MMRCA 2.0: News & Discussions

[Corvus Splendens]

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

In 2014, itself when Modi was sworn as PM if he had any decent defense minister first he should have a Strategy like this a Short-term goal and long-term goal LOGICALLY. The Short term goal is to replace ageing fighter jets and long term goal is to field indigenous fifth gen fighter aircraft. Iam as patriotic as i can get but at that time we should had scrapped Tejas Program and also the Tejas Mk2 program as they NEITHER FILL NUMBERs IN SHORT TERM(IT's 2023, a full 9 YEARs & ONLY 50 are built against the backlog) NOR EVEN PUT A LITTLE FIGHT AGAINST FIFTH GEN AIRCRAFT IN LONG TERM because they are 4.5gen. The Tejas& Tejas Mk2 was,is & will be in an awkward position of Neither achieving short term goals nor achieving long term goal. We should have scrapped Tejas and start 2 new fighter jet programs indigenously, one with single engine and another with twin engine. We should have been even ready to pay upto 150M per jet even having leniency in no domestic manufacturing but 100% ToT of Know-Why or atleast Know-How of Jet engines is Must. We can let go on local assembly and all that but the Engines have to be made from scratch not even importing single screw. It is better if we give that job to Godrej Aerospace who are now to manufacture Kaveri w/o afterburner. They may absorb technology fast than useless trash HAL. If in a scenario we brought F-21 by LM, be it a stop gap measure. Atleast F-21 is better than Mig-21 and had we ordered that we would have replaced all that Flying coffins by 2019 and won't be embarrassed internationally by that incident in balakot. Had we opted for F-21 in numbers like 150 which can replace all our Mig-21, Mig-29 and some older jets, we may had chance of manufacturing F110 which is more powerful than F414(which we recently negotiated a deal). We may even had to sweeten the deal to USA by ordering our airlines to order more Commerial Boeing jets or more Maritime Patrol or Tanker or Transport or even LM2500 engines for Warships. All that fear of US Sanctions are farce because we STILL ARE GOING TO USE USA ENGINEs IN NOW UPCOMING AMCA Jet. The deal with USA is for F-21 but in reality it is to get hands on F110 Engine. I don't know USA will agree for ToT like F414 for F110 if we are ordering in huge numbers. With F110 we can design two fifth gen planes that will replace our fleet of some 750 planes in future. With F110 we can design a Light-Medium 17.50-18.00 Ton Stealth Jet and 25.00-27.50 Ton Stealth Jet where both of them can supercruise since everything is stored internally. Now we had to settle for subpar F414 engine in AMCA. Since government is new, he should have boldly go forward with a consortium formed by Reliance-Tata-Adani like those in Korean Aerospace Industries partially owned by Chaebol. No HAL in the equation of fighter jets, instead they should have been alloted a common airframe like A321 to work on with all Sensor Platforms like Tanker,AWACs,Ground Surveillance, MaritimePatrol Etc. The Private consortium would have been able to churn out jets very quickly. As much i love my country, as much i want to indigenize as much as possible to create our Own MIC, prevent ourflow of FOREX , TEJAS FULLFILLs NEITHER SHORT TERM GOAL OF AGEING JETs NOR LONG TERM GOAL OF BEING ABLE TO PUT A MINIMUM FIGHT AGAINST FIFTH GEN IN 2040-2050-2060. Now its 2023, both the short term and long term goals are now awkward. We are in no position to neither abandon Tejas nor redesign higher thrust AMCA nor single engine Stealth Jet.

What is this trash that I just read

 

[slayingheaven]

What is this trash that I just read

Just drug overdose

 

[WolfPack86]

Indian Defence News:- Russian fighters out From MRCA,Auto take off & landing sys for TEDBF

 

[MirageBlue]

Indian Defence News:- Russian fighters out From MRCA,Auto take off & landing sys for TEDBF

There is no source given for this info about the possible elimination of the Russian Su-35 and MiG-35 from MRFA.

Although, to be very frank, it is very sensible to do so. Having a huge multi-year, multi-billion 4.5 gen fighter assembly line from Russia would definitely invite sanctions and more importantly, the Russian defence industry is mostly held up with their own internal requirements as of now.

Even so, we don't see any new orders for the MiG-35 from the RuAF and the Su-35 lacks an AESA radar, which is a mandatory pre-requisite for the MRFA contenders.

The video also didn't mention the Typhoon, which is also good news. The last thing India should look to do is buy such an important fighter from countries like the UK and Germany. Simply too unreliable from a strategic POV.

 

[Johny_Baba]

F-15EX is a damn worthy jet but it's more leaning towards Su-30MKI and Su-35 in size and power et al than some "medium" category jet; better they limit it within Rafale and F/A-18E

and Gripen E inko kitni baar bole nahi lena hain

 

[BON PLAN]

France Hopes to Best US in New India Fighter Race, Betting on Existing Rafale Sales, Tech Flexibility

Today, Indian diplomats, security officials and analysts say it is less ‘arduous’ conducting materiel commerce with Paris than with Washington.

thewire.in

 

[BON PLAN]

F-15EX is a damn worthy jet but it's more leaning towards Su-30MKI and Su-35 in size and power et al than some "medium" category jet; better they limit it within Rafale and F/A-18E

and Gripen E inko kitni baar bole nahi lena hain

F15 = same league than Su30 = heavy. No need to have the two in the same fleet, specially when there is a huge upgrade on the agenda for Su30.
Rafale = medium fighter.
Gripen = light fighter = in competition with Tejas. No way.

So the 3 competitors are like Apple vs Orange vs Strawberry. All fruits, but nothing in common.

 

[MirageBlue]

The reason why the Eurofighter should NOT be considered seriously as part of the MRFA

German opposition to Saudi Eurofighter exports real problem - Airbus CEO

BERLIN, Oct 17 (Reuters) - Airbus (AIR.PA) Chief Executive Guillaume Faury hit out at the German government for its strict line on arms exports in a newspaper interview published on Tuesday, with Berlin blocking the delivery of Eurofighter combat aircraft to Saudi Arabia.

"The German government's stance on arms exports to some countries is a real problem," Faury told the business daily Handelsblatt.

"If Germany wants to be a trustworthy partner in major defence projects, it must resolve the issue of export controls with the other Europeans and not in spite of them," he said.

.....

Berlin halted arms sales to Saudi Arabia following the killing of Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi inside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul in 2018.

German Chancellor Olaf Scholz has so far pushed back against pressure to unblock delivery of the Eurofighter jets to Saudi Arabia. His coalition partner, the Greens, firmly opposes the move, pointing to human rights concerns and Saudi Arabia's role in the Yemen war.

Tomorrow those chumps could side with Canada and say the same thing about the dear departed terrorist Hardeep Singh Nijjar, being a Canadian citizen. Who knows what they'll come up with to say that Human Rights situation in India is bad and hence we won't be able to support MRFA or spares or whatever. The Germans are BEST AVOIDED for this reason.

 

[binayak95]

The reason why the Eurofighter should NOT be considered seriously as part of the MRFA

German opposition to Saudi Eurofighter exports real problem - Airbus CEO



Tomorrow those chumps could side with Canada and say the same thing about the dear departed terrorist Hardeep Singh Nijjar, being a Canadian citizen. Who knows what they'll come up with to say that Human Rights situation in India is bad and hence we won't be able to support MRFA or spares or whatever. The Germans are BEST AVOIDED for this reason.

This khichdi fighter with multiple cooks has never really worked. Look at the Eurocopter Tiger - terrible platform plagued with problems.

Same with the Typhoon.

Collaborative projects do work, but you need strict timelines, goals and a unified management.
Like the Jaguar or the Horizon class destroyers.

 

[MirageBlue]

This khichdi fighter with multiple cooks has never really worked. Look at the Eurocopter Tiger - terrible platform plagued with problems.

Same with the Typhoon.

Collaborative projects do work, but you need strict timelines, goals and a unified management.
Like the Jaguar or the Horizon class destroyers.

The basic airframe and engine have no issues. The problem lies more with the fact that being a multinational program, each country has it's own priorities and budget and timelines. That means there is never proper consensus on capability development or enhancement. Just look at what happened with the Tranche 1 Typhoons. Most are pretty obsolescent now with hardly any roadmap to upgrade them to T3 levels. Compare that to the Rafale F1s which were all upgraded to F3 standard. Same goes with their AESA radar which is a priority for 1 nation (UK) and not a priority for others (Germany, Spain and Italy) and consequently UK has to go alone with their own AESA radar and others are just now trialing a totally different AESA radar.

The latest Eurofighter variant with the AESA radar being supplied to Kuwait will be quite a capable fighter and a beast in close combat as well as BVR combat (where the high T/W ratio means it can accelerate to high speeds and launch a BVRAAM) but the issue will always be the extreme difficulty in keeping it free of the sanctions and politics of all the member countries.

Also for the IAF it doesn't add ANYTHING that the Rafale doesn't already offer. So makes 0 sense to go for it or waste time evaluating it, given we already have 36 Rafales, 2 air bases with Rafale infra and simulators, associated spares, weaponry, etc.

 

[prateikf]

The basic airframe and engine have no issues. The problem lies more with the fact that being a multinational program, each country has it's own priorities and budget and timelines. That means there is never proper consensus on capability development or enhancement. Just look at what happened with the Tranche 1 Typhoons. Most are pretty obsolescent now with hardly any roadmap to upgrade them to T3 levels. Compare that to the Rafale F1s which were all upgraded to F3 standard. Same goes with their AESA radar which is a priority for 1 nation (UK) and not a priority for others (Germany, Spain and Italy) and consequently UK has to go alone with their own AESA radar and others are just now trialing a totally different AESA radar.

The latest Eurofighter variant with the AESA radar being supplied to Kuwait will be quite a capable fighter and a beast in close combat as well as BVR combat (where the high T/W ratio means it can accelerate to high speeds and launch a BVRAAM) but the issue will always be the extreme difficulty in keeping it free of the sanctions and politics of all the member countries.

Also for the IAF it doesn't add ANYTHING that the Rafale doesn't already offer. So makes 0 sense to go for it or waste time evaluating it, given we already have 36 Rafales, 2 air bases with Rafale infra and simulators, associated spares, weaponry, etc.

Yes even the former CDS Bipin Rawat was of the opinion of adding Dassault Rafale in batches. Given the Navy’s deal to add 26 more jets adding another fighter to the IAF’s fleet makes little sense.

 

[abingdonboy]

Yes even the former CDS Bipin Rawat was of the opinion of adding Dassault Rafale in batches. Given the Navy’s deal to add 26 more jets adding another fighter to the IAF’s fleet makes little sense.

Rafale even being pursued for the MRCBF role (I have serious doubts it’ll ever be ordered) means MRFA is off, the IAF even seems to be waking up to this reality by pushing for more LCA MK1As as soon as in the next 18 months

 

[johnj]

Rafale even being pursued for the MRCBF role (I have serious doubts it’ll ever be ordered) means MRFA is off, the IAF even seems to be waking up to this reality by pushing for more LCA MK1As as soon as in the next 18 months

Only reality is, once HAL close fighter jet production line in 2029, it will take 2+ years to set up another one after CCS approval
Addition order is to keep these facilities alive, until mk2 gets CCS approval
And not related to MMRCA/MMRCA2/MRFA/......

Aircraft	Maximum thrust kN
LCA mk1	55/85
M2K	64.3/95.1
LCA mk2	58/98
LCA mk3	110
Rafale	100/150
EFT	120/180
Su30MKI	156/246

LCA mk2 meets minimum requirement to secure high altitude of northern sector.
best option are, 1. EFT followed by LCA mk3 and Rafale.
Requirement for high energy stage multirole fighter jet arise during kargil war, 24 years ago.

 

[BON PLAN]

the IAF even seems to be waking up to this reality by pushing for more LCA MK1As as soon as in the next 18 months

Tejas and Tejas mk2 are not competing in the same league than Rafale. They are not made for the same purpose.
And Tejas mk2 is for now only a mock up. It will takes at least 10 years to see the first operationnal one in a sqd. Not to speak of the rythm of the production.

 

[spacemarine2023]

Tejas and Tejas mk2 are not competing in the same league than Rafale. They are not made for the same purpose.
And Tejas mk2 is for now only a mock up. It will takes at least 10 years to see the first operationnal one in a sqd. Not to speak of the rythm of the production.

Tejas MK2 is in same league when it comes for Air defence for India, Rafale might get another 36 order only to keep France happy.
IAF is coming onboard with more financial and technical backing received by Indian PSU from private cos.
The future is loads and loads of Tejas MK1A and MK2 and in a decade AMCAs

 

[BON PLAN]

5.5 billions cleared for 26 Rafale (22 x M and 4 x B)

https://aninews.in/news/national/general-news/india-gives-letter-of-request-to-france-for-buying-26-rafale-m-fighter-jets-for-navy20231027220359/

 

[abingdonboy]

Only reality is, once HAL close fighter jet production line in 2029, it will take 2+ years to set up another one after CCS approval
Addition order is to keep these facilities alive, until mk2 gets CCS approval
And not related to MMRCA/MMRCA2/MRFA/......

Aircraft	Maximum thrust kN
LCA mk1	55/85
M2K	64.3/95.1
LCA mk2	58/98
LCA mk3	110
Rafale	100/150
EFT	120/180
Su30MKI	156/246

LCA mk2 meets minimum requirement to secure high altitude of northern sector.
best option are, 1. EFT followed by LCA mk3 and Rafale.
Requirement for high energy stage multirole fighter jet arise during kargil war, 24 years ago.

Keep deluding yourself and debating between these imaginary requirements

 

[abingdonboy]

Tejas MK2 is in same league when it comes for Air defence for India, Rafale might get another 36 order only to keep France happy.
IAF is coming onboard with more financial and technical backing received by Indian PSU from private cos.
The future is loads and loads of Tejas MK1A and MK2 and in a decade AMCAs

I didn’t say the LCAs were in the same class as Rafale but that’s not the objective is it? No one ever said MRFA is about finding a Rafale equivalent but meeting a nearly 25 year old requirement for ~100-200 MRCA/modern fighter bombers. Originally the IAF was pushing for >100 Mirage 2000s post Kargil 1999 but when production ended for that they launched MRCA which became MMRCA and the rest was history.

LCA MK.2 is hence nominally a suitable product and ticks most of the boxes in terms of self reliance, numbers, customisability etc etc

im sure the IAF would love their dream of 126-189+ Rafales to become a reality but that’s incomprehensible at this point.

I’m still pretty sure post 2024 elections in india there will be talk of an additional 2-3 SQNs of Rafales for the IAF but MRFA is utterly fantasy stuff

 

[johnj]

Keep deluding yourself and debating between these imaginary requirements

Are you in drugs/weed ???
Now who is deluding and debating between these imaginary requirements ?????