Nirbhay Cruise Missile Development

[Bhadra]

That is where you making the error, Nothing is made or funded without Requirement and DRDO budget is least compare to what needed for such task as said below ..

The things you are mentioning are already designed and under production, But again some of these are not reaching out to solider is the fault of mismanagement of various Government branches and result of neglecting Pvt sector ..

Their is everything there for conventional fight, Made and design in India ..

DRDO or Army does not dictate terms its the culprit in MOD and in Uniform ..

May be ... or may not be...

If that was the case we would not be importing :

8,356 Spike-SR ATGMs (FROM Israel's RAFAEL)
and related 321 ultra-light ATGM launchers worth Rs 3,200 crore,

ELTA Systems-built ELM-2138T 'Green Rock' Tactical Counter Rockets, Artillery & Mortars (C-RAM) Systems,

ELBIT Systems Electro-Optics' Long View CR optronic sensors.

Isreali BFSR based on Microsoft windows

LOROS from Isreal

Night Sight and HHTI

Seekers
Sensors
155 ammunition

Tank Ammunition

Heavy trucks



and the list can go on and on....

 

[Kunal Biswas]

We are importing because these product fall into stop gap procurement, The following numbers are peanuts if one really knows the size of Army we are talking ..

1. The ATGM for Infantry is already ready and successfully in trails ATGM call SAMHO, Is a laser beam riding ATGM ..
2. No procurement of such system by Army, Army use BEL WLR ..
3. No procurement of such system by Army, Navy or Airforce, Navy use IRDE made Optics so does Army and Airfroce in their UAV and Army will be on tanks ..
4. No, BEL BFSR
5. No, IRDE design, BEL made long and short range observation and target identifiers ..
6. No, IRDE design, BEL made night sight and TI
7. I can agree over this point but not all sensors
8. I can agree over this point but not all seekers
9. No, DRDO design, OFB made 155mm
10. Only T-90 AP ammunition is being imported, T-72 and Arjun Ammunition are still made in India ..
11. They are now call BEML Heavy trucks, Right handed being made in India ..

For conventional land warfare, Our basics are Indian from Rifle to LMG to RL so does Motar and FG and tanks soon 155mm howitzers and all kind of accessories and ammunition and electronics, The list is huge and cannot be reproduce over fourm ..

1. 8,356 Spike-SR ATGMs (FROM Israel's RAFAEL) and related 321 ultra-light ATGM launchers worth Rs 3,200 crore,
2. ELTA Systems-built ELM-2138T 'Green Rock' Tactical Counter Rockets, Artillery & Mortars (C-RAM) Systems,
3. ELBIT Systems Electro-Optics' Long View CR optronic sensors.
4. Isreali BFSR based on Microsoft windows
5. LOROS from Isreal
6. Night Sight and HHTI
7. Seekers
8. Sensors
9.155 ammunition
10.Tank Ammunition
11. Heavy trucks

and the list can go on and on....

 

[Bhadra]

@Kunal

Have a dekho

TRISHUL

 

[sgarg]

The stated cruise characteristics are from 50m to 05Km of height ... so where is the problem....

The more the terrain features the better is the accuracy of flight path ---- provided there is TERCOM or terrain masking / matching facilities available... They will do that in time to come I suppose....

Go to extreme Eastern edge of India (AP or Nagaland) and then draw a line of 1500 km inside China and then see how much the southern china is covered. All major communication hubs and logistics infrastructure flowing into Tibet will be covered . Neighboring provinces of Yunnan, Sichuan
all airfields are well covered...

I am sure there must be some planning. However the following are important for strategic missiles - a. secure storage, b. movement in secure area (to change location in war time). I expect frequent changes in location during war time to escape detection of exact location.

The longer range of missiles being pursued for eastern border is due to the feeling that missiles have to be launched from either a. main Indian land mass or b. from the sea. For example - storage and movement in West Bengal is far easier compared to the extreme eastern edge. You have to keep your missile safe from attack. You will need several methods for that - hiding your missiles in the first place, moving during night-time only, masking launchers and associated equipment etc.

 

[sgarg]

However tactical missiles with conventional warheads can be moved close to border.

I think Nirbhaya is still in development phase. Expecting Nirbhaya to clear steep mountains or fly through valleys and be able to reach very high Tibetan plateau is expecting too much.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I follow his blog with others, Mr Sengupta make more assumption than facts, He don`t deny that ..

@Kunal

Have a dekho

TRISHUL

 

[Venkytalks]

I am sure there must be some planning. However the following are important for strategic missiles - a. secure storage, b. movement in secure area (to change location in war time). I expect frequent changes in location during war time to escape detection of exact location.

The longer range of missiles being pursued for eastern border is due to the feeling that missiles have to be launched from either a. main Indian land mass or b. from the sea. For example - storage and movement in West Bengal is far easier compared to the extreme eastern edge. You have to keep your missile safe from attack. You will need several methods for that - hiding your missiles in the first place, moving during night-time only, masking launchers and associated equipment etc.

Re this and earlier post

Nirbhay deployment with conventional warhead is needed to take out Chinese radar. That will have to be deployed inside himalayan mountains to escape cold in heated caves, escape attacks, gain range by being closer to border and gain altitude to escape the need to cross himalayas.

Despite that range will be reduced due to rarefied air and some steep climbs to cross remaining mountains. Plus ability of missile to perform in such tough conditions needs to be developed.

Nuke warhead on Nirbhay will be for second strike against Pakistan and sub and ship based against China and Pak.

Re. Imports.

Good that quick action taken.

Self manufacture is not for import substitution but to complement imports to have range of weapons.

Our small arms and artillery should also be exported to earn money and pay for imports. There will be customers for even INSAS rifle if the price is attractive enough.

We must manufacture cheap arms in good numbers for lower intensity warfare like current border shelling by BSF. We can outspend Pak and unlike free nukes and missiles the Chinese wont transfer free mortars.

If the Pakistanis go crying to China for free mortars they will lose face. They wont.

 

[sgarg]

Re this and earlier post
Nirbhay deployment with conventional warhead is needed to take out Chinese radar. That will have to be deployed inside himalayan mountains to escape cold in heated caves, escape attacks, gain range by being closer to border and gain altitude to escape the need to cross himalayas.

Yes I have heard about mountain caves for storing strategic missiles (may be tactical missiles as well). However caves can also be attacked by special forces. An underground facility provides some protection from air attack but there are other problems when a facility is close to the border.

India's strategy is based on mobile strategic missiles. For example, India has NOT deployed silo based missiles. If you were right, then the first action would be to create silos.

I am fairly certain that India will use mobility for both tactical and strategic missile.

The secure storage will be far inland whether in mountain caves or underground bunkers.

The missile used for destroying radar is called "anti radiation missile" which has a seeker to lock on radar by vectoring source of microwave energy. Nirbhaya is not in this category.

 

[bengalraider]

@sgarg -you are partially correct, anti radar missiles are deployed by aircraft against ground based radar. However the problem with deployment of these missiles against an adversary like the Chinese in tibet is that the aircraft carrying the anti radar missiles is severely at threat due to the sheer number of S300 class systems and flanker class aircraft protecting the radar. This is where a cruise missile can be of immense use in destroying radar without putting pilots at risk.
Personally I think the brahmos LACM is going to be the missile used against the Chinese SAM installations, the Nirbhay will simply be shot out of the sky.
Cruise missiles lock on to enemy radar installations by using the receiver component of their active radar seeker, the Russian granat has been known to lock onto enemy communication signals as well to home into communication centers.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-radiation_missile

 

[Venkytalks]

Yes I have heard about mountain caves for storing strategic missiles (may be tactical missiles as well). However caves can also be attacked by special forces. An underground facility provides some protection from air attack but there are other problems when a facility is close to the border.

India's strategy is based on mobile strategic missiles. For example, India has NOT deployed silo based missiles. If you were right, then the first action would be to create silos.

I am fairly certain that India will use mobility for both tactical and strategic missile.

The secure storage will be far inland whether in mountain caves or underground bunkers.

Brahmos has insufficient range to be used in Tibet except along the immediate border.

Chinese are in a position to completely neutralise our anti aircraft and anti missile systems but we are not in a position to neutralise theirs except along the immediate border. So they have an enormous position of air offence and defence superiority.

The main advantage of Nirbhaya over aircraft is that it is difficult to shoot them out of the sky if used in terrain hugging flight paths and to some extent will be of use in conventional warfare.

Nukes can be deployed using land based Nirbhay (regardless of whether it is deployed on mobile launchers or himalayan caves) only in Arunachal Pradesh and perhaps Sikkim, since 1500 km is range of missile, less in rarefied atmosphere.

I doubt if we are going to deploy Nukes from these states

 

[sgarg]

@sgarg -you are partially correct, anti radar missiles are deployed by aircraft against ground based radar. However the problem with deployment of these missiles against an adversary like the Chinese in tibet is that the aircraft carrying the anti radar missiles is severely at threat due to the sheer number of S300 class systems and flanker class aircraft protecting the radar. This is where a cruise missile can be of immense use in destroying radar without putting pilots at risk.
Personally I think the brahmos LACM is going to be the missile used against the Chinese SAM installations, the Nirbhay will simply be shot out of the sky.
Cruise missiles lock on to enemy radar installations by using the receiver component of their active radar seeker, the Russian granat has been known to lock onto enemy communication signals as well to home into communication centers.

Anti-radiation missile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You cannot destroy a radar so easily using a LACM like Nirbhaya. It uses INS which means the missile flies to a fixed coordinate. Getting coordinates of a mobile radar is not exactly easy.

Changing coordinates in flight means very good surveillance capability. This kind of surveillance would require very robust satellite and aircraft based surveillance which can provide a real-time picture. If India had such good sensors (which is actually very difficult task), then it could also build hundreds of fighters (perhaps thousands) to overwhelm Chinese air defenses in Tibet.

The reality is that Nirbhaya will be used as a strategic missile by India. It could be used for tactical purposes but high cost, small number, limits of supporting systems etc. point to a limited operational profile.

A comparison with American Tomahawk missile is not very appropriate due to a variety of factors.

 

[ramakrishna]

image source

 

[cobra commando]

 

[bengalraider]

@sgarg -we have already established the fact that nirbhay can change trajectory mid flight, as far as real time data is concerned much of how that can be acquired is classified. However I assume you the SFF and tibetian irregulars will play a major humint role there. I agree that we do not have a massive spy satellite constellation, but all said and done the RISAT series and the CARTOSAT series provide us with a respectable elint capacity as well.
As far as strategy is concerned, taking out the massive air defence network deployed by the PLA in the TAR is key to any strategic campaign,Without killing those SAM units we will lose the airspace and the war.

 

[sayareakd]

We have to not only keep in mind targets in Tibet and beyond, but we have to equally focus on the commercial heart land, military bases, port and other infrastructure from Sea.

Best way is to keep those missiles on commercial shipping container ship and launch them on China from sea, that will not only confuse PLA navy, but they may hit genuine shipping container, thus distrupting shipping lanes at the time of war. Other ships will take care of PLA navy ships.

 

[bengalraider]

@sayareakd you are talking about a system that would if implemented analogous to the klub container launch system, this type of system though desirable and effective is often a dangerous weapon. Of late militaries around the world have implemented a self imposed rule of not targeting civilian infrastructure,there is a need to think about what would happen if any civilian container ship could be a possible lacm launchpad. Any Indian civilian container ship within range of PLAN or PLAAF assets in the case of hostilities would be targeted and sunk.

 

[sayareakd]

@sayareakd you are talking about a system that would if implemented analogous to the klub container launch system, this type of system though desirable and effective is often a dangerous weapon. Of late militaries around the world have implemented a self imposed rule of not targeting civilian infrastructure,there is a need to think about what would happen if any civilian container ship could be a possible lacm launchpad. Any Indian civilian container ship within range of PLAN or PLAAF assets in the case of hostilities would be targeted and sunk.

Everything is fair in love and war, who said we should have Indian flag............. Pakistani or Chinese will do...........:thumb:

 

[bengalraider]

Everything is fair in love and war, who said we should have Indian flag............. Pakistani or Chinese will do...........:thumb:

If only hiding the identity of a ship was as easy as changing a flag, there are coded transponders that would need to be bypassed, not to mention crew communication chatter would need to be hidden and tuned accordingly as well.
We don't live in the middle ages and neither does our eastern adversary.

But all said and done I like the way you think

 

[sayareakd]

If only hiding the identity of a ship was as easy as changing a flag, there are coded transponders that would need to be bypassed, not to mention crew communication chatter would need to be hidden and tuned accordingly as well.
We don't live in the middle ages and neither does our eastern adversary.

But all said and done I like the way you think

ofcourse not all things will be posted on public forum................

BTW about Crew Chatter, in war with Pakistan, Indian navy used Russian language to spread dis info into PN.

 

[bengalraider]

ofcourse not all things will be posted on public forum................

BTW about Crew Chatter, in war with Pakistan, Indian navy used Russian language to spread dis info into PN.

You're talking about the raids on karachi, I reckon. The finest hour of the navy bar none.
Anyhoo how exactly do you propose we teach each and every mariner onboard an Indian container vessel mandarin or urdu?