Well, let us go back the original posts where we started, let us make it clear under what context did i quote that Chinese saying, because i am getting sick of you people stretching my words without reference to the certain circumstances.
This is the post by myfair to which I was replying by bringing up the starvation in India. He said something like we should stop preaching Indians.
My reply is this one, in which I was contending Indians sometimes are more fond of preaching others and I used starvation as an example.
If I was an Indian and I disagreed some point in that post, say the starvation part, I would refute the post by proving India had less starvation than China or China had more starvation than India at present.
Well, some Indian member certainly does not follow suit, let us see how Ray reply to this. He didn't get back to me directly by quoting my post, but the content in his post indicates he was unhappy with the starvation part in my post.
So what the purpose does this post serve? I was wondering at first, it certainly can't prove India is better than China regarding starvation. Then it occurred to me he may be trying to neutralize the frustration caused by India's failure in solving the poverty by bringing up famine happened in China over 40 years ago. That is why I quoted that Chinese saying "live in the present",merely to remind him that dwelling on the past, especially China's past, does no good to India.
This is my post
Now I think people can get a full picture of this discussion, anyone who can point out where I mentioned something like forgetting about history? Or am i more like suggesting people should focus more on the present?
Don't dwell on the past=forget about the past?
And where does that territorial claim thing come from? What does it have to do with"live in the present"?
Most territorial claims are based on the historical ground, it is just a common tactic adopted by everyone.
The following part is off topic.
I quoted that saying for a reason, because Ray has developed a bad habit of citing old Chinese history rather than resorting to the present China to prove his odd theory which he believes can suit the present China. That is hilarious, isn't it?
Ray's obsession with the old China is quite inexplicable. History, though is always used as a mirror, can't tell the full picture of the present. Not to mention that Ray's historical knowledge about China is very partial, which further reduces the creditability of his theory.
As per my observation, I speculate there are two reasons behind Ray's obsession with the old China.
First, Ray may be trying to prove the original sin in China's rising which he believes is rooted in the whole Chinese civilization, it makes denying the positive sides of China's rising more convenient. That is probably why we have witnessed Ray brought up the ancient China's territorial expansion again and again and used it as a proof of the existence of imperialism in the present China. In fact, territorial expansion existed in almost every country in the old days before modern international laws were established. But that can't stop him from singling China out and making China an exception.
Second, Ray may be unable to face the present China. From dealing with the old China, he can gain more confidence, especially when he was studying the history of China being ruled by non-Hans. That is probably why we can hear the ridiculous claim that Manchu are not Chinese, because that fits well for his mental masturbation that China had been ravaged by foreigners as India had by British. Minority ruled India before, but no one called them non-Indian. Well I have expressed this idea before, so I am stopping here.
Nice talking to you guys.
It is always interesting to have a tête-à -tête with you.
While you are entitled to rebut what myfair has written, but in a forum, anything written, even if it is one to one, can be commented upon by another, if the said person feels it is essential to clear the air. I took such a course.
Indeed all Orientals, be they Indians or Chinese, do take recourse to a wee bit of moral high standing. Nothing new! I beg to disagree that we are fonder of preaching than the Chinese. Who 'teaches lessons' to its neighbours? Not India. It is the Chinese who wanted to teach, not only the Indians a lesson, but also the Vietnamese! So, they are the preacher of all good things, and of all thing bright and beautiful, all creatures great or small. (In case you did not know, it is a Christian hymn in praise of God!) So, China is the teacher and God of the block! China proposes and China disposes! Wow! And Double Wow!!
Now, starvation is indeed a sore point with a whole lot of countries, including India. The environments creating starvation are many. The baseline for starvation in the West need not be the same in India as is the oft used term you find – living on less than $2!! $2 goes a long way in India and that is not fathomable by the West. It does not go in the US, but there sure are people who are starving. Times also change. For instance, I marvelled when my father used to tell me that 4 annas (16 made the Rupee) would get you a maund of rice (I don't know the equivalent in kilo, but it was a bag worth!). Starvation is also caused by poor distribution systems like in India. It can be also caused by local authorities who will slavedrive on little food (as in China). I would also like to state that starvation cases are also there in the West, even though not so publicised as even it is observed in the East.
Therefore, the issue is not who has more starvation. The issue is what the causes are. Therefore, coy smugness in hectoring does appear a trifle misplaced. I am not unhappy at your post on Starvation in India. I merely brought out some facts since I found you adrift having lost your moorings!
Corruption is universal. The mode is different. What was Enron, or the Wall Street collapse all about? Isn't Mismanagement or duping the common man and stealing his money and fudging the books not corruption? Heard about the Mafia buying up Senators or of the Teamsters? And China? Purer than Virgin Mary? I can go on giving examples, but I will give it a break.
Indian education is not perfect, but it is pretty good. Our universities and colleges are world class in imparting education. The number of India graduates abroad and contributing is an example of its prowess. The fact that outsourcing is causing such heartburn to the US is an indicator of Indian education.
It is an incorrect assumption that the Indian Army is treating people brutally. The Indian Army is addressing terrorists and I am sure you are aware that Pakistanis, Afghanis, Uzbeks, Pathans are not Kashmiris – the chaps against whom the Indian Army action is being taken. The very fact that Arundhuti Roy and Verabear Rao can preach the break up of India in a seminar in New Delhi should show how tolerant the government is. By Law, it is sedition and yet they are not being arrested! So, that should show what human rights is all about. Compare it with the action taken against the Gang of Four, or Liu Xiaobo and a host of other such people, who are taken for 're-education' which simply means jail. The 'good work' during the Tibetan and Uighur unrest is surely not the ideal example of human rights! Therefore, the Chinese are hardly in a position to talk about human rights to India! I hope the message is loud and clear!
I agree India has fought more wars than China. China does not fight wars. It only 'teaches lessons'! Just check how many lessons China has been teaching and you would get the answer.
We may not have signed anything, but the stark fact remains that India has NOT engaged in Proliferation. China HAS China acceded to the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) as a nuclear-weapon state, but it has given Pakistan the nuclear knowhow and for all one knows, a live nuke for 'development' purpose.
Of course, it is always the Indians who start the fracas here. One does not expect you to think otherwise, since that is also the CCP view that India is the cause of all ills of the world, while the Chinese are but idols as in a Japanese Shinto shrine!
It is good that you try to remind us of our problems. May I ask, if you take it upon yourself to teaches us, then who is preaching?
You mentioned 'There is a saying in China, "活在当下", which loosely translates into "live in the present". Now, what does it mean? How can one live in the present if one has no regards to one's history? Everyone lives in the present, what is so cataclysmic about the saying unless it was mentioned with a loaded innuendo! The past imposes on the present and it is inclusive!
One could focus on the present, but when someone raises an issue that is uncomfortable to the one who was harping on the present to sail his/ her boat, then one is forced to remind the person about their 'glorious past' that seems to tarnish their present!
Most territorial claims of China are tweaks in history. For instance, a flash of suzerainty is converted to justify annexation.
I regret to say my historical knowledge of China is partial. I am yet to find such self appointed historians like you refuting any single comment of mine! So, in true Chinese style, you make sweeping statements and pass them as Gospel Truth! Please do not overreach yourself!
Old history but similar mindset in the present. The fact that you have not refuted the history and that it has irked you, is proof enough that what I wrote is hardly 'partial'? I am constrained to state it is not I who is hilarious, it is you who is having all roll on the floor laughing or as the Americans say LMAO!!
It is so interesting to note that you are a mind reader and you can read into my mind and state why I resort to history of China. I am afraid you are wrong by a long shot.
I like reading history. I like knowing people and their culture and their background. It helps in understanding peoples. I presume that is no crime.
Let us address your claim that all Nations are guilty of territorial expansion. That is correct. What is reprehensible of China is not only imperialism, but cultural and linguistic genocide of people invaded and their lands captured! In one of the thread where the Miao issue was being discussed, one of the Chinese posters himself mentioned that they have been Hanised! And it is a historical and ethnocultural fact that all peoples invaded south of Yangtse were treated as 'barbarians' and until the 1930s, the names of the outgroups (wai ren) were commonly written in characters with the animal radical: the Di, a northern tribe were linked to the dog; the Man and Min of the South were characterised with reptiles; the Qiangs were written with a sheep radical. This reflected the Han Chinese conviction that civilisation and culture were linked with humanity; alien groups living outside the pale of Han society were regarded as inhuman savages.
The custom of sharply distinguishing between the inner and outer people went along with the calling China the Middle Kingdom (zhong guo) , which began by ruling the Central plain (zhongyang) in North China. Rather than using outright military conquest, the theory of 'using the Chinese ways to transform the barbarians (yongxiabianyi)' was promulgated. By cultural absorption or racial integration through intermarriage, a barbarian could become a Han Chinese (Hanhua).
What have you to say about this inhuman attitude and forcing people to adopt Han culture and identity?
It is not that I cannot face present China. I have, many a time. I am also very appreciative of the strides made by China throughout history. I am on record here to acknowledge the growth and rise of modern China. However, that in no way makes me a votary of Blind Faith. I am also quite critical of the faults of India. So, don't gloat that negative China alone fascinates me.
What, however marvels me is the unholy haste of China to wipe out history and act smug that every part of China was and is Han! Why this indecent haste to make all learn Mandarin, adopt Han culture and wipe away from memory of their own language, culture and heritage? Historically, it has been done, but if 'we live in the present', then God's Truth is that old style imperialism has no place and modern people will refuse to take such horrendous diktats of forgetting who they are. Hence, you have the Tibetan and Uighurs refusing to comply.
I am not lecturing you, but take the example of India. While India is one, the Central Govt does not impose that all should talk and write in Hindi and adopt UP or MP culture and forget their origin. I am a Bengali and while I am as good an Indian as any other, I also revel in being a Bengali with all its joys and warts of our culture, heritage, language and history. Therefore, there is no cultural and historical genocide in India but the same cannot be said of China!
I disagree on your contention that I 'mentally masturbate'. I appreciate your limited grasp of English and hence you resort to American vulgar 'catch all' phrases. I don't mentally masturbate. I merely mentally stimulate my brains to discern through the inexactitude that you and your ilk churn in an assembly line mode of platitudinous disinformation. And when informed so, you feign to be an aggrieved party.
Indeed India has been ruled by foreigners and they are not called Indians. They are and still are called British.
If you mean Moghuls and Muslims, then most of the Muslim are Hindu convertees and are thus Indians. The Moguls adopted India and so they are Indians. And here comes the coup de grace – they continue to follow their Muslim culture and have not been forced into the ancient Indian culture unlike China, where all have been forced to forget their past and become Hans!!
Nice talking to you.