MMRCA News and Discussions - Part II

[Armand2REP]

Dassault's liabilities are supposedly more than MiG. Without Brazil or India, the Rafale will go through difficult phases during MLU. Like I said, French Air force and Navy cannot absorb enough fighters. Algeria debacle did not destroy anything.

Dassault Systemes is doing far better than RAC-MiG. 2009 profit margin was 18%. RAC-MiG operates at a 14% loss. Algeria debacle placed them on the edge of bankruptcy. With 55b in NPLs VEB had to give them an emergency 15b roubles. Dassault doesn't have any liabilities with Rafale because they produce them within budget and on time. MiG-35 development and production is not likely to go that way. MN and ALA can absorb every fighter Dassault makes for the next 10 years, that has been the production plan all along. MiG's reputation has fallen so low the Yak-130 production was moved to Irkut, MiG-35 orders never came and neither did MiG-29 upgrades. The AT and 1.44 lost out. The only future for MiG in Russia is the Navy and that is a weak one.

The Russian Navy is interested in the Mig-29k. Indian Navy wants more Mig-29k. So, there is a chance for them to salvage their reputation. A potential 5th gen fighter will give new life to the company.

Russia already has their 5th gen selection, MiG lost. They already have their AT selected, MiG lost. They already have their long-term front-line aviation upgrade selected, MiG lost. MiG-31 engine production shutdown, another loss. The only bright spot is the Rusnav order which has yet to be signed.

Boeing had a healthy run of the Super Hornet. I am not a great fan of this plane. But, it has done well enough to get back the entire cost of the project and much more. However, you did say the Silent Eagle will do well. It is yet to be seen what the future holds in store for the SE. Nevertheless, Beoing's other major products are still required. Nearly 200 Poseidons are coming up along with a whole host of other projects that includes the 2020 Bomber. This is one company that will never go in the red.

All of the SHs sold were to the USN except a handful to RAAF. I don't call that getting the money back when the export orders don't exceed development cost. I have high hopes for the SE, but a lack of domestic orders may kill it. The failure of JSF might just save it. I never said Boeing was in danger of bankruptcy, just that they are facing a hurdle that may force them out of the fighter market. LockMart is sucking all their wind and US Congress doesn't seem to care.

NG development is paltry compared to the entire Gripen program. The Gripen program has been relatively cheaper than the Rafale and there are currently more Gripens flying compared to the Rafale. It does not take a genius to figure out which one has been more successful.

Gripen operational costs are forcing Sweden to send 104 into early scrapping. Rafale numbers go up, Gripen goes down. When you scrap over half your fleet 15 years prematurely, I call that a failure.

You are missing the point. Gripen, SH and F-16 have had concrete orders that has helped the companies to earn back what was lost during development. Their future is not in jeopardy. If the F-16 is finished, then the F-35 will take over. But, what will happen if Rafale program is shut down due to insufficient orders?

The development is largely funded by the governments so the companies don't lose anything unless they lost the tender. Getting the money back is how much you export vs development costs. SH is still in the red, Gripen is starting to break even, half their exports so far have been on lease. Rafale obviously has no exports, but will soon change and pay the development costs two fold. It will soon be the most earned back percentage to government funding for all MMRCA contenders. It won't be shut down until the government production run is concluded in 2018-20. DGA still has to replace retiring aircraft regardless of exports.

The current orders at nearly 700 is 3 times greater than the Rafale. The EF will still see more orders compared to Rafale even after cutting back.

The current orders are 559 and those are likely to be cut again as Tranche 3 costs continue to rise. Lets just say EF does reach 700 units and Rafale only 400. EF consortium has to split the benefits between 4 nations, France only one. The workshare for the two major partners UK/Germany = a sale of only 230 aircraft each. The development costs just for the UK (33%) were €6 billion while total Rafale development cost €5 billion. We didn't have to put up with all the multi-national delays and cost disputes that have plagued the EF either. Rafale will be more successful for us than EF has been to any of her partners.

I am not saying Rafale is not a successful program. Just that it is less successful compared to other programs in the deal.

Rafale has been less successful in exports to date... no one can argue with that. It has been a dismal failure in that regard. But to date is about to change. I am not only willing to bet money Dassault will take Brasil and UAE, but have put €4000 into it and Thales stock. Money where my mouth is I believe the phrase to be.

I doubt the truth in that statement. Rafale program costs have been pegged at $30Billion through open sources, who knows how much more? EF shouldn't be more than twice that amount. Or are you suggesting development costs of EF is $90-100Billion?

Rafale development cost is different than programme cost. Development cost was €5 billion. The programme cost is €27 billion for a production run of 230 aircraft. It is hard to say what the final EF programme costs and production run will be, but the development costs alone were €18 billion. The cost of the EF has risen so much the UK's audit office has refused to audit the programme out of "commercial sensitivity." Exact quote from the NAO...

"One project, the Typhoon aircraft, is excluded from the analysis of costs as the information is commercially sensitive."

http://www.nao.org.uk/system_pages/idoc.ashx?docid=e8026e85-9161-4e34-9689-06b69cd56648&version=-1

There are too many speculations about Rafale winning major export orders. I am a Rafale supporter, but I will have to be practical about it. The UAE order is coming. The Brazil order is for 36. It is yet to be seen if they will exercise the option of going for more than 36 at this point of time. MRCA win is speculation too, since Rafale needs its new engine in order to compete.

It isn't so speculative when your President makes it a top priority to get it done as a matter of national security. The Brasil order is for 4 batches with the first being 36. That is why this tender has turned from a $2.2 billion deal into nearly $10 billion. I don't have high hopes for the MMRCA. I think EF is in the lead now and that doesn't really bother me. Thales makes about $4 million worth of equipment for every Typhoon sold. Rafale doesn't need the new engine for MMRCA, it needs it for the Kaveri core and UAE thrust requirement.

 

[Armand2REP]

And if you had any doubt RAC-MiG doesn't have a horrible reputation, Lebanon has refused FREE MiG-29s from Russia. How sad is that?

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=119618&sectionid=351020203

 

[proud_hindustani]

http://www.funtrivia.com/en/subtopics/Eurofighter-Typhoon-II-217381.html

Fact about Eurofighter Typhoon

An early design that led to the Typhoon, the Future European Fighter Aircraft, had five member nations: Britain, Germany, Spain, France and Italy. After massive disagreements in 1985, which nation went on their own and designed their own aircraft?
France. France required a lightweight fighter that could operate from an aircraft carrier. The F/EFA was too heavy, and after further disagreement (France wanted 50% of the workshare and overall project control, which Britain and Germany found unacceptable), Britain, Germany and Italy left the consortium and formed their own EFA project, which Spain later joined. France ultimately designed the Rafale, which is now their carrier-based air superiority fighter.

One of the primary high-tech sensors used in the Typhoon is PIRATE? What does it stand for?
Passive Infra Red Airborne Tracking Equipment. The PIRATE system is designed so the Typhoon can detect, identify, target and engage hostile aircraft out to 50nm, without being detected by enemy aircraft (it does not emit any sort of electromagnetic radiation like a radar). It incorporates both Forward Looking Infra Red (FLIR) and Infra Red Search and Track (IRST) systems.It is constructed by Pilkington-Thorn Optronics (now Thales Optronics).

What sort of wing design does the Typhoon have?
Delta-canard tail-less. The delta wing provides an incredibly efficient lifting surface, and provides high lift at all speeds. The pitch (up and down) of the aircraft is provided by the control canards just below the cockpit, in front of the main wing. Control canards provide superior maneouvrability, and combined with the high lift wing and incredibly powerful engines, the Typhoon is capable of pulling maneouvres that can be difficult in conventional layout aircraft.

How many internal guns does the Typhoon have?
1. The single barrel Mauser BK-27 cannon fires up to 1700 27mm shells per minute. While slower than Gatling-type guns like the 20mm M61A1 (up to 6600 rpm), the BK-27 does not have to spin up to full speed like its multi-barreled counterpart. In 0.5 sec, the BK-27 spits out 4kg of shells, while the M61A1 fires 2kg (although the 20mm will fire more rounds in total).

How many external stations for weapons and fuel does the Typhoon have?
13. The Typhoon has one centreline hardpoint, four conformal fuselage hardpoints, and four hardpoints on each wing. Maximum payload is between 6500-7500kg, which includes up to ten missiles (two more than the F-22 Raptor).

The original engine that powered test version of the Typhoon was the RB199, as used in the Panavia Tornado. What powers the Typhoon now?
EJ200. The EJ200 has almost half as many parts as the RB199 (1,800 vs 2,845) and produces 13,500 lb of thrust (22,500 lb with afterburner). Each engine can be replaced by two technicians (with the right equipment) in about 45 minutes. The F100-PW-100 is the Pratt & Whitney engine used by the F-15 Eagle.

The Typhoon II is designed to land on a carrier.
f. Eurofighter is looking into future variants that can land on carriers, but is currently more focused on enhancing its existing capabilities. Even though it has an arrestor hook, it is for emergency runway landings if the brakes/parachute fail.

The Typhoon can engage air targets behind it.
t. The combination of the helmet mounted sight and the highly maneouvrable Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air Missile (ASRAAM) allows the Typhoon to attack aircraft "over the shoulder". This makes the Typhoon even more dangerous in a dogfight, as it doesn't have to be pointed at its target to fire.

Is the Typhoon classed as a stealth aircraft?
n. The Typhoon was never designed for stealth, but is a Low Observable aircraft. There are a number of design features that reduce the radar cross section of the aircraft, making it about one tenth that of the Tornado. Radar absorbent materials, automatic emission controls, and S-shaped intakes to prevent radar reflection off engine compressor blades are a few of the many measures employed.

The Typhoon II can take off and land vertically.
f. The biggest issue with VTOL (Vertical Take Off and Landing) is that you must produce more thrust than the aircraft weighs. In order to achieve this with a full weapons load, the Typhoon must produce in excess of 50,000 lbs of thrust just to get it off the ground. This is currently very difficult to do with vectored thrust engines like the Harrier, and fan-lift engines like the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

 

[slenke]

Gripen operational costs are forcing Sweden to send 104 into early scrapping. Rafale numbers go up, Gripen goes down. When you scrap over half your fleet 15 years prematurely, I call that a failure.

You are so wrong and have no idea what you are talking about. The reason they were scrapped prematurely was not that it was an expensive plane, but that Sweden cut down on the defence a lot. So they couldn't afford them. So that is not a failure, it's called the Berlin wall and a drastic chance in politics and security. The Gripen was developed with economy in mind as defence against an invasion from the former Soviet Union during the cold war. Please don't even think about saying that the Gripen has high operating costs, especially in an international perspective. The swedish defence spending is at an all time low, that is why the fleet has been reduced to 100 planes.

Please compare development costs, unit cost and program unit cost between the Rafale and Gripen, then write down your conlcusion for us please.

 

[Armand2REP]

I have to disagree Slenke. You can't compare the development costs between the two when the Rafale is far more capable and far more indigenous. To do so is like comparing the Rafale to the JF-17 with Thales upgrades. Gripen is chocked full of foreign parts and NG will only be more so. Much of the development has already been or being done by other countries. If you want to come up with a cost vs capabilities/indigenous quotient it might be possible, but that will only reduce Sweden's success margin. Sweden just doesn't have the budget or R&D capabilties to offer a fighter with the amount of ToT that needs to go with it for a country wanting licensed production with no strings. Rafale can do so much more than Gripen they aren't even in the same class.

The decision by Sweden to scrap 52% of Gripens 15 years early shows the plane is unaffordable. As you say "they couldn't afford them." The Czech Republic is facing a huge scandal over their Gripens as UKs Serious Fraud Office investigates BAE and Saab officials for bribing Czech politicans. There are similar investigations in South Africa and Hungary. Much suspicion remains over Thailand as well. It appears the only way Gripen can be sold is if multi-million dollar bribes are paid out to politicians. Once the bribery is confirmed, there will be mass fines and lawsuits paid out.

 

[slenke]

I have to disagree Slenke. You can't compare the development costs between the two when the Rafale is far more capable and far more indigenous. To do so is like comparing the Rafale to the JF-17 with Thales upgrades. Gripen is chocked full of foreign parts and NG will only be more so. Much of the development has already been or being done by other countries. If you want to come up with a cost vs capabilities/indigenous quotient it might be possible, but that will only reduce Sweden's success margin. Sweden just doesn't have the budget or R&D capabilties to offer a fighter with the amount of ToT that needs to go with it for a country wanting licensed production with no strings. Rafale can do so much more than Gripen they aren't even in the same class.

The decision by Sweden to scrap 52% of Gripens 15 years early shows the plane is unaffordable. As you say "they couldn't afford them." The Czech Republic is facing a huge scandal over their Gripens as UKs Serious Fraud Office investigates BAE and Saab officials for bribing Czech politicans. There are similar investigations in South Africa and Hungary. Much suspicion remains over Thailand as well. It appears the only way Gripen can be sold is if multi-million dollar bribes are paid out to politicians. Once the bribery is confirmed, there will be mass fines and lawsuits paid out.

So, if for example over 200 Gripen planes is considered unaffordable for Sweden, does it make it unaffordable for France?. Just because a plane can be considered expensive for a country doesn't make it expensive as a plane from an international perspective. Gripen is A LOT cheaper than the Rafale. And if you compare the two, the Rafale is certainly not worth the price difference in unit cost as well as mainenance costs. For a country with a limited defence budget, the Gripen is a lot more affordable than the Rafale, period. The Rafale are very much like french cars, way overpriced. And why is the maintenace costs so rediciously high for the Rafale?

Sweden do have the R&D capabilities, no question about that, but why invent the wheel over and over? is it worth it? Why for example invent the Gripen engine when there already is one wich is partly a Volvo engine?

France has a scary habit of making business in military products with not-so-very-democratic-countries-where-bribary-is-accepted. So I'm sure France has bribed a few in the past..Like Airbus and the Saudi arabia bribing.

Yeah yeah, I will only believe that when there is proof, and please show me the export success that Rafale is? And selling warplanes is geopolitics, that's why american planes are so popular and Sweden do not have much to put up against the US in that area I'm afraid. However France do, and still no exports? Time for bribary perhaps?

Edit: Back when the Gripen was designed, 204 planes where not considered unaffordable. But when the Berlin wall fell and the Cold War ended, the defence budget was cut in half, because the same threat were no longer there. So that was the reason, not that the plane itself was too expensive. The number of planes just wasn't necessary. Know your history.

 

[Armand2REP]

The true history of Gripen sales has been revealed, it is filled with lies, deciet and bribes. Swedish TV has exposed the scam known as Gripen for all the world to see. Indians should be keen to watch the documentary located here.

http://svtplay.se/v/1423927/oppet_a...,f,105079/pl,v,,1423726/sb,k103213,1,f,105079

A nation, such as India, that requires deals free from corruption will not be buying this plane.

 

[rocky2]

can anyone among the 6 contender which one will emerge as the final winner.. I'm so curious to see the tri-color either on rafale or EF

 

[sunnyv]

Open question to all
Whether SU30 can carry METEOR+R77 in tandem.(su30 has open architecture i read).
Will MRCA have open architecture and if yes can it carry PYTHON4,5+ASRAAM both for short range and Meteor+Mica for bvr mission
and will india be allowed/ is it possible to use ASTRA/ r77 on MRCA

 

[p2prada]

Open question to all
Whether SU30 can carry METEOR+R77 in tandem.(su30 has open architecture i read).

Yes. Modifications are necessary though.

Will MRCA have open architecture and if yes can it carry PYTHON4,5+ASRAAM both for short range and Meteor+Mica for bvr mission
and will india be allowed/ is it possible to use ASTRA/ r77 on MRCA

Not if the MRCA winner is American. American means only AIM-120D. European contenders....may be.

Only possible on the Mig-35 as of now.

 

[Armand2REP]

Open question to all
Whether SU30 can carry METEOR+R77 in tandem.(su30 has open architecture i read).
Will MRCA have open architecture and if yes can it carry PYTHON4,5+ASRAAM both for short range and Meteor+Mica for bvr mission
and will india be allowed/ is it possible to use ASTRA/ r77 on MRCA

They all have open architecture with 1533MIL databus as standard. The question is are the suppliers willing to eat the cost of integrating all those missiles and will the countries be willing to allow it, but it can be done.

 

[slenke]

The true history of Gripen sales has been revealed, it is filled with lies, deciet and bribes. Swedish TV has exposed the scam known as Gripen for all the world to see. Indians should be keen to watch the documentary located here.

http://svtplay.se/v/1423927/oppet_a...,f,105079/pl,v,,1423726/sb,k103213,1,f,105079

A nation, such as India, that requires deals free from corruption will not be buying this plane.

How come the Swedish courts just freed SAAB from corruption charges then? If SAAB where so full of corruption as you say, why is India even considering it? They are testing it you know..

 

[p2prada]

How come the Swedish courts just freed SAAB from corruption charges then? If SAAB where so full of corruption as you say, why is India even considering it? They are testing it you know..

Sweden and Bofors scandal is pretty well known in India. All countries except the US has been in some corruption scam with India. It includes Russia, France, Israel, Sweden and a couple more. So, who cares? if the jet is good enough, we will buy.

 

[sathya]

India considers tandem MMRCA radar competition
The Indian Air Force (IAF) may run a separate radar competition in tandem with its Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) programme, Russian industry sources have...
01-Mar-2010

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Yes. Modifications are necessary though.



Not if the MRCA winner is American. American means only AIM-120D. European contenders....may be.

Only possible on the Mig-35 as of now.

Americans are the least flexible in what they are offering in the MRCA and they have done the minimal modifications as per Indian requirements, USA likes to just ship from factory they are not into customizing as they have little to no history of doing that in the defense sector. Both planes in MRCA are more or less 40 year old airframes rehashed with some add ons and given a higher number especially with the F-16. Americans planes will hopeflully be the first ones shortlisted and out.

 

[bengalraider]

@LF What you have said is inherently correct with both the teen fighters we are getting aging designs as are we with the Mig 35 ;the only new airframes in this competition are the eurocanards; however the sad truth is that any large arms purchase is always going to be a geopolitical decision made behind the closed doors of south block rather than a technical one to be made by IAF engineers on the field, do not count out the Americans where they lose in design they gain in the sheer "rhino in the living room "type geopolitical power they command.The Europeans by comparison stand third behind even the Russians as far as the Indian political scenario is concerned.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

BR you have a very valid point but if we are trying to buy Geopolitical influence we are not going to succeed in spending 10 billion+ on a second class outdated plane when USA has given 40+ billion to Pakistan over the course of the war on terror. I am trying to leave geopolitics out and see what the best deal is and it definetly is not the American offers, if it comes down to buying a geopolitical favors from the deal and choosing then I would say SH has a chance but I give F-16 less than .5% chance. One more point about the political angle after USA gave us the nuclear deal and there isn't too much USA can do for us we are still viewed as a threat to USA and they are still trying to contain us thru Pakistan and calling it the war on terror.

 

[Armand2REP]

India considers tandem MMRCA radar competition
The Indian Air Force (IAF) may run a separate radar competition in tandem with its Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) programme, Russian industry sources have...
01-Mar-2010

I need a link mate............

 

[sunnyv]

I need a link mate............

You need to have a paid account of Janes defence Subscription - If you have one i can show you the link

 

[Armand2REP]

You need to have a paid account of Janes defence Subscription - If you have one i can show you the link

If you have an account, copy the article here.