Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russian

[jouni]

Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

Exercises won't make your pilots and Fighters Best in the world . NATO Exercises happens somewhere in repeated intervals They are all not available for Public

Your 100 Scores won't help you in real Battle field

Last time it was tested in real battlefield the kill ratio was even better 26:1. Because Finland is a neutral country it would be natural for us to sell training services to other countries.
.

 

[pmaitra]

Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

It is not the pilots only, it is the complete package. In joint exercises with NATO countries our Hornets dropped 100 NATO planes and lost only six.

During exercises, sometimes a team will deliberately under-perform, so as to not give away all the capabilities of the hardware. Sukhoi-30MKIs smothered the US F-16 and F-15 in exercises, but I doubt it will be the same in real combat.

Interesting read: Dissecting a dogfight: Sukhoi vs USAF at Red Flag 2008 | Russia & India Report

 

[jouni]

Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

During exercises, sometimes a team will deliberately under-perform, so as to not give away all the capabilities of the hardware. Sukhoi-30MKIs smothered the US F-16 and F-15 in exercises, but I doubt it will be the same in real combat.

Interesting read: Dissecting a dogfight: Sukhoi vs USAF at Red Flag 2008 | Russia & India Report

I have to disagree with you: NATO would love to have Finland to join them. They tried to demonstrate how FiAF cannot cope without them and match them, but the results were the opposite.

 

[ezsasa]

Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

And so the buildup to Putin's visit starts

 

[anupamsurey]

Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

Because your western masters produce systems that are grossly expensive and complicated for Indian unforgiving environment. Moreover these idiots are unreliable defence suppliers, Germany has no qualms supplying Pakistan arms, but when it comes to India they act like sissies.



How old are you really?

When you drive a car there is a probability that you can get an accident, do you blame Nissan or Toyota for that?

i think i should ask you about your age, considering that you compare a car with a plane (even though both undergo accidents but with different mechanisms, and with different end results), but at least the car manufacturer finds about engine fault and call back the produce to amend it.
if you have observed it is not just old jets (like mig 21) but su 30, mig 29 crashing, there were reports of accidents with T-50 too.
even russian avionics fail regularly..why do you think that squadrons of su 30 were grounded, russians have time and again refused to correct their errors, and they even have audacity to charge for making amend in ailing system, if you haven't noticed even Indians have realized about russians (though lately) and thats why you see the deviation of Indians from usual russian markets to American, and Israel.

 

[JBH22]

Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

i think i should ask you about your age, considering that you compare a car with a plane (even though both undergo accidents but with different mechanisms, and with different end results), but at least the car manufacturer finds about engine fault and call back the produce to amend it.
if you have observed it is not just old jets (like mig 21) but su 30, mig 29 crashing, there were reports of accidents with T-50 too.
even russian avionics fail regularly..why do you think that squadrons of su 30 were grounded, russians have time and again refused to correct their errors, and they even have audacity to charge for making amend in ailing system, if you haven't noticed even Indians have realized about russians (though lately) and thats why you see the deviation of Indians from usual russian markets to American, and Israel.

Please go through Antony figures submitted human error still accounts for most of the damages.

In that sense I can also go through the crashes of Jaguar and Mirage and tell you how crappy the western planes are. On SU-30MKi its Israeli, French and Indian avionics that have been installed and not Russian so check your facts.

 

[laughingbuddha]

Rafale was chosen partially due to its performance in the invasion of Libya. Russia can simply invade a country to "spread democracy" and hopefully we will be impressed with their MiG-35.

Jokes apart, the Rafale is tried and tested. The MiG-35 quite isn't, and neither was the eclectic Typhoon. That one would have been a big political headache with too many people trying to have a say on whether we should use them or put them in a museum for show.

How exactly was the Rafale tested in Libya?

Did it go into combat against Libyan aircraft or into well defended air space? I think not.

Rafales probably bombed defenceless Libyan targets.

 

[SajeevJino]

Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

How exactly was the Rafale tested in Libya?

Did it go into combat against Libyan aircraft or into well defended air space? I think not.

Rafales probably bombed defenceless Libyan targets.

Before Posting Please do some Research

French combat jets were the first to attack on Saturday as they destroyed four tanks at 4.45pm — hours after 19 world leaders gathered in Paris to agree multinational action. The Libyan dictator tried to wrong-foot the international community by declaring a ceasefire, even though his forces kept up an onslaught on the rebel stronghold of Benghazi.

Libya: British forces fire missiles at Gaddafi - Telegraph

Read French Operation in Libiyan Civil war

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Op%C3%A9ration_Harmattan

FRA: French Air Force, which flew the highest percentage of NATO's strikes (35%), participated in the mission with 18 Mirage, 19 Rafale, 6 Mirage F1, 6 Super Etendard, 2 E-2 Hawkeye, 2 C-2 Greyhound, 3 Eurocopter Tiger, 16 Gazelle aircraft. In addition, the French Navy anti-air destroyer Forbin and the frigate Jean Bart participated in the operations.[100] On 22 March, the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle arrived in international waters near Crete to provide military planners with a rapid-response air combat capability.[101] Accompanying the Charles de Gaulle were the frigates Dupleix, Aconit, the fleet replenishment tanker Meuse, and one Rubis-class nuclear attack submarine.[102] France did station three Mirage 2000-5 aircraft and 6 Mirage 2000D at Souda Bay, Crete.[103] France also sent an amphibious assault helicopter carrier, the Tonnerre, carrying 19 rotorcraft to operate off the coast of Libya.[104]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

Not arguing with "pmaitra" at all.

If he is right then there is a huge waste of money about to occur with the purchase of Rafale.

I can understand why Russian ambassdor is sore about Rafale purchase. But not cannot understand pmaitra's argument that Su-27 is far more capable and can front and win in the air against Rafale.

I have no confidence in stolen and copied technology. That is what Chinese are doing. A danger in copied and stolen technology is that expertise, metallurgy, manufacturing does not come with it. That is a crucial disadvantage.

I believe more experts are needed to throw in their opinions.

Chinese do not have engine capability or crystal blade technology. Even when
Israelis gave it to them thru LAVI . And even after three decades to copy and
Reverse engineer.


http://www.wrmea.org/2007-april/has...-jet-been-reborn-as-chinas-j-10-warplane.html

 

[ninja85]

Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

It is not the pilots only, it is the complete package. In joint exercises with NATO countries our Hornets dropped 100 NATO planes and lost only six.

you are pretty impressed with score of that one nato exercise conclusion.

 

[anupamsurey]

Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

Please go through Antony figures submitted human error still accounts for most of the damages.

In that sense I can also go through the crashes of Jaguar and Mirage and tell you how crappy the western planes are. On SU-30MKi its Israeli, French and Indian avionics that have been installed and not Russian so check your facts.

to be frank you have good points about aging weapon platforms, but it doesn't add credit to the Russian weaponry, the fact is simple Russian fighters are most unreliable and piece of crap. india is just buying it because they are cheaper and easily available.
and no the SU's and MIGs do have some Russian avionics which cannot be replaced...(may be some IPR protocol), have you forgotten the recent blacking out issue in SU 30 where the entire fleet was grounded

 

[JBH22]

Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

to be frank you have good points about aging weapon platforms, but it doesn't add credit to the Russian weaponry, the fact is simple Russian fighters are most unreliable and piece of crap. india is just buying it because they are cheaper and easily available.
and no the SU's and MIGs do have some Russian avionics which cannot be replaced...(may be some IPR protocol), have you forgotten the recent blacking out issue in SU 30 where the entire fleet was grounded

MFD Black out issue. FYI these displays were sourced from SAMTEL french company and since then these have been license built India.

Hmm no wonder IAF is going for Russian fifth gen plane

 

[jouni]

Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

you are pretty impressed with score of that one nato exercise conclusion.

It is the only, with info leaked out. There have been dozens others. We have been using hornets for 20 years with two accidents with plane destroyed, pretty good record. How many accidents in Indian aif forces in the same time?

 

[vidarbh]

Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

India first invited all the best fighters including Russian MIG 35 but due to its week engine India rejects this machine, India already have SU 30 as heavy fighter bomber which are far more advanced in comparison to any of the Chinese SU27. but I think this time India was looking for a fighter which can be prepared for another attack within no time. Its a different segment of Fighter. in terms of quality Rafale is far better than any of the Russian Fighters, moreover thrust vectoring is not the only criteria for selection. If we see the results of RED FLAG EXERCISES Rafale resulted in the best fighter for Air combat.

 

[sgarg]

Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

Nuclear power plant tech is practically the only tech Russians are competitive Globally. Glad to see India trust western tech in key defence sourcing. Finland also shifted to western tech after collapse of SU and have not looked back since.

Why not get the subs from Germany?

We think that Rafale is unnecessary purchase. It made sense 10 years ago but not now.
India has Su-30 for which production plant is already established and the plane is about 80% localized. Billions of dollars have been invested in this plant.

The French have changed. They look for every single opportunity to extract money from India.

The Scorpene sub deal has turned into a nightmare.

I think Rafale is a bad deal for India. I know IAF is pushing it hard, and that is the sad part.

 

[sgarg]

Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

It is the only, with info leaked out. There have been dozens others. We have been using hornets for 20 years with two accidents with plane destroyed, pretty good record. How many accidents in Indian aif forces in the same time?

If you send your planes to India, your accident rate will go up. The amount of dust in air is much higher in India which affects engine life. Russians are NOT to blame for it.

 

[sgarg]

Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

to be frank you have good points about aging weapon platforms, but it doesn't add credit to the Russian weaponry, the fact is simple Russian fighters are most unreliable and piece of crap. india is just buying it because they are cheaper and easily available.
and no the SU's and MIGs do have some Russian avionics which cannot be replaced...(may be some IPR protocol), have you forgotten the recent blacking out issue in SU 30 where the entire fleet was grounded

India is collaborating now with Russia. It is no longer a client relationship. India's labs will contribute more to such joint development. This is the best way to achieve self-reliance.

The tech gap in case of Rafale is huge. Domestic industry is not ready to produce components of Rafale. It may take 10 years to absorb the technology. So it does not serve the "urgent" need of IAF. This project is too late and now irrelevant due to expansion of Su-30 fleet.

India needs solutions that fit its need and its pockets. We are still eating chapati here and not graduated to eating bread and cake. Our main adversary Pakistan's latest fighter is a glorified Mig-21.

 

[JBH22]

Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

It is the only, with info leaked out. There have been dozens others. We have been using hornets for 20 years with two accidents with plane destroyed, pretty good record. How many accidents in Indian aif forces in the same time?

Tell me more about finnish experience in war time. Oh I forgot your neighbourhood is the most peaceful one since 1945 and at that time there were piston engine planes. duh

 

[pmaitra]

Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

We think that Rafale is unnecessary purchase. It made sense 10 years ago but not now.
India has Su-30 for which production plant is already established and the plane is about 80% localized. Billions of dollars have been invested in this plant.

The French have changed. They look for every single opportunity to extract money from India.

The Scorpene sub deal has turned into a nightmare.

I think Rafale is a bad deal for India. I know IAF is pushing it hard, and that is the sad part.

I heard that the Sukhoi-30 has more than 90% localization, but you might be right.

The Sukhoi-30 is certainly better than the Rafale, but the Rafale wasn't chosen in place of Sukhoi-30. It was chosen in place of MiG-35. There is a thread on this issue, and there are arguments both for and against it. Maybe you have seen it. I believe Rafale has its place and we should acquire it. Folks have argued in favour of our Tejas (Mark I and II). I just could not agree with this twin-engine vs single-engine comparison.

 

[ninja85]

Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

It is the only, with info leaked out. There have been dozens others. We have been using hornets for 20 years with two accidents with plane destroyed, pretty good record. How many accidents in Indian aif forces in the same time?

how many planes finland had then?btw i am impressed the way u guys handled your 'little' air force but dont think you ever gonna need it ,keep posting finland air force score card.