Nirbhay Cruise Missile Development

[sayareakd]

For la-whore and pindi Prahaar is sufficient.

with range it will be over kill for Pindi stan. Love to see GHQ going up in fire from all directions.

 

[sgarg]

The forward base itself will have to be in the mountains inside tunnels. Tibet itself is plateau and should be possible to cover by a cruise missile.

Air is thin in the Himalayas. I dont know how Nirbhay would perform but i am sure modifications will be done to overcome.

India does not have suitable launch points close to Tibet. Tibet is not a flat land.

The cruise missiles give India the option to target points deep inside Pakistan from places that Pakistan cannot reach or target easily.

I doubt any strategic missile (cruise or ballistic) will be moved to within 100km of border. Only tactical missiles will be moved close to border.

China is a tough nut to crack due to a number of problems including geography.

 

[Singh]

India does not have suitable launch points close to Tibet. Tibet is not a flat land.

The cruise missiles give India the option to target points deep inside Pakistan from places that Pakistan cannot reach or target easily.

I doubt any strategic missile (cruise or ballistic) will be moved to within 100km of border. Only tactical missiles will be moved close to border.

China is a tough nut to crack due to a number of problems including geography.

Indian ballistic missiles have been stationed in Himalayas. The thinking is that the mountainous caves will be able to withstand wmds.

 

[sgarg]

Indian ballistic missiles have been stationed in Himalayas. The thinking is that the mountainous caves will be able to withstand wmds.

Yes ballistic missiles can go over the Himalayas. The cruise missile operates differently.

When I says strategic, I mean a missile with a special type of warhead. There is no permanent storage facility close to the border.

Below ground facilities are likely to exist at many places, not only in mountains.

The concept of firing missiles with strategic warheads rests on movement in secure areas.

 

[sgarg]

Fighting a war in Tibet is remarkably complex. I feel there is no need.

It is not easy for China also. The Chinese can also get trapped. In the era of nukes, large slow movement of military force is not a viable option.

 

[bengalraider]

@sgarg what makes you think that cruise missiles cannot operate in the himalayas?

 

[W.G.Ewald]

@sgarg what makes you think that cruise missiles cannot operate in the himalayas?

I'll try to answer without checking on specifications, but isn't cruise missile defined by low altitude flight (nap-of the earth)?

 

[bengalraider]

The flight path is nap of the earth, that means maintaining a low altitude over the geographical features the missiles have to fly over, I do not believe there is a height limitation on the geographical feature itself.
I mean tomahawk regularly flew over the hindukush on their way to Afghanistan, and the granat has been flight tested on flightpaths crossing the urals.
Not to mention the tomahawk again had been programmed by the Americans to overfly the zagros mountains in Iran to hit targets in the southern soviet union during the cold war.

 

[pmaitra]

The flight path is nap of the earth, that means maintaining a low altitude over the geographical features the missiles have to fly over, I do not believe there is a height limitation on the geographical feature itself.
I mean tomahawk regularly flew over the hindukush on their way to Afghanistan, and the granat has been flight tested on flightpaths crossing the urals.
Not to mention the tomahawk again had been programmed by the Americans to overfly the zagros mountains in Iran to hit targets in the southern soviet union during the cold war.

From India to Tibet, we have features that involve a sudden change in altitude. I think the question would be, can Nirbhay handle that?

 

[sgarg]

The flight path is nap of the earth, that means maintaining a low altitude over the geographical features the missiles have to fly over, I do not believe there is a height limitation on the geographical feature itself.
I mean tomahawk regularly flew over the hindukush on their way to Afghanistan, and the granat has been flight tested on flightpaths crossing the urals.
Not to mention the tomahawk again had been programmed by the Americans to overfly the zagros mountains in Iran to hit targets in the southern soviet union during the cold war.

Himalayas and Tibet are examples of extremes in geography. Designing a cruise missile which is fired from plains in north India and lands in Tibet plateau is a very big challenge.

I doubt Nirbhaya is up to this task.

Anyway let DRDO complete development flights. The system needs to be inducted in Navy before we make further judgement.

 

[sayareakd]

Himalayas and Tibet are examples of extremes in geography. Designing a cruise missile which is fired from plains in north India and lands in Tibet plateau is a very big challenge.

I doubt Nirbhaya is up to this task.

Anyway let DRDO complete development flights. The system needs to be inducted in Navy before we make further judgement.

any idea what is GSQR and how they start weapons development ?

BTW if Pakistan is less then or equal to 400 km and Nirbhay is more then 1500+ km then what is the target in mind ?

 

[Yusuf]

All missiles have been made and given to the armed forces. I don't think a GSQR has ever been issued for missiles

 

[sayareakd]

All missiles have been made and given to the armed forces. I don't think a GSQR has ever been issued for missiles

if that was the case DRDO would have made Nag manpod long ago, as their was no GSQR, audit didnt allowed them to take the project, that is why no Nag manpod (Told by DRDO guy).

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Nirbay is design as per Indian specific needs, PJ-10 are more than enough for Western sector and Nirbhay has huge implication over eastern sector ..

 

[Yusuf]

if that was the case DRDO would have made Nag manpod long ago, as their was no GSQR, audit didnt allowed them to take the project, that is why no Nag manpod (Told by DRDO guy).

Let me rephrase, all strategic missiles like Prithvi, Agni, K series, cruise missiles.

Missiles like Akash, Trishul, Nag have to satisfy staff req as such missiles have alternatives available from other countries. No choice for strategic missiles.

 

[Bhadra]

All missiles have been made and given to the armed forces. I don't think a GSQR has ever been issued for missiles

That is the problem ... something like Prahar which Army is being forced to induct when they say they do not want that....

Now the Srategic Command may be able to have a say in development and production of strategic assets.

Another negative aspect of the focus of DRDO is to develop weapons for that eventuality which has least chances of occurrence, say a nuclear exchange or exchange of cruise missile. My grouse is that there is no focus on those systems which are used every day and everywhere. Say for example a grenade, an artillery fuse or sensor, helmets, bullet proof jackets, pistol, submachine guns, enhanced quality of explosive, good quality propellants..... etc.

It is not that we lacking in conventional quality of weaponry can not make us loose a conflicts or wars. It is also not sure that our possessing Nuclear weapons and missiles is a guarantee that such wars and conflict will not occur - Kargil did occur. Insurgencies are there . There is a large scope of conventional conflict to occur even under nuclear umbrella which can be very swift and intense and technological.

If that is so, focus on improvement on conventional weaponry is as good a requirement as on strategic missiles and bombs if not more.

One has to see sometimes how the 81 mm Mortar bombs are assembled by Dehu Road in a WWI fashion in a lethargic manner. There is no focus on it .. Chalta hai.. but for a soldier who fires it .. there is nothing known as "Chalta Hai" for him it is matter of life and death.

DRDO needs a balance in focus.. They require to be user friendly rather than dictating terms..

 

[Bhadra]

India does not have suitable launch points close to Tibet. Tibet is not a flat land.

The cruise missiles give India the option to target points deep inside Pakistan from places that Pakistan cannot reach or target easily.

I doubt any strategic missile (cruise or ballistic) will be moved to within 100km of border. Only tactical missiles will be moved close to border.

China is a tough nut to crack due to a number of problems including geography.

The stated cruise characteristics are from 50m to 05Km of height ... so where is the problem....

The more the terrain features the better is the accuracy of flight path ---- provided there is TERCOM or terrain masking / matching facilities available... They will do that in time to come I suppose....

Go to extreme Eastern edge of India (AP or Nagaland) and then draw a line of 1500 km inside China and then see how much the southern china is covered. All major communication hubs and logistics infrastructure flowing into Tibet will be covered . Neighboring provinces of Yunnan, Sichuan
all airfields are well covered...

 

[pmaitra]

The stated cruise characteristics are from 50m to 05Km of height ... so where is the problem....

The more the terrain features the better is the accuracy of flight path ---- provided there is TERCOM or terrain masking / matching facilities available...

No, the problem is launching from India into Tibet across the Himalayas. From the Indian side, the Himalayas rise abruptly, so the missile will have to gain altitude from quite a distance, and once flying over the Himalayas, its minimum height has to be above the tallest ridge-lines. Terrain masking that you are talking about is going to be ineffective.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

That is where you making the error, Nothing is made or funded without Requirement and DRDO budget is least compare to what needed for such task as said below ..

The things you are mentioning are already designed and under production, But again some of these are not reaching out to solider is the fault of mismanagement of various Government branches and result of neglecting Pvt sector ..

Their is everything there for conventional fight, Made and design in India ..

DRDO or Army does not dictate terms its the culprit in MOD and in Uniform ..

That is the problem ... something like Prahar which Army is being forced to induct when they say they do not want that....

My grouse is that there is no focus on those systems which are used every day and everywhere. Say for example a grenade, an artillery fuse or sensor, helmets, bullet proof jackets, pistol, submachine guns, enhanced quality of explosive, good quality propellants..... etc.

It is not that we lacking in conventional quality of weaponry can not make us loose a conflicts or wars. - Kargil did occur. Insurgencies are there . There is a large scope of conventional conflict to occur even under nuclear umbrella which can be very swift and intense and technological.

If that is so, focus on improvement on conventional weaponry is as good a requirement as on strategic missiles and bombs if not more.

DRDO needs a balance in focus.. They require to be user friendly rather than dictating terms..

 

[Bhadra]

No, the problem is launching from India into Tibet across the Himalayas. From the Indian side, the Himalayas rise abruptly, so the missile will have to gain altitude from quite a distance, and once flying over the Himalayas, its minimum height has to be above the tallest ridge-lines. Terrain masking that you are talking about is going to be ineffective.

Why launch from Guwahati? Why not fro Sela or Twang or Kibithu. Even if launched from Guhati or Dibugarh it can follow valley like an aircraft does or rather better than an aircraft. I am sure all aircrafts would not fly over 5km height to reach Tibet.

About TERCOM it is better and more accurate for the missile that it has clear and distinguishable features in route to match with data that is fed into its computer. It become difficult over featureless terrain.

See this from 23:50 - 45:40 ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWOoHx2c3i4

In Iraq the US Tomahawks had to take long detours over Northern boundary of Iraq to reach accurately over Bagdad and then enter through even a window.

Yes the problem over the Tibet will be reduced weight, less speed and lesser range due to rarified air and altitude of flight - same as for the aircrafts.