Russia-Pakistan Rapproachment

Pandora

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Re: Deal to sell Pakistan Mi-35 politically approved: Russian envoy to

It is known from sometime, That PAA is into Russian Origin Helicopters, They operate Hind since Russian were in Astan ..







PA were impressed by Indian MI-35 operations in UN, Where once IAF has to make MI-35 sorties to save PA soldiers from African rebels ..

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What they will be getting is little inferior to Indian MI-35 counterparts, But surely will outgun and out range their own Cobra gunships, I am expecting no less than 50 of these ..
Sir they talking about political approved ,how about India to start Ukraine on board for various JV like High power engine. for Ships and tanks,artillery and BVR like R 27. Am not ashamed to accept that Ukraine defence industries are mile ahead than Indian.
 

ghost

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Re: Deal to sell Pakistan Mi-35 politically approved: Russian envoy to

I am "neutral" neither "pro Russian " nor "pro American",I like to make my observation based on :past experience,current ordeals,taking future into perspective.

I am only bias to "Indian interest" and what I see I advocate.

Now let me put things as per my perspective:

1 America:India should invest in American technology but with caution .Us has many problems,it cannot be trusted as it can choke you right at the time of need,there is nothing such as partnership in US dictionary ,there is only US and its subbordinates and I do not want India to become subbordinate to any.You can enter into deep ties over arms with US ,but it will be like selling your soul to devil,your interest may or may not become American interest but you have to cater to every American interest.So to conclude you cannot trust America and trust is the most important factor when depending for arms.


2 Russia :Now come to Russia ,I see lot of people bad mouthing Russia here.To be frank my biased Indian part also feel bad about it,but if I have to analyze from neutral perspective India has forced Russia to do this,we have refused many Russian army over Americans and others and as pointed out by @pmaitra sir it was more than mere technical reasons behind that.+Russia with so many sanctions from west depleting economy need money,money to survive both its economy and its military industrial complex,as such time when its time trusted friend has choose to ignore it what do we expect Russia,commit harakiri by refusing the easy money coming towards it.Same goes with China ,its economic "mazbooris " and new strategic opposition being formed against Russia by US and NATO that are forcing Russia in arms of China.If India has every right to cater to its self interest,then why are people here are not respecting Russia right to pursue its self interest.Do people here know that after Russia ,Israel is the second largest supplier of arms to China.

3 India:Now come to India ,the best way for India is self reliance in arms,as it is the "only" way to become a substantial power in the world and to become one we should cleverly take technical help from whoever and whatever we can take.We should pursue our independent policy"which i feel we have been pursuing till now",but pursuing Independent foreign policy does not mean we should not take care of our friends interest and concerns.When we were weak Russia held our arms give us assistance by going out of his way,so now when we have mature into a power we should not dump them.I want India to become super power ,I want India to take care of its self Interest,but I do not want India to become selfish or self centered like america,I want India to hold hands and support its old trusted and tried friend ,and be its strength at time of its weakness.


Future:To conclude India should expand its defence cooperation with US ,but not at cost of Russia.And we should also make it clear to Russia that we can go anywhere but we are standing with Russia not for buyer or seller relationship but for the special bond we share with Russia.And this bond is far greater than any technology as it will provide rock solid stategic strength to India ,we should convince Russia we do not want to become their competitor in international arm market but equal partner in military hardware production and selling,it's time to enter into joint venture with Russians and dominate the world arms market "together".

PS:These are my views based on how I see things,I am not propagating them as "ultimate truth" if you disagree feel free to.You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.
 
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sgarg

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Re: Deal to sell Pakistan Mi-35 politically approved: Russian envoy to

Sir they talking about political approved ,how about India to start Ukraine on board for various JV like High power engine. for Ships and tanks,artillery and BVR like R 27. Am not ashamed to accept that Ukraine defence industries are mile ahead than Indian.
Ukraine is in no position to fulfill contracts now. You can give the suggestion to GOI though.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Re: Deal to sell Pakistan Mi-35 politically approved: Russian envoy to

The credit of that goes to soviets mostly, Ukrainians simply upgraded existing systems with new technologies, While Indians have to work from ground zero over most major systems ..

I think its wise to work with Ukraine let it be Upgrades of Arjun tank, Turbine engines for ships but keeping strictly business and be smart .. ;)

Sir they talking about political approved ,how about India to start Ukraine on board for various JV like High power engine. for Ships and tanks,artillery and BVR like R 27. Am not ashamed to accept that Ukraine defence industries are mile ahead than Indian.
 

Pandora

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Re: Deal to sell Pakistan Mi-35 politically approved: Russian envoy to

The credit of that goes to soviets mostly, Ukrainians simply upgraded existing systems with new technologies, While Indians have to work from ground zero over most major systems ..

I think its wise to work with Ukraine let it be Upgrades of Arjun tank, Turbine engines for ships but keeping strictly business and be smart .. ;)
Bullzeye sir ,we should develop partnerships with them and they are more than ready to do so to sustain their major source for bread and butter. They can be come handy when it's come to heavy engineering equipments like turbines ,tanks,earth movers but in terms of aerospace too.Now talking about russians they literally showing us their dissatisfaction in third country and kind of revenge by selling their items to pakistan while calling Indians to backstabbing.All because they lost in a fairplay.
 

Zebra

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Re: Deal to sell Pakistan Mi-35 politically approved: Russian envoy to

sirjee i dont think that was the only reson for not buying from americans.
americans wanted us to be like pak was to them.
they wer not willing to share TOT and also russians provided the equipments with no nakhra and also at prices affordable to us. also dont forget the way they saved our ass when US send some ships to attack us.

i feel the current foreign policy of india is the best(non allaince). this way we can have the cake and eat it too.
Really!

I wonder, since when they started all new aircraft manufacturing on JV basis in Pakistan.
 

Zebra

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Re: Deal to sell Pakistan Mi-35 politically approved: Russian envoy to

@Casper, you are asking something that is completely removed from reality. USA supplies to Pakistan as well as India. India IS NOT refusing American weapons because of its supplies to Pakistan.

There is a long history of both India and Pakistan buying from the same supplier country.

So why should Russia be punished for supplying to Pakistan??

I said that perhaps it is good as Russia having influence in Pakistan may work in our favour.
They kept this issue as one of the factor in recent procurements. Check it on MMRCA and submarine tenders/threads.
 
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sgarg

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Re: Deal to sell Pakistan Mi-35 politically approved: Russian envoy to

The credit of that goes to soviets mostly, Ukrainians simply upgraded existing systems with new technologies, While Indians have to work from ground zero over most major systems ..

I think its wise to work with Ukraine let it be Upgrades of Arjun tank, Turbine engines for ships but keeping strictly business and be smart .. ;)
I would prefer to keep miles away from Ukrainians. The current political situation in Ukraine is not good for any defence deal.
I can assure you that nobody in GOI will take the risk now.
 

sgarg

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Re: Deal to sell Pakistan Mi-35 politically approved: Russian envoy to

They kept this issue as one of the factor in recent procurements. Check it on MMRCA and submarine tenders/threads.
I fail to understand your point. I have no time to check this thread. Maybe posters are confused. France IS and HAS BEEN a big supplier to Pakistan. Are you suggesting that MMRCA was given to France despite a condition is the contract?? No Western supplier will take this kind of conditions from India.

France built Pakistan's subs and now building India's. I can assure you that these two subs will have similar technology. Why India didn't refuse Scorpene sub??

There is nothing to discuss here. It is as clear as night and day.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Re: Deal to sell Pakistan Mi-35 politically approved: Russian envoy to

Unlike Russians, Ukrainians know how to keep customers happy, Here is a proposed upgrade for Arjun MK1 by Ukrainians >>

An Ukrainian Effort To Upgrade Arjun MK1






Explosive Reactive Armour
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Combat electronic package
============================



1800hp engine

Transmission with 7 forward gear and 5 backwards

Driver steering and gear control and related electronics

Continue to next post >>



The current political situation in Ukraine is not good for any defence deal. I can assure you that nobody in GOI will take the risk now.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Re: Deal to sell Pakistan Mi-35 politically approved: Russian envoy to




============================
============================


Cannon fired 120mm anti-tank missile
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============================




Mechanized Ammo container
============================
============================




Digital surveillance
@sgarg
 
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Kunal Biswas

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Kunal Biswas

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Re: Deal to sell Pakistan Mi-35 politically approved: Russian envoy to




Air conditioner
@sgarg @Akim

===================

Unlike Russians, Ukrainians are willing to help in matured national defense product, Their can be many applications and the recent is Kolkata Class are using Ukrainian turbine engine instead of Russian once used over Delhi class ..

Their are more Kolkata class yet to be put in water, All of those engines are Ukrainians ..
 
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AVERAGE INDIAN

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Re: Deal to sell Pakistan Mi-35 politically approved: Russian envoy to

Helicopters are nothing new. Pakistan already bought Mi-17s from Russia a decade ago or whenever it was. Mi-35s hardly alter the balance of power against India; more than likely they would be employed in Pakistan's anti-insurgency operations if anything or what ever and Russia is not US they need dollars no money no service and russian equipment are maintenance intensive thats why we have Mods on our weapons half western indian and half russian equipment good luck pakistan
 

sgarg

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Re: Deal to sell Pakistan Mi-35 politically approved: Russian envoy to

@Kunal Biswas, Wake me when Ukraine gets the Arjun upgrade deal. I can tell you it is NOT HAPPENING. Does not matter what Ukraine proposes.

All military deals have political considerations. There is no pure commercial deal as far as armaments are concerned.

A deal with Ukraine is possible ONLY if peace is established in Ukraine and Russia and Ukraine are able to sit across table.
 
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Pandora

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Re: Deal to sell Pakistan Mi-35 politically approved: Russian envoy to

@sgarg @Akim

===================

Unlike Russians, Ukrainians are willing to help in matured national defense product, Their can be many applications and the recent is Kolkata Class are using Ukrainian turbine engine instead of Russian once used over Delhi class ..

Their are more Kolkata class yet to be put in water, All of those engines are Ukrainians ..
Beautiful upgrade plan sir,Just a question how reliable Ukrainian defence equipments are ? What stop Indian to ask Ukraine to help us in armoured vehicles.
 
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anupamsurey

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Re: Deal to sell Pakistan Mi-35 politically approved: Russian envoy to

yes ukranians appear to be more honest business partners, they value agreement, customer satisfaction, time line of production, etc...russians are just arrogant pricks- they give you machines but dont tell you the main string attached to such deals..and by the time you know ...you are doomed.
 

prohumanity

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Re: Deal to sell Pakistan Mi-35 politically approved: Russian envoy to

I am "neutral" neither "pro Russian " nor "pro American",I like to make my observation based on :past experience,current ordeals,taking future into perspective.

I am only bias to "Indian interest" and what I see I advocate.

Now let me put things as per my perspective:

1 America:India should invest in American technology but with caution .Us has many problems,it cannot be trusted as it can choke you right at the time of need,there is nothing such as partnership in US dictionary ,there is only US and its subbordinates and I do not want India to become subbordinate to any.You can enter into deep ties over arms with US ,but it will be like selling your soul to devil,your interest may or may not become American interest but you have to cater to every American interest.So to conclude you cannot trust America and trust is the most important factor when depending for arms.


2 Russia :Now come to Russia ,I see lot of people bad mouthing Russia here.To be frank my biased Indian part also feel bad about it,but if I have to analyze from neutral perspective India has forced Russia to do this,we have refused many Russian army over Americans and others and as pointed out by @pmaitra sir it was more than mere technical reasons behind that.+Russia with so many sanctions from west depleting economy need money,money to survive both its economy and its military industrial complex,as such time when its time trusted friend has choose to ignore it what do we expect Russia,commit harakiri by refusing the easy money coming towards it.Same goes with China ,its economic "mazbooris " and new strategic opposition being formed against Russia by US and NATO that are forcing Russia in arms of China.If India has every right to cater to its self interest,then why are people here are not respecting Russia right to pursue its self interest.Do people here know that after Russia ,Israel is the second largest supplier of arms to China.

3 India:Now come to India ,the best way for India is self reliance in arms,as it is the "only" way to become a substantial power in the world and to become one we should cleverly take technical help from whoever and whatever we can take.We should pursue our independent policy"which i feel we have been pursuing till now",but pursuing Independent foreign policy does not mean we should not take care of our friends interest and concerns.When we were weak Russia held our arms give us assistance by going out of his way,so now when we have mature into a power we should not dump them.I want India to become super power ,I want India to take care of its self Interest,but I do not want India to become selfish or self centered like america,I want India to hold hands and support its old trusted and tried friend ,and be its strength at time of its weakness.


Future:To conclude India should expand its defence cooperation with US ,but not at cost of Russia.And we should also make it clear to Russia that we can go anywhere but we are standing with Russia not for buyer or seller relationship but for the special bond we share with Russia.And this bond is far greater than any technology as it will provide rock solid stategic strength to India ,we should convince Russia we do not want to become their competitor in international arm market but equal partner in military hardware production and selling,it's time to enter into joint venture with Russians and dominate the world arms market "together".

PS:These are my views based on how I see things,I am not propagating them as "ultimate truth" if you disagree feel free to.You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.

Three Cheers to HOLY GHOST...for this very great analysis....I love it .."accurate and deep thinking...."selling the soul to devil" was the best sentence. Indian civilization is very different than western when it comes to loyalty ,values and dependability. Indians believe in trusting, long term relationships based on principles. India will cease to be India if it becomes greedy, extremely selfish and opportunistic like the West for which materialism is all that matters...everything can be sold for wealth ..your principles, values ,beliefs and soul. Do I want to see India Rich without the soul ...the reason I love India is not because it is materially rich...but because even in poverty it stood for its civilisational values.. Russia, our old ,friend is in difficulty because enemies has decided to destroy it because they don't like the backbone Russian people have and the pride they have. The same evil forces will not tolerate an India who is proud and with a backbone..Beware ! Don't be alarmed if our good old friend needs to sell some Helicopters to Paki...it's OK...its our friend's decision and we should not object to it.
 
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Pandora

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Re: Deal to sell Pakistan Mi-35 politically approved: Russian envoy to

Beautiful upgrade plan sir,Just a question how reliable Ukrainian defence equipments are ? What stop Indian to ask Ukraine to help us in armoured vehicles.
@reply sirji
 

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