Opinion: Ideal IN Submarine strength

[arnabmit]

@Kunal Biswas @pmaitra

I don't think that IN would go for any littoral subs. All future littoral underwater platforms might be an armed and bigger UCUV based on the the AUV prototypes.

 

[TrueSpirit1]

Endurance of humans can never be limited to 6 months. Where did you this information from? Do look up the records achieved in the Mir Space Station.

We need larger submarines, with game rooms, saunas, artificial sunlight rooms, etc., to increase endurance.

Have all the info there is to be had. How long a SSBN/SSN stayed in deep oceans was never limited by sub's capabilities but by endurance of personnel manning it. It is a fact & there was no exception or aberration to this. This was valid throughout the cold war. This would be valid in future as well.

Comparing it with Mir's case

We need larger submarines, with game rooms, saunas, artificial sunlight rooms, etc., to increase endurance.

Not happening. Not in our lifetime. One may wish for the moon but IN does not really need it. We can achieve the goals of our operational doctrine without the above & that is what IN would do.

 

[TrueSpirit1]

A heavy cruiser is an SSBN (e.g. Akula Class).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_cruiser

What you wanted is: Typhpoon, Borei or Delta class SSBN.

Littoral submarines will not help out sea-control doctrine. They are required for coastal defence.

No. We do not need it. IN would not go for it. Read the rest of the post to understand why:

We procure subs at a very laggard pace so whatever we induct, should not have short-legs or even suffer from any obvious limitation. IN sea-control doctrine not allows for a lot of specialized ships like AD-ships etc. (that is, when it comes to principal combatants only, unlike corvettes).

Subs of IN, despite considered as sea-denial platform, would be tasked to escort CBG's as well as carry out independent operations in deep oceans. This is the flexibility IN would not compromise upon. So, whatever few subs IN would eventually have, would be armed to the teeth & would be designed with deployment flexibility in mind. Our shipyards are also not really known for their efficiency in routine maintenance, so IN's few operational subs have a lot of water (read, sea-lanes) to cover.

That is the rationale behind the general, multi-purpose nature of IN surface combatants. Our ships are, as a rule of thumb, more densely & heavily armed in comparison to ships of corresponding tonnage in the region. This is a given that the trend is only going to sustain itself.

IN in not going for any littoral sub. Period.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@arnabmit, These small UUWV are not in same league of a 500-1000ton Submarine making patrols all over Bay of Bengal, Even these vehicles are evolving and it may take 20-30 years from now to be something useful in combat against enemy submarine in a wide area ..

 

[sayareakd]

L&T makes costal submarine

if i am not wrong 6 member crew, plus with two external torpedos.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Thanks for sharing Sir, Was looking for that Pic ..

 

[pmaitra]

I figured you meant as much; but to mitigate confusion, use the term "cruiser" for large surface-combatants and refer to "Akula" by its NATO code-name, "Typhoon."

Actually Sir, I had written a post to mitigate the confusion:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-navy/3243-ins-chakra-akula-ii-18.html#post324965

Typhoon is indeed officially classified as a cruiser:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/naval-warfare/45022-akula-class-submarine-tk-20-severstal.html

@TrueSpirit1, requesting your attention.

 

[pmaitra]

Have all the info there is to be had. How long a SSBN/SSN stayed in deep oceans was never limited by sub's capabilities but by endurance of personnel manning it. It is a fact & there was no exception or aberration to this. This was valid throughout the cold war. This would be valid in future as well.

Until you present credible sources, I am not convinced.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

I was hoping indian navy considered swedish a26 most advanced aip today. For a
Huge ocean like the Indian Ocean Imo atleast 20 nuclear submarines should be the minimum
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/americas/8696-submarine-type-a26.html.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

When a nation develops nuclear submarine capability it is similar to developing icbm
Capability. It is a threat to everyone, relations may change and having too few would
Not guarantee a robust second strike capability. Many submarines are reportedly tracked
By satellites. At any given time us has 7-12 Ohio subs patrolling the pacific

Asia Times Online :: China News, China Business News, Taiwan and Hong Kong News and Business..

 

[SajeevJino]

As of My view IN Currently Operates 8 Kilo Class and 3 German 1500 SSK ..But most of them are Obsolete .But still we can use them upto 2020

After 2020 we should Focus about Scorpion AIP 6 of them and Project 15 Class Submarines 6 of them Once we Successfully test the P 15 we should induct another batch of 6 last Time I heard the French and India completed the AIP of P 15 that run 14 days on land ..so it can submerged upto 20x24x13=6240 Knots .. 2O Knots of Speed ..13 days of underwater .. so it is enough to go over pakki waters and safe back to our Bases

So Right Now we have 18 SSK all of them with AIP ..

and SSN ..we should have 4 SSN at the time 2020 we may buy two Akula and two of them on lease basis ..each of them escort our CBG and One in Additional recon mission ..after successful SSBN design we should try to make SSN by 2020 by time we can acheive indigenous SSN by 2030

and SSBN we need 4 ..it was easy by 2025

so

18 SSK + 4 SSN + 4 SSBN
.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

The delays in scorpenes program seems to from india's indigenous aip program.
India wants to place indigenously developed aip and this seems to have caused delays
According to the french? While the french take orders to build more for other nations (Brazil )

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Uncertainty over AIP for Indian Scorpene submarines | StratPost

 

[Armand2REP]

Uncertainty over AIP for Indian Scorpene submarines | StratPost

I thought you were going to buy it from us. If you feel the need to develop it yourself I don't want to hear any complaints over delays from our side.

 

[sayareakd]

The delays in scorpenes program seems to from india's indigenous aip program.
India wants to place indigenously developed aip and this seems to have caused delays
According to the french? While the french take orders to build more for other nations (Brazil )

LF AIP is running fine on land, task of installing the same is on the French, this is said by DRDO chief in the video interview.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

I thought you were going to buy it from us. If you feel the need to develop it yourself I don't want to hear any complaints over delays from our side.

We are buying everything you are producing, just keep pumping it out.

 

[sayareakd]

I thought you were going to buy it from us. If you feel the need to develop it yourself I don't want to hear any complaints over delays from our side.

if you ever cared to read the news it says

There is uncertainty over the possibility of Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) being installed in the last two of the six Scorpene submarines being built at Mazagon Dock Limited in Mumbai.

http://www.stratpost.com/uncertainty-over-aip-for-indian-scorpene-submarines

Last of the two subs not on the first.

We have not seen any sub so far.Land version of AIP is running fine.

 

[Armand2REP]

if you ever cared to read the news it says


Uncertainty over AIP for Indian Scorpene submarines | StratPost

Last of the two subs not on the first.

We have not seen any sub so far.Land version of AIP is running fine.

I am covering future bases because I know the complaints will come. None of the delays are attributable to French so far and AIP delays certainly cannot be.

 

[DivineHeretic]

As of My view IN Currently Operates 8 Kilo Class and 3 German 1500 SSK ..But most of them are Obsolete .But still we can use them upto 2020

After 2020 we should Focus about Scorpion AIP 6 of them and Project 15 Class Submarines 6 of them Once we Successfully test the P 15 we should induct another batch of 6 last Time I heard the French and India completed the AIP of P 15 that run 14 days on land ..so it can submerged upto 20x24x13=6240 Knots .. 2O Knots of Speed ..13 days of underwater .. so it is enough to go over pakki waters and safe back to our Bases

So Right Now we have 18 SSK all of them with AIP ..

and SSN ..we should have 4 SSN at the time 2020 we may buy two Akula and two of them on lease basis ..each of them escort our CBG and One in Additional recon mission ..after successful SSBN design we should try to make SSN by 2020 by time we can acheive indigenous SSN by 2030

and SSBN we need 4 ..it was easy by 2025

so

18 SSK + 4 SSN + 4 SSBN
.

I believe you are referring to the Project 75I subs. P15s are destroyers.

And about the AIP, there is a lot of misconception about the advantages imparted by it to a SSK. From Dr. Whiteman (Sr. Editor of Undersea Warfare magazine):

The maximum power output of current AIP installations is typically on the order of 400 horsepower (300 kilowatts). In comparison, the conventional diesel-electric plant of the U 212 class is rated at over 3,000 horsepower, and a typical nuclear submarine propulsion plant produces over 20,000.

Since the power required to propel a submerged body varies with the cube of its velocity, it should be apparent that at least for the near future, AIP will be valuable primarily as a low-speed, long-endurance adjunct to the under- water performance of conventional submarines. There is little short-term prospect for AIP to become a primary, full-performance alternative to either diesel or nuclear power. Even the phrase "closed cycle" is something of a misnomer, because except for fuel cells, all AIP alternatives require ejecting exhaust gases overboard, which limits both depth capability and stealth.

This is not to say AIP is a gimmick. Used properly and creatively, these provide a very effective access denial and costal defense platform.

The basic understanding as of now is that with the extremely limited undersea performance of AIP systems( 5-8 Knots), the SSK will use either a surface run (conditions permitting) or use the diesel engines for quick deployment to required area. The AIP is then used as a low power long endurance platform to patrol the required costal area.

 

[TrueSpirit1]

The one mistake that most of the posters are committing here is: over-estimating the number of operational Diesel Electric Subs IN would have in its fleet. That number would not exceed 15 under normal circumstances. 15 SSK, 18 SSK, 24 SSK are not happening. Just that, our SSK would inherit additional capabilities (anti-shipping as well as cruise-missile capable), so would be more lethal.

IN's focus is at ensuring that current SSK force level doesn't depletes.

For any augmentation in sea-denial capabilities, forming the sub-surface component of carrier strike group or expeditionary strike group, or for CBG escort roles, SSN's would be preferred. This is not the situation now, but is idea is very much on cards (on similar lines as US & french navies).

Not to forget, getting the 5 SSBN's ready with proven SLBM's holds the highest priority on IN's minds.