MMRCA 2.0: News & Discussions

[Poseidon]

PAF is adding Erieye after Erieye AEW&C but IAF is still not ordering more Netras. PAF will now have 10-12 AEW&C which means they have world's third largest AEW&C/AWACS fleet.

 

[wraith96]

We are still buying LCA radome from cobham...couldnt we had got the tech from rafale offset!!!

 

[fire starter]

We are still buying LCA radome from cobham...couldnt we had got the tech from rafale offset!!!

 

[vampyrbladez]

Okay so a quick economic lesson to IAF chief.
114 Fighter aircrafts that they want to purchase will cost as of now some 19 billion USD(airframes themselves cost 100 million USD plus and then there is training spares maintenance weapons package india specific upgrades and infrastructure development) and there is no way in hell can we sign a deal in next 4-5 years>Its just impossible,it took us 15-16 years to settle for Rafale after such requirement was asked for by the IAF.But even an optimistic side of me would suggest its the signing of the deal is still 5-7 years away and taking in account the inflation of 2.5% the deal becomes 22 Billion USD in 7 years.All of this will have to be paid in Forex and we being a trade deficit nation will have problem funding 20 Billion USD plus program.And this 20 billion USD figure is questionable,i assume a single aircraft to cost about 165-180 million USD while Rafale(2016) has costed us over 230 million USD per aircraft.So this new MMRCA 2.0 could cost well over 30 Billion USD.
Then we have the procurement.Are we going to produce or even assemble the aircrafts in india?If so then the cost will shoot up 50-100% making the already exorbitantly expensive deal a total back breaker for the Defence Budget.Then comes the life cycle cost which will again be very high.Making the deal roughly 45-60 Billion USD throughout the procurement cycle.

Lets talk timeline.We can kiss any big ticket purchase till 2024 none of that shit is happening.Next year the MOD budget will go dry absolutely.Tax revenues have hit rock bottom and there are other sectors that need financial attention.At best the deal will be signed around 2027 and the first jet will arrive in india by 2030.And in 2030 that jet wont carry india specific upgrades and such upgrades wont be implemented for another 4-5 years(i am taking the present rafale deal for reference).And all of this is an optimistic scenario.This could very well see delays of 3-5 years.
And keep in mind we will be procuring a jet with 2020 era tech in 2035 for an extremely high price(anywhere between 22-60 billion USD).I dont think thats worth it.

The only solution to this problem is HAL Tejas and its variant and Super Sukhoi upgrade.Order 3 more squadrons of Tejas mk1/mk1a to take the total number of aircrafts to 180 jets,this can be done within 2030s no rocket science hopefully.Another 15 squadrons of Mk2 MWF that will come around 2030 and procurement will go well into 2030s and Start upgrading Su-30.If we sign the deal to upgrade it around 2025 and start upgrading it around 2030(realistic timeline) the upgrade cycle will continue in 2030s and the aircraft will be able to serve till early 2050s.ORCA,Lets where it goes,but i am sure that it wont see FOC induction a day before 2035.So maybe it has a place in Air force maybe it doesnt.AMCA is still 20 years away so no point fretting about that.
For the people who think Tejas is too shortlegged or too underarmed,provided a dual ejector rack(which is under development) Tejas mk1/mk1a will be able to carry 4 BVR AAM and 2 CCM with 1 Towed EW POD and 1 centreline fuel tank and still have 2 stations empty for fuel or whatever have you.
Purchase more AWACS and MARS systems.We need 2 dozen of both systems.

If all of this is done we might get 42 squadrons by 2040 provided none of the aircrafts mentioned above crash.

Side noteMirage 2000,Mig-29 and Jaguar will serve well into 2030s but will see retirement in late 2030s because most of them were procured in 1980s and given IAFs tradition to fly aircrafts until they dont bite the dust,i am pretty sure.

This is the only viable and economic solution to our squadron number problem.

This shows you have very little knowledge of aircraft platforms unfortunately.

Tejas MK2/MWF = Gripen E/F

Rafale =/= Tejas MK2/MWF or ORCA

ORCA is just a conceptual idea.

IAF's modernization plan is as follows:

Old--->New

Mig 29UPG--->Rafale (Twin Engine MRCA)

Mirage 2000H--->Tejas MK2/MWF (Single Engine MRCA)

Mig 21BiS--->Tejas MK1A

Su 30MKI--->Super Sukhoi (N036 Radar to replace N011 BARS, Cutting edge AESA EW suit, Su 35 style cockpit)

X--->Su 57 (Item 30 Engine, N036 Radar, 270° AESA Radar coverage)

X--->AMCA (Stealth fighter)

Cheaper stuff like Tejas LCA MK1A will be bought first and then subsequent orders as shown above.

 

[aditya10r]

Cheaper stuff like Tejas LCA MK1A will be bought first and then subsequent orders as shown above.

Imports are out of question.
We dont have money and wont have for quite some time.At least 5-7 years.
Plus In 9-10 years of time MWF will be ready negating the need for any imported jet.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Imports are out of question.
We dont have money and wont have for quite some time.At least 5-7 years.
Plus In 9-10 years of time MWF will be ready negating the need for any imported jet.

My friend, I must reiterate that Tejas MK2 / MWF is NOT a twin engine MMRCA. It is a doppelganger of the Gripen E/F. This makes it a potential replacement for the Mirage 2000H by requirement.

To replace the MiG 29 UPG which is a twin engine aircraft, you will need a twin engine MMRCA aka the Rafale.

India also spent lots of money to customize it as per our needs. Thus a future batch of 36 Rafales will cost $6 Bn instead of $7.7 Bn like the first tranche.

 

[no smoking]

You can laugh all you want, but there is more to it than mere specifications. @Bajirao overstates a bit ofcourse, however while the Mig-21s climbed up from behind Pir Panjal, the Sukhoi-30 were at higher altitude. Meaning F-16s were against topography to its radar.

Honey, you made this claim because you have zero understanding of your own country's operation. Mig-21 is an interceptor with pathetic range. So, IAF puts Mig-21 on the taking off line in the airport for emergency mission while Su-30 is doing the CAP in the sky because of its long range. At the time when Pakistan's jets were entering the Indian sky, there was at least one Su-30 roaming around that area. Those Pakistan's jets can only be detected by either ground radar, AWACS or Su-30 in the sky. Mig-21s would only take off when they received the order and they would only be able to get close to F-16s enough for their own radar to work (<57km) under the guidance of ground radar or AWACS. However, don't forget the Su-30 in the sky, which is the jet that can get to the target area within the shortest time (Mig-21 need to start the engine, warm up, taking off, accelerating, climbing up), and it won't need get into 60km distance but 140km.

Russian radars have a bad reputation for not being able to differentiate target from clutter.

Guess what: the radar on the Mig-21 bison is Kopyo multimode radar, a RUSSIAN RADAR, which is far inferior to N110M (Su-30s) according to Russian manufacturer.

It's not possible to ascertain the accuracy of it, but multiple places have mentioned failure to identify the F-16s until the AMRAAMs were launched.

Kid, any modern radar can't tell the difference between the radar signal of F-16 and JF-17 by itself. The radar on the fighter jet can only detect the signal, not even know it is enemy or friend. With support of AWACS or ground command centre, it can know which is Pakistan's jet and which is India's own jet. Then, with further information analysis (sill done by AWACS or command center), such as taking off airport, speed, size, they may be able to tell what kind of jet it is.

 

[itsme]

Honey, you made this claim because you have zero understanding of your own country's operation. Mig-21 is an interceptor with pathetic range. So, IAF puts Mig-21 on the taking off line in the airport for emergency mission while Su-30 is doing the CAP in the sky because of its long range. At the time when Pakistan's jets were entering the Indian sky, there was at least one Su-30 roaming around that area. Those Pakistan's jets can only be detected by either ground radar, AWACS or Su-30 in the sky. Mig-21s would only take off when they received the order and they would only be able to get close to F-16s enough for their own radar to work (<57km) under the guidance of ground radar or AWACS. However, don't forget the Su-30 in the sky, which is the jet that can get to the target area within the shortest time (Mig-21 need to start the engine, warm up, taking off, accelerating, climbing up), and it won't need get into 60km distance but 140km.



Guess what: the radar on the Mig-21 bison is Kopyo multimode radar, a RUSSIAN RADAR, which is far inferior to N110M (Su-30s) according to Russian manufacturer.



Kid, any modern radar can't tell the difference between the radar signal of F-16 and JF-17 by itself. The radar on the fighter jet can only detect the signal, not even know it is enemy or friend. With support of AWACS or ground command centre, it can know which is Pakistan's jet and which is India's own jet. Then, with further information analysis (sill done by AWACS or command center), such as taking off airport, speed, size, they may be able to tell what kind of jet it is.

Just about the bolded part. They dint enter Indian skies. What they did is a technical violation where they entered the no fly zone on their side which is 10kms from the LOC. Both the sides had an agreement were no jets will come 10km to the LOC. That day PAF broke that agreement and fired AMRAAMS at our SU30s.

 

[aditya10r]

My friend, I must reiterate that Tejas MK2 / MWF is NOT a twin engine MMRCA. It is a doppelganger of the Gripen E/F. This makes it a potential replacement for the Mirage 2000H by requirement.

To replace the MiG 29 UPG which is a twin engine aircraft, you will need a twin engine MMRCA aka the Rafale.

India also spent lots of money to customize it as per our needs. Thus a future batch of 36 Rafales will cost $6 Bn instead of $7.7 Bn like the first tranche.

MWF will have enough payload and thrust to make up for one less engine.So MWF is the perfect replacement for Mog-29 UPG.And MWF will bring almost everything the rafale brings to the airforce.IRST,Integrated EW,Good payload(6 tonnes) and adequate range and on top of low turn around times and low maintenance and Higher sortie generation rate.
Rafale as of today will cost you 160+ million USD and no such deal will be signed in next 5-6 years and by then the price will jump by another 10-20%.And we will have to invest in infrastructure upgrades.We can currently house only 2 squadrons so we will have factor that too.

Plus replacing a dirt cheap fighter with an UBER expensive fighter makes no sense.Such amount of money is better spent elsewhere.And the first tranche costed us 8.4 Billion USD not 7.7 BIllion USD.
Last thing Air force needs is more imports.Let these 36 rafales be the last imported fighter jet.

_________________________________________________

 

[vampyrbladez]

MWF will have enough payload and thrust to make up for one less engine.So MWF is the perfect replacement for Mog-29 UPG.And MWF will bring almost everything the rafale brings to the airforce.IRST,Integrated EW,Good payload(6 tonnes) and adequate range and on top of low turn around times and low maintenance and Higher sortie generation rate.
Rafale as of today will cost you 160+ million USD and no such deal will be signed in next 5-6 years and by then the price will jump by another 10-20%.And we will have to invest in infrastructure upgrades.We can currently house only 2 squadrons so we will have factor that too.

Plus replacing a dirt cheap fighter with an UBER expensive fighter makes no sense.Such amount of money is better spent elsewhere.And the first tranche costed us 8.4 Billion USD not 7.7 BIllion USD.
Last thing Air force needs is more imports.Let these 36 rafales be the last imported fighter jet.

_________________________________________________

Mig 29UPG ---> Rafale

Mirage 2000H ---> MWF

There is a DRAL factory in Nagpur. Rafales could be made there using knockdown kits.

 

[aditya10r]

There is a DRAL factory in Nagpur. Rafales could be made there using knockdown kits.

And price will escalate further.

 

[vampyrbladez]

And price will escalate further.

The DRAL factory makes FALCON transport jets. It is also making parts of the Rafale fighter aircraft in India.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thepri...for-rafale-fighter-jets-in-nagpur/363702/?amp

 

[aditya10r]

The DRAL factory makes FALCON transport jets. It is also making parts of the Rafale fighter aircraft in India.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theprint.in/defence/india-begins-manufacturing-parts-for-rafale-fighter-jets-in-nagpur/363702/?amp

Both are different things.
Despite HAL making quite a lot of things for Su-30mki(which has a much bigger order) still ends up costing more here than it will cost directly purchasing from russia.

 

[IndianHawk]

Mig 29UPG ---> Rafale

Mirage 2000H ---> MWF

There is a DRAL factory in Nagpur. Rafales could be made there using knockdown kits.

Mig29 or mig35 are not comparable to rafale. They are in mwf class range and payload wise.
Mwf will replace mig29 upg. Mwf payload is 6500kg compared to 5500 kg for mig35/ 29upg.
Range is also similar.

 

[IndianHawk]

At the time when Pakistan's jets were entering the Indian sky,

Utter lies . According to Pakistan itself they never crossed loc anytime they didn't had the guts of capabilities.

The only airforce which crossed loc on both days and flew over enemy airspace was IAF and only IAF.
On26th mirage and su30 were 80km inside Pakistan
And on 27 mig21 was chasing f16 inside Pakistan.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Mig29 or mig35 are not comparable to rafale. They are in mwf class range and payload wise.
Mwf will replace mig29 upg. Mwf payload is 6500kg compared to 5500 kg for mig35/ 29upg.
Range is also similar.

We have to compare the thrust and engine class as well.


Current Inventory :

2 engine MRCA - Mig 29UPG

1 engine MRCA - Mirage 2000H


Future Inventory :

2 engine MRCA - Rafale

1 engine MRCA - MWF

 

[Assassin 2.0]

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We are targeting a bit of saving in the revenue side and re-prioritising capital spending as well, said RKS Bhadauria replying to a question on managing budget constraints.
The focus on Make in India and its big acquisition programmes will give a boost to indigenous industry in this hour of need, says Air Chief Marshal Rakesh Kumar Singh Bhadauria. He says even programmes with foreign content, like the acquisition of 114 medium combat jets, will evolve to maximise technology transfer and localisation. Excerpts of an interview with Manu Pubby
On defence production reforms and FDI limit increase:
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Overall the steps will have a serious impact on our ability to energize Make in India. The aviation sector is capital and technology intensive and will get a lot of boost from the steps. The increase in FDI limit should be seen along with the fact that MSMEs are being supported. The 49% cap did not have the kind of impact desired but this (the new 74% limit) will create a big impact. The challenge, I see, is for DPSUs to integrate with the private sector. The whole of industry has to work together.
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The order for 83 LCA Mk1A is a very big priority for us. It will naturally fit into the new regime and despite the issue of budgets, it is something we would want to go ahead with and, I am sure, it will get finalised soon. It will help HAL, the MSMEs as well as the private sector. Our focus is on this order for many reasons—the first 40 LCAs on order are more or less through and we need to have the order for continuity. We need to take the LCA programme to its max potential and for that we are already launching the Mk II programme as well.
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The 114 project is work in process but there would be a substantial shift towards moving the entire manufacturing to India. This will be totally under Make in India and we need to address issues so that an entire transfer of technology takes places. The manufacturing capacity of this class of aircraft has to be brought into our industry. Capability wise, this is a very important project for the air force. We will follow it up after the LCA order.
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The C 295 (transport plane programme with Tata-Airbus) is at the final stages. It is under process in the acquisition wing of the ministry of defence. In the transport stream, it is again an important Make in India project and from the industry perspective, it will bring in manufacturing capability in this segment.
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We are targeting a bit of saving in the revenue side and re-prioritising capital spending as well. This year, a lot of training (and foreign exercises) have been put off and that will help save something.
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On Rafale delivery and other fighter purchases:
There has been an impact on the Rafale production as well as on the training side. We expect the first batch to come by end of July and in terms of production, there would be some impact but as we go along, it will get mitigated.
The Su 30 MKI upgrade programme is also being processed as HAL will soon be out of work at its production facilities. Along with that, the MiG 29 project (purchase of 21 aircraft from Russia) is also on.




(BAD DAYS FOR PAF AHEAD )

 

[IndianHawk]

We have to compare the thrust and engine class as well.


Current Inventory :

2 engine MRCA - Mig 29UPG

1 engine MRCA - Mirage 2000H


Future Inventory :

2 engine MRCA - Rafale

1 engine MRCA - MWF

Nope that's not how it works . Even today mirage and mig29 are considered in same class.

Mirage has better range and payload while mig29 has better twr and is much more agile.

But both are considered in same class . Mwf will replace both of them.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Nope that's not how it works . Even today mirage and mig29 are considered in same class.

Mirage has better range and payload while mig29 has better twr and is much more agile.

But both are considered in same class . Mwf will replace both of them.

MWF is single engined. That alone greatly limits it's utility as a true multirole platform for strike purposes in a contested environment. (Unless you have stealth like the F 35.)

You need more range and payload along with greater reliability. That requires two engines.

 

[IndianHawk]

MWF is single engined. That alone greatly limits it's utility as a true multirole platform for strike purposes in a contested environment. (Unless you have stealth like the F 35.)

You need more range and payload along with greater reliability. That requires two engines.

Mwf will have almost same range as rafale.

Mwf will carry 3300kg fuel internally for single f414.
While rafale caries 4500kg internally for two m88 .
( 2200kg for each m88 to burn).

Adjusted for other factors both should have same range. Rafale has more payload than mwf but most strike mission carry one or two bombs ( lgb ) and 4-6 aam. Mwf can easily carry them and much more with drop tanks too.