Restructuring of Indian Special Forces

[Vishalreddy3]

This thread is dedicated to the detailed analysis of restructuring Indian Army, Navy, Airforce Special Operations Forces.
*Photos, Links, Videos, Articles, etc anything related to the thread can be posted here.
*Discussions regarding modernisation of SOFs and their gear, tactics, etc can also be posted here.

 

[Vishalreddy3]

There are 17 battalions in Parachute Regiment!!

Of which:-
* 9 battalions are Parachute Special Forces battalions
* 5 battalions are regular infantry Paratroopers
* 2 Territorial Army (TA)
* 1 Rashtriya Rifles (RR)
Out of these 8th battalion was decommissioned

 

[Vishalreddy3]

In my opinion, out of 9 battalions of Special Forces
* 5 battalions can be Para SFs (Airborne)
* 2 battalions can be Airborne Para qualified Rangers (Light Infantry)
* 1 battalion of Green Berets equivalent type of SF
* 1 battalion dedicated for Tier 1 SOFs

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

IMHO existing 5 Para Airborne should be used for creating at last 3 separate independent Para Brigades, with additional elements raised for light artillery (use old 105 mm IFG), 122 mm MBRL (use old truck mounted GRADs), light tanks and IFVs (use old BMPs with CAGE armour and APS and new robotic turret), MANPADS (use refurbished IGLas) etc. Tthese support elements should be capable of deploying by parachute. DRDO has already showcased heavy carbo drop of 16 tons via parachute. Additional JUGAAD Transport planes can be sourced from bankrupt Air-India, Indigo etc.

 

[Popeye]

There are 17 battalions in Parachute Regiment!!

Of which:-
* 9 battalions are Parachute Special Forces battalions
* 5 battalions are regular infantry Paratroopers
* 2 Territorial Army (TA)
* 1 Rashtriya Rifles (RR)
Out of these 8th battalion was decommissioned
View attachment 77734
View attachment 77735

Formerly 8th Para or 16th Mahar converted to 12th Mechanized Infantry in 1981

 

[Vishalreddy3]

My point is SF currently is doing the roll/capability of Army Rangers. If they continue that then what happens to the SOF capability?



My 2 paisa option 1:
Well if you fold the SFF (smaller Part of it via a well thought out selection) back into the Army ORBAT and re orient / train them you get your commando force call them Para Cdo Bn. The Balance SFF you fold into the Parachute Regiment to expand the Paras - the SFF component will concentrate on Airborne Mountain Warfare.

Then you spend time and money unskilling the Para SF back to their original role of Tier 2 Special Operations. But form a SF Regiment first.

Option 2

Army SF reverts back to ParaCdo normenclature the Old Battalions are upskilled to SOF duties, the new battalions are fleshed out for Cdo duties and you split them into 2 sub units under the SF Regiment.

SFF is used to flesh out the Parachute Regiment - into 2 components - Airborne troops and LRRP / Pathfinder units -( i.e. what Force Recon / Radio Recon is to the USMC)

SG becomes a TriService Tier 1 Capability under CDS (I.e becomes the AFSOD nucleus)

(raw does not need a Paramilitary arm if we do this right)

Option 3

Merge every single Ghatak Battalion into a new Ranger type Regiment

Downsize and upskill Para SF under a new Ind commant structure and expand the regular Paras

Down size and Formalize indian Origin soldiers of the SFF as LRRP/Path Finder Regiment . maintain tibetian cadre by Raw under SFF nomanclature


Lastly anyone who is not a member of the Parachute Regiment is NOT allowed to wear a maroon beret. Marcos / garud / SF

We have forgotten what a maroon beret means. Everyone who has jump wings does not a paratrooper make

Let me begin with point 3!!
Yes I agree we should combine all our Ghatak platoons and form into its own US Army Rangers equivalent force/battalions and raise new set of well equipped, well trained shock troops from the regular infantry battalions and the replacement for the old Ghatak platoons. These shock troops must be the pre-requisite for the entry and selection for the newly created Ranger battalions!!!
And I have said this before in this same thread where we have 9 battalions of Parachute Special Forces and 5 battalions are regular infantry Paratroopers, this must change. No where in the world where there are more SF battalions than regular Paratrooper battalion and needs some major restructuring!!

There are 17 battalions in Parachute Regiment!!

Of which:-
* 9 battalions are Parachute Special Forces battalions
* 5 battalions are regular infantry Paratroopers
* 2 Territorial Army (TA)
* 1 Rashtriya Rifles (RR)
Out of these 8th battalion was decommissioned
View attachment 77734
View attachment 77735

Now coming to the 2 point of your's. I have to disagree here, since SFF is the only major organisation for our go to clandestine operations and its way better to be under the control of RAW than our regular army. This way we can prevent any intelligence leaks (which is plagued in our Regular Armed Forces) and its a serious threat in the long run and when I say SFF, it also includes SG too!!
What we can do is copy paste the exact doctrine, organisational structure, orbats, etc of the SFF and create new SOF units in the regular Armed Forces, under the an organisation similar to the US Army Special Operations Command like umbrella organisation where all our SOF Units are embedded.
There units are
*Para SF
*Rangers
*Mountain Corps
* Etc tailored for our requirements!!

 

[MIDKNIGHT FENERIR-00]

There are 17 battalions in Parachute Regiment!!

Of which:-
* 9 battalions are Parachute Special Forces battalions
* 5 battalions are regular infantry Paratroopers
* 2 Territorial Army (TA)
* 1 Rashtriya Rifles (RR)
Out of these 8th battalion was decommissioned
View attachment 77734
View attachment 77735

I believe Para Regiment and Para SF should be separated. Battalions from Para Regiment or any other regiment shouldn’t be converted into Para SF units instead units should be build from the ground up and I also think Para SF should be named to Indian Army SF to remove confusion between Para SF and Para Regiment.

 

[rkhanna]

ince SFF is the only major organisation for our go to clandestine operations and its way better to be under the control of RAW than our regular army.

My bone of contention here is that why should not Covert Operations be within the gambit of the military. Joint SOF Command means intelligence lead operations.

Let RAW raise a ISA (Intelligence Service Activity) type unit in addition to their NOC capability. Let the tip of the spear be the military. ISA will prep the battlefield for covert DA raids from Larger Military Forces.

Lastly How and where will RAW run a Brigade size covert unit? Invariably operationally it will come under Army command. Otherwise left hand and right hand will never talk to each other.

Have a National Strategic Operations Command (NSOC) - Headed by NSA and CS. Below It
1) National Int Agency that becomes the nodal agency for RAW, IB, State intel Units, Narcotis ete, ARC, ISA type Unit
2) AFSOD - Tier One CT/DA/Offensive NEST capability (Black)
-- Dedicated Special Aviation Wing primarily only for AFSOD
-- Will have their own HQ, Training, Procurement element
3) CyberCommand
4) NEST (NBC Response Capability) - Part of NDRF but only this node is part of NSOC -
5) Army/Navy/AirForce Special Operations Command Under the DG of Special Operations (DGSO) (White)
6) Minitstry Forigen Affairs Liason, Ministry Home Affairs Liason + NSG
7) Training and Procurement Command - Each Service SOC will overlap with this. All SOF Schools will roll into this command. Will also be solely responsible for mapping out Joint Ex with Foriegn Units

Note: Senior officers from all above will be a 'Council' that will report to NSA and CS - all officials in council will be Equal in Power structure and one system of data flow and dissemination

Fleshing out point 5 above
\\ Army SOC - SF, SFF, Light Infantry Cdo Unit (new raising), dedicated Army Aviation Assets - rotary
\\ AF - Garud + Dedicated Helo Support + Fixed Wing Transport
\\ Navy - MARCOS, UDT, Marine SOF Aviation Dedicated to command

Each of the above commands will be mapped to theater commands. Director of of Special Operations - A/F/N (DSO) will run this for each service and report to DGSO.

Vanila A/AF/N SOF will also do a double reporting into CDS

CDS will have amongst normal structure - DGSO and ANC reporting into it seperately. Any Futher Ambhib Command (Marine Corp) will also go to CDS only and not NSOC.

Last Note: Strategic Missle Command and Nuclear Deterent is not part of the Above and reports into NSA seperately but will have a liason office with NSOC


phew -- talk about day dreaminig on a Monday morning when the markets are crashing

 

[Vishalreddy3]

My bone of contention here is that why should not Covert Operations be within the gambit of the military. Joint SOF Command means intelligence lead operations.

Let RAW raise a ISA (Intelligence Service Activity) type unit in addition to their NOC capability. Let the tip of the spear be the military. ISA will prep the battlefield for covert DA raids from Larger Military Forces.

Lastly How and where will RAW run a Brigade size covert unit? Invariably operationally it will come under Army command. Otherwise left hand and right hand will never talk to each other.

Have a National Strategic Operations Command (NSOC) - Headed by NSA and CS. Below It
1) National Int Agency that becomes the nodal agency for RAW, IB, State intel Units, Narcotis ete, ARC, ISA type Unit
2) AFSOD - Tier One CT/DA/Offensive NEST capability (Black)
-- Dedicated Special Aviation Wing primarily only for AFSOD
-- Will have their own HQ, Training, Procurement element
3) CyberCommand
4) NEST (NBC Response Capability) - Part of NDRF but only this node is part of NSOC -
5) Army/Navy/AirForce Special Operations Command Under the DG of Special Operations (DGSO) (White)
6) Minitstry Forigen Affairs Liason, Ministry Home Affairs Liason + NSG
7) Training and Procurement Command - Each Service SOC will overlap with this. All SOF Schools will roll into this command. Will also be solely responsible for mapping out Joint Ex with Foriegn Units

Note: Senior officers from all above will be a 'Council' that will report to NSA and CS - all officials in council will be Equal in Power structure and one system of data flow and dissemination

Fleshing out point 5 above
\\ Army SOC - SF, SFF, Light Infantry Cdo Unit (new raising), dedicated Army Aviation Assets - rotary
\\ AF - Garud + Dedicated Helo Support + Fixed Wing Transport
\\ Navy - MARCOS, UDT, Marine SOF Aviation Dedicated to command

Each of the above commands will be mapped to theater commands. Director of of Special Operations - A/F/N (DSO) will run this for each service and report to DGSO.

Vanila A/AF/N SOF will also do a double reporting into CDS

CDS will have amongst normal structure - DGSO and ANC reporting into it seperately. Any Futher Ambhib Command (Marine Corp) will also go to CDS only and not NSOC.

Last Note: Strategic Missle Command and Nuclear Deterent is not part of the Above and reports into NSA seperately but will have a liason office with NSOC


phew -- talk about day dreaminig on a Monday morning when the markets are crashing

I am in my class, and I'll reply to this in detail in few hours!!

 

[Vishalreddy3]

My bone of contention here is that why should not Covert Operations be within the gambit of the military. Joint SOF Command means intelligence lead operations.

Let RAW raise a ISA (Intelligence Service Activity) type unit in addition to their NOC capability. Let the tip of the spear be the military. ISA will prep the battlefield for covert DA raids from Larger Military Forces.

Lastly How and where will RAW run a Brigade size covert unit? Invariably operationally it will come under Army command. Otherwise left hand and right hand will never talk to each other.

I have to disagree here since RAW has built SFF from scratch, so much so SFF is like RAW's ambitious pet project and has been since its inception. RAW knows tooth and nail about this organisation, and when we suddenly change its leadership under an organisation that they are not familiar with or even outright deny working under, then we are under a spiral role.
My question is why isn't IA Military Intelligence not having its own units/battalions/brigades dedicated for clandestine operations!!! Just the US Army Military Intelligence Corps.
The MIC has brigade size units consisting of various battalions in the following commands
*The United States Army Intelligence and Security Command (INSCOM) (For active personal)
* The United States Army Military Intelligence Readiness Command, USAMIRC, or MIRC (For reserve component such as various National Guards)
* The United States Army Intelligence Center of Excellence (USAICoE) (For Training).
On top of that US Army has a component in the United States Cyber Command (USCYBERCOM) called the U.S. Army Cyber Command (ARCYBER) where they have several units dedicated for intelligence based ops!!!

Yes, I agree that running a Brigade size covert unit by RAW alone CANNOT be done!! Even CIA Special Activities Division/Centre run a brigade size units and at the very last minute before any planned ops, they actually coordinate with the Army for their support logistically, air support, backup units as a supporting role, etc.

Otherwise left hand and right hand will never talk to each other.

The funniest thing is Military Intelligence (Army, Navy and Airforce), RAW, IB, etc actually never get along with each other really, because they want to claim superiority in this field and its well documented too!!

Another thing we have as an upper hand or as a secret weapon in this case is Defence Intelligence Agency (combined umbrella organisation of Military Intelligence Agencies of Army, Navy and Airforce), and DIA can be used like AF-SOD where the best in this business can work or operate in DIA (Like TIER-1 unit, but for intelligence ops).

 

[Vishalreddy3]

About NSOC I'll start with this point

5) Army/Navy/AirForce Special Operations Command Under the DG of Special Operations (DGSO) (White)

First Army SOF

\\ Army SOC - SF, SFF, Light Infantry Cdo Unit (new raising), dedicated Army Aviation Assets - rotary

As I stated above SFF its not suitable, let it operate under RAW. But let's concentrate on Army SOF alone.
The Army should create its own SOF Command and should consist of these units:-
*Para SF but to concentrated of Airborne Special Ops alone, like US Army GB and present 9 battalions of Para SF should be eliminated and should be reduced to 5 battalions.
*Rangers (Para Qualified) - For light infantry role for Direct Action, Deep reconnaissance, Raids and Assault missions, etc in deep enemy territory.
*Mountain Strike Corp
*Aviation Operations

\ AF - Garud + Dedicated Helo Support + Fixed Wing Transport

For Airforce, similar to the Army a command dedicated for SOF operations.
Guruds must be divided or dismembered into different parts like
* Combat Controllers
*Tactical Air Control (for securing the airbase and setting up temporary working Air Traffic Control)
*PJ
*Pathfinders
*etc

\\ Navy - MARCOS, UDT, Marine SOF Aviation Dedicated to command

For Navy, pretty much looks good!!

 

[Popeye]

DIA should be given free hand. fully Independent agency such as ISI, Not as a Nodel Agency. Soo, if tomorrow R&AW failed in any circumstance DIA will be Backup. Overall The Nation should not be in loss.

if R&AW is ROTTWEILER
then DIA should be PIT BULL

 

[Vishalreddy3]

I have to disagree here since RAW has built SFF from scratch, so much so SFF is like RAW's ambitious pet project and has been since its inception. RAW knows tooth and nail about this organisation, and when we suddenly change its leadership under an organisation that they are not familiar with or even outright deny working under, then we are under a spiral role.
My question is why isn't IA Military Intelligence not having its own units/battalions/brigades dedicated for clandestine operations!!! Just the US Army Military Intelligence Corps.
The MIC has brigade size units consisting of various battalions in the following commands
*The United States Army Intelligence and Security Command (INSCOM) (For active personal)
* The United States Army Military Intelligence Readiness Command, USAMIRC, or MIRC (For reserve component such as various National Guards)
* The United States Army Intelligence Center of Excellence (USAICoE) (For Training).
On top of that US Army has a component in the United States Cyber Command (USCYBERCOM) called the U.S. Army Cyber Command (ARCYBER) where they have several units dedicated for intelligence based ops!!!

Yes, I agree that running a Brigade size covert unit by RAW alone CANNOT be done!! Even CIA Special Activities Division/Centre run a brigade size units and at the very last minute before any planned ops, they actually coordinate with the Army for their support logistically, air support, backup units as a supporting role, etc.

The funniest thing is Military Intelligence (Army, Navy and Airforce), RAW, IB, etc actually never get along with each other really, because they want to claim superiority in this field and its well documented too!!
View attachment 85907
Another thing we have as an upper hand or as a secret weapon in this case is Defence Intelligence Agency (combined umbrella organisation of Military Intelligence Agencies of Army, Navy and Airforce), and DIA can be used like AF-SOD where the best in this business can work or operate in DIA (Like TIER-1 unit, but for intelligence ops).

This came as a shocker to be honest, WE have gone bad to worse!!
I really thought that Aviation Research Centre was functioning, until today I found an article stating its been not functioning since 2015!! Its really a bad news, not only our Aerial Surveillance and Intelligence is compromised but also the strategic air lift to the Special Frontier Force is gone pretty much!!

RAW to shut down its covert air wing, assets will go to NTRO and IAF

The ARC’s chief currently reports to the RAW chief who wields ex-officio responsibility over it as Director, Security, in the Cabinet Secretariat. ARC aircraft, electronic assets to be split between NTRO and IAF.

indianexpress.com

 

[rkhanna]

This came as a shocker to be honest, WE have gone bad to worse!!
I really thought that Aviation Research Centre was functioning, until today I found an article stating its been not functioning since 2015!! Its really a bad news, not only our Aerial Surveillance and Intelligence is compromised but also the strategic air lift to the Special Frontier Force is gone pretty much!!

RAW to shut down its covert air wing, assets will go to NTRO and IAF

The ARC’s chief currently reports to the RAW chief who wields ex-officio responsibility over it as Director, Security, in the Cabinet Secretariat. ARC aircraft, electronic assets to be split between NTRO and IAF.

indianexpress.com

It's not shut down it's gone to NTRO. A number of assets have been upgraded/new ones bought from Israel.. And capabilities enhanced with better satellites and DPR capabilities.

The reorg was a strategic rethink of our intelligence assets across the spectrum. Brain child of Doval. Will not say more but have faith

 

[Vishalreddy3]

It's not shut down it's gone to NTRO. A number of assets have been upgraded/new ones bought from Israel.. And capabilities enhanced with better satellites and DPR capabilities.

The reorg was a strategic rethink of our intelligence assets across the spectrum. Brain child of Doval. Will not say more but have faith

But I really wish ARC is not gone, atleast operate transportation fleet both Helicopters and fixed winged transport aircrafts!!
India, in particular ARC showed interest in procurement of V-22 Ospreys!!

India sizes up V-22 Osprey

India has shown interest in the Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey, although it has not stated a formal requirement for the tiltrotor aircraft.

www.flightglobal.com

 

[rkhanna]

But I really wish ARC is not gone, atleast operate transportation fleet both Helicopters and fixed winged transport aircrafts!!
India, in particular ARC showed interest in procurement of V-22 Ospreys!!

India sizes up V-22 Osprey

India has shown interest in the Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey, although it has not stated a formal requirement for the tiltrotor aircraft.

www.flightglobal.com

Those assets are not gone. Will not say more

 

[Vishalreddy3]

Those assets are not gone. Will not say more

Do you remember when in 2019 IAF lost an An-32 aircraft in Arunachal Pradesh??
What's funny is that almost all news outlets were saying IAF along with ARC and NTRO were employed in the search ops. Does this mean ARC is still somewhat functioning??

R&AW plane joins AN-32 search ops

The AN-32 had taken off from Jorhat in Assam and was on its way to an advanced landing ground at Mechuka in Arunachal Pradesh’s West Siang district when it vanished from the radar.

www.hindustantimes.com

Global 5000 surveillance aircraft, NTRO spy satellites being used to trace IAF AN-32

With authorities making all-out efforts in search of IAF's AN-32 aircraft, government sources informed that air-force is using Global 5000 surveillance aircraft and NTRO spy satellites along with other assets to locate the missing aircraft.Also, Defence Minister Rajnath Singh is said to have...

www.business-standard.com

 

[rkhanna]

Do you remember when in 2019 IAF lost an An-32 aircraft in Arunachal Pradesh??
What's funny is that almost all news outlets were saying IAF along with ARC and NTRO were employed in the search ops. Does this mean ARC is still somewhat functioning??

R&AW plane joins AN-32 search ops

The AN-32 had taken off from Jorhat in Assam and was on its way to an advanced landing ground at Mechuka in Arunachal Pradesh’s West Siang district when it vanished from the radar.

www.hindustantimes.com

Global 5000 surveillance aircraft, NTRO spy satellites being used to trace IAF AN-32

With authorities making all-out efforts in search of IAF's AN-32 aircraft, government sources informed that air-force is using Global 5000 surveillance aircraft and NTRO spy satellites along with other assets to locate the missing aircraft.Also, Defence Minister Rajnath Singh is said to have...

www.business-standard.com

Haha no I believe the ARC does not exist as such anymore. Let the media write. There has been a major reorg of national intelligence and has greatly reduced buearcracy. NTRO now functions more like the NSA for us. Aviation assets have been spread out across the board to make utilization more efficient

 

[notaname]

Haha no I believe the ARC does not exist as such anymore. Let the media write. There has been a major reorg of national intelligence and has greatly reduced buearcracy. NTRO now functions more like the NSA for us. Aviation assets have been spread out across the board to make utilization more efficient

You are right Nitin Ghokle did a program on this one can find on his YouTube channel about reorganization of security apparatus and he also did review sometime later.

 

[notaname]