For example people are allowed to carry flowers in a mosque but not pork, why discriminate against a person who carries pork but allow a person who carries flowers? Isn't that arbitrary, moral policing? For something to be called as a 'rule' it has to be just and equally applied to all, don't you agree?

Mosque is a religious palced and pork is haram for muslims, so it's not allowed, constitution grantees religious institutions or any institutions to to make rules according to their belief system, there are many Hindu, christian rules like this, non religious institutions too have many rules according to the nature and need of their org, it's all allowed under indin constitution, But that laws should not go against constitutional principles of equality and so on. So only SC court has asked the shabarimala temple to sight " reasons " to not allow women, any rule be " reasonable ". SC is looking into the matter, may be you should help the defending party with your " brilliant analogy " to satisfy the SC.

 

[TheRenegades]

While we have gotten so off topic with our discussion, I will say the following and would like steer this discussion thread back to the crux of the topic.

http://patient.info/doctor/child-parent-relationship-and-potential-problems
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-common-todays-Britain-couples-minority.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...at-raising-children-than-married-couples.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/educatio...-in-single-parent-families-worse-behaved.html


If you have read that single parenting is well and dandy in feminist rags, that don't count.

wth, I cant even!... while I am talking about gay couple parenting and straight couple parenting are the same. You are quoting single parenting as the basis of your argument. They are completely different

Have you hear of the saying 'exception proves the rule'? I guess you didn't. Some 1000s of instances in species across the nature, doesn't mean it is 'natural'. How does those species procreate or mutate?

Individual species that wants to procreate will and does procreate. If certain individual in that species are not procreating or choosing otherwise there is no overall loss of the species. I dont understand what mutate mean. Mutation as in biological terms or propagation of the said mutation that happened in a species to its offspring?

? Anyway, I guess it is too early to judge given how it is a new thing and those children born and raised by gay couples are still at their childhood

Anyway, the western society is anyway half-way demented, a little screwed up children cannot be differentiated anyway. More than half of Kids in UK and USA doesn't know united family. What difference can gay parents make?

They will and are growing up just fine. And if you think India society is not half way demented you must be in a dream.

You know why I am against recognising gay people. It is because once they get recognition, they will boast it and gradually like western society, our society will also follow to the way of extra-liberalism. Next they will ask the right to marry and raise kids, and I am opposed to the idea of homosexuals raising children. A child needs both his/her parents as role models. India is still not as bonkers as west because in most families both units of parents stick to their child and provide role models.

Again... Gay couple parenting is not single parenting.

 

[TheRenegades]

Islam : (noun) : A religion of peace.

You are a riot and have a knack for coming with your own word definitions. keep on the zealotry... :bs:

 

[A chauhan]

Hindu Gods are not so weak getting dirty on a touch by a woman, so lets leave it here and move on, Hindu Laws have provided better rights to women, if woman wants to touch the deity let them touch at their own risk, BTW there are many temples where even men except the Pujaris can not touch the deity just because of hygiene since women have Menstrual Cycle which is considered a period of impurity, it's all about tradition.

It's not a big dispute, Hindus will sort this out without any bloodshed, most probably women will win.

So lets not fight on this, it will show Hindus in a unjustifiable bad light, which the anti-Hindu people want.

The thread has lived up its life, I am unsubscribing it now.

@mods @pmaitra , @Sakal Gharelu Ustad please consider closing this thread if you deem fit !

 

[punjab47]

Hindu Gods are not so weak getting dirty on a touch by a woman, so lets leave it here and move on, Hindu Laws have provided better rights to women, if woman wants to touch the deity let them touch at their own risk, BTW there are many temples where even men except the Pujaris can not touch the deity just because of hygiene since women have Menstrual Cycle which is considered a period of impurity, it's all about tradition.

It's not a big dispute, Hindus will sort this out without any bloodshed, most probably women will win.

So lets not fight on this, it will show Hindus in a unjustifiable bad light, which the anti-Hindu people want.

The thread has lived up its life, I am unsubscribing it now.

@mods @pmaitra , @Sakal Gharelu Ustad please consider closing this thread if you deem fit !

Yes, the women who worship the diety & will not touch him will win. You are right Chauhan.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

What is the use of worshipping little girls when you or your Shani Dev can't protect her from sexual predators.

That's very bad logic. What benefit someone gets form worshiping any deity and whether the gains are commensurate to justify continued reverence is upto the individual worshiper to decide for themselves. No worshiper claims that his act of worship will benefit someone else, neither does any scripture claim it. Religion is a personal matter for the person indulging in it. If I go to the gym to get a fit body, my neighbor obviously isn't going to be benefited from my exercises. It's foolish to say that because my neighbor doesn't receive any benefit from my visits to the gym, therefore my expeditions to the gym are nugatory.

Same goes for matters of religion. People can't be made to stop visiting temples because there is crime in the society, conversely I don't remember any religious person claiming that visiting temples would reduce crime in society. These are mutually exclusive events.

If you want to talk about crime and ways to reduce it, it is a legitimate concern but please direct your concern to the relevant authorities. Don't blame temples for all the problems that society faces. A temple is not the place where society's problems are solved. If you feel that going to the temple bestows no dividends then, by all means, feel free to stop visiting temples, but please don't sit in your high chair and make pompous comments to invalidate the feelings of those who do.

I am an atheist, I never visit temples, but it's people like you who give atheism a bad name. Don't wash all your dirty Marxist linen at the doorstep of Hindu temples.

 

[DingDong]

I refuse to be part of any religious ceremony, never visit temples, have serious disagreements with religious texts. But I refuse to adopt the Western version of Atheism. I am a Hindu Atheist, I am extremely proud of my ancestry and history.

I am convinced that that my dignity and survival is tied to the survival of Hindutva.

I support reforms, I support gender equality, I support Freedom of Expression, I do not support vandalism and leftist extremism.

 

[sasum]

If I go to the gym to get a fit body, my neighbor obviously isn't going to be benefited from my exercises. It's foolish to say that because my neighbor doesn't receive any benefit from my visits to the gym, therefore my expeditions to the gym are nugatory.

You got the drift but trying to divert. Just out of courtesy I didn't say "Why worship your little girl when you have predatory intent on your neibhour's one" Anyway if you start nitpicking and profer dubious arguments, the main issue will not be properly discussed and the scourge will remain and flourish under the patronage of foggy brained people like @jackprince .I have many times reiterated, Hinduism is great because of its heritage and learning and not Superstition and obscurantism. A progressive guy argues with logic.. in the process both learns and teaches. A fog tries to justify everything with abusive, impotent rant.

 

[sasum]

I refuse to be part of any religious ceremony, never visit temples, have serious disagreements with religious texts. But I refuse to adopt the Western version of Atheism. I am a Hindu Atheist, I am extremely proud of my ancestry and history.

I am convinced that that my dignity and survival is tied to the survival of Hindutva.

I support reforms, I support gender equality, I support Freedom of Expression, I do not support vandalism and leftist extremism.

You largely echo my sentiment.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

You got the drift but trying to divert. Just out of courtesy I didn't say "Why worship your little girl when you have predatory intent on your neibhour's one" Anyway if you start nitpicking and profer dubious arguments, the main issue will not be properly discussed and the scourge will remain and flourish under the patronage of foggy brained people like @jackprince .I have many times reiterated, Hinduism is great because of its heritage and learning and not Superstition and obscurantism. A progressive guy argues with logic.. in the process both learns and teaches. A fog tries to justify everything with abusive, impotent rant.

It's not just about the sanctum sanctorum, per se. It's the means that are being used to do it that raises red flags. I'm all for an internal dialogue among Hindus for reform, but we should make sure that we don't lend our voices to wolves from outside our community who seek to use these issues for their own gains. Given the dubious credentials of the group that is currently leading the protest (that Desai lady is an AAP member, converted to Christianity 3 years ago, according to Twitter), one would expect 'proud Hindus' to stay away from such maliciously groups. It's important to raise voices for good things but it's also necessary to keep an eye on the net beneficiary of your actions. Please contemplate how the status quo will be changed as a result of any protest, before partaking in it. Is it going to lead to any real progress for women rights or is this being done simply to create turmoil, as is the standard operating procedure for Marxists funded by Christian missionaries?

Let's not be so fickle and join in any movement just because cosmetically it seems to be agreeing with us. Deep down the agenda is different.

Anyway let's end this fight here. Please accept this clip from Pakistani Television as a token of my friendship


@Indx TechStyle

 

[sasum]

No faith in this world is perfect.. but Buddhism & Sikhism are closer to perfection because these are willing to evolve and they have taken the right ingredients from Hinduism. They don't go by the diktats of a few cunning holy men. They put humanity above empty rituals. Do you know in Waste Bengal, malnourished young girls from impoverished households are sent to Shiv Mandir to pour milk over Shiva's linga. The pious parents never realize the child needs the milk more than the Shivlinga. Similarly you must have heard about the obnoxious Devdasi "Pratha" in Orissa, Karnataka etc. We can go on but my goal is not to berate Hinduism, rather think how to stem the rot and salvage it.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

No faith in this world is perfect.. but Buddhism & Sikhism are closer to perfection because these are willing to evolve and they have taken the right ingredients from Hinduism. They don't go by the diktats of a few cunning holy men. They put humanity above empty rituals. Do you know in Waste Bengal, malnourished young girls from impoverished households are sent to Shiv Mandir to pour milk over Shiva's linga. The pious parents never realize the child needs the milk more than the Shivlinga. Similarly you must have heard about the obnoxious Devdasi "Pratha" in Orissa, Karnataka etc. We can go on but my goal is not to berate Hinduism, rather think how to stem the rot and salvage it.

As I said, if people like you initiate the reform, then I don't think that anyone will be offended. The reason people are getting offended with the Shani temple case is because this is just a bunch of Marxists with Hindu names trying to bulldoze their way into Hindu places with no respect for due process (legal or social). Take for example the anti-superstition law. It was supported by everyone because we were all appalled at the kind of things that were happening in the name of faith. But then, there was a case where Christians claimed that a statue of Mary started squirting blood and Christians claimed it as a miracle. When a rationalist tried to reason with them that this is merely a plumbing issue, Christians all over India filed 200 criminal cases against him. He had to leave the country and run away. How come this anti-superstition law wasn't used then? Take the recent example of the crook Mother Teresa receiving the dubious distinction of having performed a miracle. How come the courts don't take suo motto action against this superstition? On the contrary Mamta Begum tweeted a note of congratulations.

Are these laws and so called reforms only meant to corner Hindus? We need social reform, and social reform should be truly social for it to be effective and widespread. But when we try to bulldoze our way by imposing legal curbs on people even before the society has had a chance to have a wholesome internal dialogue about the nature of reforms that are needed, people take it as an intrusion. A society needs to go through long internal debates for there to be lasting change against long held rigid beliefs. After all, we took 30 years to make up our mind that socialism was bad for us and then we slowly started neo-liberal reforms.

This repeated meddling in Hindu affairs will give rise to a Hindu insurgency that will negate all the progress that we have made over all these years. Talk about it, make movies, write books, hold conferences in schools and colleges, build consensus. Hiring a helicopter and jumping into the Shani temple one fine sunny afternoon, is that the kind of reform we want to endorse? Are we naively oblivious to the fact that this was a malicious act?

 

[punjab47]

Lol jumping into mandir? The backlash is inevitable, so w/e we can reform after eliminating melechas.

 

[asingh10]

Hinduism does not survive because of philosophy in Vedas or Upanishads. It survives because of its rituals, festivals, customs and connections. Sikhism and Buddhism definitely have rituals, you should go and see what Nihangs and Vajryana Buddhists do instead of listening to some rhetorical crap. The aversion to rituals is import of "Protestant literalism" stressing primacy of sacred text/spirituality over rituals and tradition thanks to colonial legacy.

Rituals and festivals are the first thing that Christians attacked pagans over in Rome, Greece, Egypt. Starting with emperor Constantine, they passed edict after edict banning rituals, idolatory, festivals. Its funny watching some deracinated urban Hindus repeat the same arguments of their enemies to destroy their own religion. A bit like Kalidas, cutting the very branch of the tree he was sitting on.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Hinduism does not survive because of philosophy in Vedas or Upanishads. It survives because of its rituals, festivals, customs and connections. Sikhism and Buddhism definitely have rituals, you should go and see what Nihangs and Vajryana Buddhists do instead of listening to some rhetorical crap. The aversion to rituals is import of "Protestant literalism" stressing primacy of sacred text/spirituality over rituals and tradition thanks to colonial legacy.

Rituals and festivals are the first thing that Christians attacked pagans over in Rome, Greece, Egypt. Starting with emperor Constantine, they passed edict after edict banning rituals, idolatory, festivals. Its funny watching some deracinated urban Hindus repeat the same arguments of their enemies to destroy their own religion. A bit like Kalidas, cutting the very branch of the tree he was sitting on.

Those who have not studied Buddhism or visited their temples are clueless deracinated Hindus. Buddhists apply strict gender segregation and do most of the rituals that Hindus do.

Just visit Bhutan to see penis figures over all houses which supposedly chase away the evil spirit!!

 

[archie]

I belive Pork eating person can enter the mosque, you cannont carry pork meat into mosque. There are many such rules which governs many institutions religious or non religious, every rule has to make sense and satisfy constitutional requirements.
You cannot prevet a dalit or women from a plsce of worship while their male vounter parts or other communities are allowed.

Really ?? Try taking a woman to mosque without headgear... they are not allowed in the same room...

Or dont carry meat.. just wear a t-shirt saying I LOVE PORK and go to a mosque...

The argument that it is haram is lame change it reform it and come and talk.. dont give bull shit here... FYI there was a fatwa saying women are haram according to ISLAM.. which IS LAME

We have beliefs associated with temples as well .. if you wanna go with it follow it or leave the damn religion who is stopping you?? BTW good luck being if beong Muslim and leaving ISLAM you'd be killed before you can finish running away

 

[archie]

Sorry not every temple is a private property, even in private properties you cannont have irrational gender discrimination, it's all governed by indian laws, you have no basis to be offended if a women touch the feet of a diety, infact it's you hurting the feelings of womens by objecting her touch in the feet of her god.

See the Video again on how she prayed... she touching the idol was not the thing.. the whole approach to how she did it is the outrage... and im not alone in that.. millions of devotees of the temple

 

[sasum]

"Hinduism has not survived because of its Vedas & Upanishads but for its rituals, customs, connections"

Bhang,Charas,Ganja,Alcohol have also survived centuries despite being detrimental to health. Why survived? Bcoz they give a false sense of well-being & euphoria. Same case with vain, irrational Hindu rituals & customes. They cause euphoria, even hubris while they last. Hinduism has survived but is it in good health? Zealots & Bigots have ensured that it remains perpetually on ventilator.