Putin has Defended the Nazi-Soviet Pact

[jouni]

How does it affect us in India?

The US officer or my rank gets a King's ransom for pay and perks.

So?

And your point is?

My point is that Russia has failed to give the living standards to its people that they could have had if country's development had followed the path of western Europe. Trying to keep Ukraine close to Russia means also denying it's rise to sustainable living standard level. When USSR collapsed Poland had the same GDP as Ukraine, now it has three times higher.

Russians can blame themselves for that, not the west. At the end of the day everybody just wants decent living.

Every pact Russia makes means of spheres of influence means that grass IS greener on the other side of that line.

 

[Razor]

People in USSR were united by police state blocking the borders, flow of information and creating the imaginery threat of enemy waiting outside the borders. That changed the psyche of the people and created homo sovieticus, which is still recognizable in Russian people today.

Look who's talking about propaganda and imaginary enemies.

Dehumanizing the East (making them look like monkeys, bear, weird humanoids etc) was one of West's trademarks.

Propaganda oozes out of every aspect of Western society.

Back in the day it was more "in your face", these days it is subtle and more effective.

 

[Razor]

Yes, you are far away from European problems. Let me give you few examples here: a small municipality where I live has a budget of 34 Million a year, a teacher earns 3500 Euros a month. Similar sized municipality 50 km away in the Russian side has a budget of 500 000 Euros and teachers salary is 300 Euros a month. We all hope that the living standard gap gets smaller, but unfortunately current Russian policies will mean that it gets wider still. No propaganda in the world can hide it.

So you are saying that a teacher earns about (3500/300 ~ )12 times in Finland. I think (and correct me if I am wrong @pmaitra ) that it is a simplistic way to look at it.
For instance according to 2013 values GDP PPP per capita of (all USD)
Russia= 24,120
Finald = 38,251

So now 38251/24120 ~ 1.5 times instead of 12.

Also not to mention the external debt per capita (USD)
Finland= 68,960 per capita
while Russia is a mere 3,634 per capita.

Finland's debt is 155% of it's GDP (you owe more than you produce) while Russia's is 23% of GDP.

Economics noob, so go easy on me if I'm wrong on anything.

 

[jouni]

Look who's talking about propaganda and imaginary enemies.

Dehumanizing the East (making them look like monkeys, bear, weird humanoids etc) was one of West's trademarks.

Propaganda oozes out of every aspect of Western society.

Back in the day it was more "in your face", these days it is subtle and more effective.

Luckily we in the west have moved ahead from those days. They still seem to haunt you and Russia.

Btw. Russians used to dehumanize finnish soldiers calling them "white death"

 

[Razor]

Luckily we in the west have moved ahead from those days.

Exactly Western propaganda is now way ahead and much more subtle (and therefore difficult to identify) than Russian propaganda.

They still seem to haunt you and Russia.

They don't haunt me or the Russians. But I'm exposing your lies and whitewashing.

Btw. Russians used to dehumanize finnish soldiers calling them "white death"

Calling somebody "white death" is not the same as making somebody look like a monkey.

 

[jouni]

P

So you are saying that a teacher earns about (3500/300 ~ )12 times in Finland. I think (and correct me if I am wrong @pmaitra ) that it is a simplistic way to look at it.
For instance according to 2013 values GDP PPP per capita of (all USD)
Russia= 24,120
Finald = 38,251

So now 38251/24120 ~ 1.5 times instead of 12.

Also not to mention the external debt per capita (USD)
Finland= 68,960 per capita
while Russia is a mere 3,634 per capita.

Finland's debt is 155% of it's GDP (you owe more than you produce) while Russia's is 23% of GDP.

Economics noob, so go easy on me if I'm wrong on anything.

Maybe you have to ask where that money has gone in Russia. Ordinary people has not seen much of it.
Debt is not bad. Here is debt versus interest payments from the last decades.

 

[Razor]

Maybe you have to ask where that money has gone in Russia. Ordinary people has not seen much of it.

Granted, that is an interesting thought.

But maybe, the picture that you painted about Finlands is not entire either.

Looking at the statistics, would I be wrong in calling the average Fin, a debt slave ? @pmaitra

 

[jouni]

Granted, that is an interesting thought.

But maybe, the picture that you painted about Finlands is not entire either.

Looking at the statistics, would I be wrong in calling the average Fin, a debt slave ? @pmaitra

Ordinary people have normally mortgage, but their real estates value is higher. My house is three times more valuable than the remaining debt. Also interest rate is low, mine is 0,40%.

 

[pmaitra]

Granted, that is an interesting thought.

But maybe, the picture that you painted about Finlands is not entire either.

Looking at the statistics, would I be wrong in calling the average Fin, a debt slave ? @pmaitra

What most western media believers keep talking about is GDP.

They, either by virtue of their media which prefers to keep them deluded, or due to their own lack of initiative to actually understand what they are hearing, continue to talk about GDP, and conveniently forget GDP in PPP terms or Debt to GDP ratio.

Finland, in comparison to Russia, looks like a pauper.

 

[Razor]

What most western media believer keep talking about is GDP.

They, either by virtue of their media which prefers to keep them deluded, or due to their own lack of initiative to actually understand what they are hearing, continue to talk about GDP, and conveniently forget GDP in PPP terms or Debt to GDP ratio.

Finland, in comparison to Russia, looks like a pauper.

Thank you. To me this (emboldened part) looks like common sense. I was just worried that there might be some intricacies involved or terminology I didn't know of.
But in any case I gotta read up more on this stuff. Any recommended documentary which gives a near complete picture.

 

[pmaitra]

Thank you. To me this (emboldened part) looks like common sense. I was just worried that there might be some intricacies involved or terminology I didn't know of.
But in any case I gotta read up more on this stuff. Any recommended documentary which gives a near complete picture.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...s-why-mainstream-views-different-reality.html

There is a lot of material here. See it all, hear both sides, and use your own judgment.

 

[jouni]

What most western media believers keep talking about is GDP.

They, either by virtue of their media which prefers to keep them deluded, or due to their own lack of initiative to actually understand what they are hearing, continue to talk about GDP, and conveniently forget GDP in PPP terms or Debt to GDP ratio.

Finland, in comparison to Russia, looks like a pauper.

Yeah, I feel quite pauper looking at this prosperity index, Finland #8, Russia #68 and India #102


http://www.prosperity.com/#!/ranking

 

[pmaitra]

Yeah, I feel quite pauper looking at this prosperity index, Finland #8, Russia #68 and India #102


http://www.prosperity.com/#!/ranking

Another ranking.

 

[Razor]

Yeah, I feel quite pauper looking at this prosperity index, Finland #8, Russia #68 and India #102


http://www.prosperity.com/#!/ranking

You may be right.

But here is a suggestion, not just for economics but for all else in life.

Analyze the raw facts, rather than what is processed, heated, cooked and spoon-fed.

It makes you healthier.

 

[pmaitra]

You may be right.

But here is a suggestion, not just for economics but for all else in life.

Analyze the raw facts, rather than what is processed, heated, cooked and spoon-fed.

It makes you healthier.

@Razor, you are wasting your time if you are trying to convince him. However, arguments are important for those who are fence sitters.

I recall a debate with an individual who focused on the beyond 1st Standard Deviation to form an opinion about India.

For such people, exception (or outlier) is the norm.

As I have always maintained, mathematics is a science, but economics, an art.

 

[Ray]

My point is that Russia has failed to give the living standards to its people that they could have had if country's development had followed the path of western Europe. Trying to keep Ukraine close to Russia means also denying it's rise to sustainable living standard level. When USSR collapsed Poland had the same GDP as Ukraine, now it has three times higher.

Russians can blame themselves for that, not the west. At the end of the day everybody just wants decent living.

Every pact Russia makes means of spheres of influence means that grass IS greener on the other side of that line.

What makes you feel that the West's standard of living is any index of good life and decent living?

You think living on processed food attractively packed is decent living?

9 Ways That Processed Foods Are Slowly Killing People
http://authoritynutrition.com/9-ways-that-processed-foods-are-killing-people/

In India we eat farm fresh food and very little in the form of processed food and no GM food.

There is a US report that GM food has contributed to health problems in the US.

That is decent living?

Are you aware how much of aid and the United States reducing Poland's outstanding debt to the United States by 70% in 1991 has gone to make Poland become what it is now?
Bush Greets Walesa With 70% Debt Cut : Foreign aid: The decrease goes 20 percentage points beyond that of the other allies. - Los Angeles Times.

If richer countries bail out a dead and out nation, then obviously they will do better.

How do you think Japan and Germany rose after WWII? On their own? Heard of Marshall Plan?

Look at issues holistically and not superficially.

 

[jouni]

What makes you feel that the West's standard of living is any index of good life and decent living?

You think living on processed food attractively packed is decent living?

9 Ways That Processed Foods Are Slowly Killing People
9 Ways That Processed Foods Are Slowly Killing People

In India we eat farm fresh food and very little in the form of processed food and no GM food.

There is a US report that GM food has contributed to health problems in the US.

That is decent living?

Are you aware how much of aid and the United States reducing Poland's outstanding debt to the United States by 70% in 1991 has gone to make Poland become what it is now?
Bush Greets Walesa With 70% Debt Cut : Foreign aid: The decrease goes 20 percentage points beyond that of the other allies. - Los Angeles Times.

If richer countries bail out a dead and out nation, then obviously they will do better.

How do you think Japan and Germany rose after WWII? On their own? Heard of Marshall Plan?

Look at issues holistically and not superficially.

Our food is pretty clean Top 20 World’s cleanest countries - iip albanjary's blog | Earth

Regarding Marshall aid: It was also offered to eastern Europe and Russia, and yes Russia turned it down...

 

[jouni]

You may be right.

But here is a suggestion, not just for economics but for all else in life.

Analyze the raw facts, rather than what is processed, heated, cooked and spoon-fed.

It makes you healthier.

Ok, just wandering what those raw facts are. I agree that economics don't tell the whole story. I think all who write to this forum have good and happy live, regardless where they live.

 

[sgarg]

Ok, just wandering what those raw facts are. I agree that economics don't tell the whole story. I think all who write to this forum have good and happy live, regardless where they live.

Jouni, your (EU) support of Poroshenko will kill your standard of living. I have told you earlier that EU is underestimating Russia.
Russia is a continent size country with enormous mineral wealth. Russians are also fairly good in science. Russia is NO Saudi Arabia.

 

[sgarg]

Chinese are watching every Western move in Ukraine. Ukraine matters to the Chinese as China is on the path to increase its sphere of influence. China has to grow now by increasing its sphere of influence. China has already tapped its domestic potential.

The effort to destroy Moscow's sphere of influence is very relevant to China.

While Russia and China may seem irrelevant to you, I suggest you look at the map. The combined land area of Russia+China is 1,5 times the land area of USA+EU combined.