MMRCA 2.0: News & Discussions

[Sridhar_TN]

Astra mk1 itself outranges paki f16 aim120c5/c7. And it's already integrated with su30 . So game has already changed.

Astra mk2 dusl pulse is supposed to undergo testing this year itself. It will use same dual motor already used on ngram. Should be ready in 2 years.

Lca mk1a will get derby ER directly as it is already mated with elta 2052 aesa radar . So lca mk1a should come with derby ER as standard weapon.

Su30 could also see derby ER integrated if Astra mk2 is delayed.

Cross our fingers and hope it all works out

 

[IndianHawk]

You could be very right there. But we still need meaningful carriers though

Third carrier is not being debated. It's size being questioned. Navy wants 65k ton behemoth with emals and rafale/f18 as airwing .

Defmin is pushing for 40k vikrant sister ship with catobar and modest airwing probably with tedbf .

 

[WARREN SS]

You could be very right there. But we still need meaningful carriers though

You Ask me I Will Say this Simply No What We Need Is s nuclear SSN along 7-8 With AIP subs

Because Of the Natural Advantage We have In our Arsenal To Choke PLAAN At Malaca Straight

 

[nrj]

You Ask me I Will Say this Simply No What We Need Is s nuclear SSN along 7-8 With AIP subs

Because Of the Natural Advantage We have In our Arsenal To Choke PLAAN At Malaca Straight

Can someone move this to relevant thread ?

But both serve different purposes right ? SSN and Carriers can coexist. We need not just patrolling but assertion on high seas, especially in rest of the Indian ocean.

 

[WARREN SS]

Can someone move this to relevant thread ?

But both serve different purposes right ? SSN and Carriers can coexist. We need not just patrolling but assertion on high seas, especially in rest of the Indian ocean.

IN is Relatively Slow on real Threat Anticipation which are Nuclear SSN are AIP subs of PLAAN Not Substandard carrier Groups which are build to cheaply mock of USN CBG's

Navy has to keep in Mind our pockets and Real requirement not Power projection

S-5 Class SSBN's Can Our Biggest Power projection than Any carrier group for India

2 CBG that is 20-25 billion $ Stretch of Navy's Gross Budget (including Aircrafts)
in 2020-30 + add 15 Billion $ For IAC-3
So Scope for 3rd AC cannot Exist Until budget crosses for 50-70 billion $ for Indian Navy alone
Because We need Funding For our Arihants,SSN,And Project75I +,And S-5 class SSBN's

T Only possibility in Next decade Till then We might Get AMCA Naval Variant ready

 

[nrj]

IN is Relatively Slow on real Threat Anticipation which are Nuclear SSN are AIP subs of PLAAN Not Substandard carrier Groups which are build to cheaply mock of USN CBG's

Navy has to keep in Mind our pockets and Real requirement not Power projection

S-5 Class SSBN's Can Our Biggest Power projection than Any carrier group for India

SSBNs for power projection ? Maybe, maybe not. Its a perceptive topic.

2 CBG that is 20-25 billion $ Stretch of Navy's Gross Budget (including Aircrafts)
in 2020-30 + add 15 Billion $ For IAC-3
So Scope for 3rd AC cannot Exist Until budget crosses for 50-70 billion $ for Indian Navy alone
Because We need Funding For our Arihants,SSN,And Project75I +,And S-5 class SSBN's

Considering speed at which these projects move, 3rd carrier is not required for next decade but later ones.

Till then We might Get AMCA Naval Variant ready

I do like good jokes on weekends

 

[WARREN SS]

SSBNs for power projection ? Maybe, maybe not. Its a perceptive topic.

SSBN's True Power Projections

UK With Vanguard class USN With its Ohio ,Russian With Its Typhoon & Borei class ,French With Triomphant class or PLAN With Jin-clas

Arihant Is not SSBN We need To add K-6 Platform With S-5 that Will real deterrent

 

[WARREN SS]

Considering speed at which these projects move, 3rd carrier is not required for next decade but later ones.

Well we Can hope

 

[WolfPack86]

Tejas to beat Rafale, F-21? IAF switching to LCA, says Bipin Rawat
The Indian Air Force’s long-delayed plan to buy over 100 foreign-designed fighters has made little progress in the past two decades. The latest iteration of the plan came in April 2018, when the Indian Air Force formally launched a process to buy 114 fighters in a deal estimated to be worth around $15 billion.

The Indian Air Force was also simultaneously negotiating with HAL to buy 83 units of the indigenously designed Tejas fighter at an estimated cost of $6 billion. The Indian Air Force had already ordered 40 Tejas jets from HAL.

On Thursday, Chief of Defence Staff General Bipin Rawat indicated that the Indian Air Force was “switching” to the Tejas in place of foreign options.


In an interview to Bloomberg, Rawat said, “The Indian Air Force is switching that [order for foreign fighters] to the LCA. The IAF is saying, I would rather take the indigenous fighter, it is good.”

Rawat argued that the induction of additional Tejas fighters will help India emerge as a key exporter of defence equipment, citing the “relatively low price” of the jets.

Rawat described the proposed move to buying indigenous Tejas fighters as a “shift to start using locally made weaponry”.

Defencenews.in

 

[Bajirao]

Pakjabi mirpuri have been successfully able to spread in UK like cockroach + anti india Bangladeshi to are a headache + labour party believes that kashmir is unfinished business of partition hence it also involves UK in it.
In previous UNSC meet on kashmir indian ex ambassador said Dominic raab was dubious and in some way supported Pakistan.
First UK should stop interference in our internal issues then only we should move ahead with any type of defence cooperation.

We need nobody for technolege....if not 100 percent,atleast 99 percent we can devolop by our own, for the rest 1 percent there are isreal,russia,france for some help but that's it nothing more.....nobody will share even 1 percent tech. after signing mmrca.all the talks of tech. transfer are just some business trick even for engine tech. we have to do by our own...my opinion is either devolop our own weapon and produce or, directly import for short term purpose...producing su-30 in india we have gained almost nothing and have done a lose of 100 cr. per jet.100 cr. to give some job to hal.it is more ridiculous sceme than hole digging mnrega sceme..

 

[Akula]

Minimum 110 Rafale with 11 aircraft bought per year or 2 more tranches of 36 Rafale(s) will be bought (36 + 36 + 36) .

(36+36+36) procedure should have been adopted earlier. We wasted so many years.

 

[Akula]

You could be very right there. But we still need meaningful carriers though

In my opinion IAC-3 as another Vikrant class carrier is a better option.

 

[piKacHHu]

SSBN's True Power Projections

UK With Vanguard class USN With its Ohio ,Russian With Its Typhoon & Borei class ,French With Triomphant class or PLAN With Jin-clas

Arihant Is not SSBN We need To add K-6 Platform With S-5 that Will real deterrent

The term Power Projection usually revolves around CBGs (as we were hear in news quite often). The USN plays this game often by deploying it in Persian gulf or Pacific just to let its enemies know that they are ready for conventional strikes against any transgression from other side.
SSBNs are also an element of Power Projection; but it 's used quite less than the CBGs nowadays. SSBN's punitive strike options are limited and too deadly (Conventional or Nuclear tipped ICBMs) which could trigger a large scale conflict. Power projection through SSBNs are relic of Cold war era when regular deployment of SSBN+SSNs on North pole by Soviets & The US were quite frequent. Announcing SSBNs patrols for intimidation is also counter productive; strength of SSBNs lies in its stealth to remain undetectable for longer period of time.
Whereas CBGs can patrol, do CAPs, Area Domination with its aircraft/anti submarine frigates, could do precision strike with cruise missiles/aircraft and many more. For today's perspective, that's become more relevant when all the major powers are toying with their regional proxies (who aren't nuclear armed) and pitting them against each other. Moreover, It's precisely the reason why China has accelerated its Carrier program in a big way for achieving influence beyond South China sea.

Astra mk1 itself outranges paki f16 aim120c5/c7. And it's already integrated with su30 . So game has already changed.

Any Reference? AFAIK, it's at par with R-77; and AMRAAMS are better as compared to R-77 in range aspect.

I understand that. Which is why I’m saying from the start. Don’t kill it. Allocate funds for it outside the defense budget. How? I don’t know. We can’t afford to kill it at all.

If it comes down to choosing between rafales or the entire tejas program, go for the tejas to save it.

Else, try all possible means to get the rafales. For the time being. We need that capability. Very much so.

36 Rafale are too little a fleet to achieve anything considering Two Front War doctrine pursued by our armed forces; Without additional orders, the money allocated for Indian Specific Changes would be totally wasted and that money gone for tech development would upgrade Rafale being exported to other countries.
IMO, India has no choice but to order 36 more Rafales to cater our immediate strategic requirements. It's to be seen how deftly the Govt plays the face saving game by cancelling MMRCA 2.0 (which was pitched as flag bearer of Make in India project in Defence) & order off-the-shelf Rafales

 

[Bleh]

Su30 lacks maws but that is more important for low flying jets and helicopters . Our helicopters have maws . Maws for su30 is coming too. But that's mostly useful against sam at low altitude. Su30 flies at high altitude for aur superiority.

It is not about altitude.
MAWS works best within distances of less than 3 km, decently at 5-7km. So a low slow helicopter will need it more.

Theoretically at that range a dogfighting enemy aircraft is going to go for the inexorable cannon fire... but practically it gives the last minute warning to the jet to deploy flares in case of a passive IR homing missile is chasing from 10 km away.

I dont know why he said this though. I've rechecked, it does pick up AAMs (no need for radar-guided ones though in jet with RWR).

Edit: Ok I got it. Technical limitations. But those may be overcome with future tech development.

 

[Bhurki]

It is not about altitude.
MAWS works best within distances of less than 3 km, decently at 5-7km. So a low slow helicopter will need it more.

Theoretically at that range a dogfighting enemy aircraft is going to go for the inexorable cannon fire... but practically it gives the last minute warning to the jet to deploy flares in case of a passive IR homing missile is chasing from 10 km away.

I dont know why he said this though. I've rechecked, it does pick up AAMs (no need for radar-guided ones though in jet with RWR).

Edit: Ok I got it. Technical limitations. But those may be overcome with future tech development.

Probably best maws other than F35 DAS,
EPAWSS for F15e

Eagle Passive Active Warning Survivability System [EPAWSS]

www.globalsecurity.org

 

[IndianHawk]

Any Reference? AFAIK, it's at par with R-77; and AMRAAMS are better as compared to R-77 in range aspect.

Astra mk1 range is 110+ km as advertised. It has hit targets at 90km range in already declassified test.

Actual range could be much better.

Someone from IAF has said it's far better than aim120c5/c7 . I don't recall who that was but it should be somewhere on this forum.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Any Reference? AFAIK, it's at par with R-77; and AMRAAMS are better as compared to R-77 in range aspect.

On the first anniversary of the Balakot airstrikes, on Wednesday, Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria speaking to NDTV confirmed that the indigenously developed Astra Mk1 beyond visual range air to air missile (BVRAAM) which has been cleared for production matches in range and performance when compared to the AIM-120C-5 BVRAAMs of the PAF. Astra has a range of 110km against bigger targets in the head of chase and has a range of 75 against maneuverable targets like fighter jets which makes it fall in the same category as AIM-120C-5 BVRAAMs acquired by PAF for its F-16 fleet. Bhadauria also confirmed that the Astra integration priority has been given to the entire Su-30MKI fleet after successful demonstration of the missile in real-world configuration against all possible scenarios including the day after Balakot airstrikes as per sources close to idrw.org.

idrw.org .Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website https://idrw.org/astra-mk1-matches-aim-120c-5-in-range-and-performance-iaf-chief/ .

 

[Bleh]

Astra mk1 range is 110+ km as advertised. It has hit targets at 90km range in already declassified test.

Actual range could be much better.

Someone from IAF has said it's far better than aim120c5/c7 . I don't recall who that was but it should be somewhere on this forum.

BRF source, can't find it now, but i 'member too.

 

[IndianHawk]

Mmrca is dead for all intent and purpose.
More rafale will be ordered directly as per requirement in the future.

Rest will be made up by mk1a and mwf.

So this thread has run out of utility now. Time to shut it down. Other discussion can happen on mwf and rafale thread.

 

[Bleh]

Nothing sates thirst like the warms salty tears of dalals (except sugarcane juice, and lassi, and thumsup, and... eh fuck it).


Say Goodbye To India’s Super F-16
David AxeContributor
Aerospace & Defense
May 16, 2020 | 03:46pm

Our chances of getting a new kind of F-16 just dramatically shrank. The Indian air force recently signaled it would cancel a tender for foreign-made warplanes.

It was that contest that motivated American plane-maker Lockheed Martin LMT to develop a unique, highly-advanced F-16 variant the company called the “F-21.”
The Indian air force in 2019 announced it would spend up to $15 billion buying 114 fighters. The plan was for the new planes to replace old MiG-21s and fly alongside European-designed Jaguars, French Mirage 2000s and Rafales, Russian MiG-29s and Su-30s and India's own indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft in what Lockheed described as "the world’s largest fighter aircraft ecosystem."

The F-21, Boeing BA's F/A-18E/F, the Rafale, the European Typhoon, the Swedish Gripen E and the Russian MiG-35 and Su-35 all were contenders. Indian companies would have assembled the new jets on license.
No longer. “The Indian Air Force is switching that to the LCA,” Chief of the Defense Staff Bipin Rawat said in an interview. The air force would order 83 additional Tejas on top of the 40 LCAs the service already has paid for.

Those 83 LCAs would cost $6 billion. That’s less than half what New Delhi planned to spend under the previous tender, implying that cost motivated the decision.
“The IAF is saying, I would rather take the indigenous fighter, it is good,” Rawat said.

The Indian air force in 2020 maintains just 28 fighter squadrons against a requirement for 42 squadrons. The service hopes to stand up three new units in 2020 as additional Rafales, Su-30s and LCAs arrive.
Hindustan Aeronautics’ Tejas, which first flew in 2001, is far less sophisticated than the F-21 would have been. The delta-wing, lightweight LCA can carry around 8,000 pounds of ordnance—half what an Indian Su-30MKI can haul. The Tejas also is slower and less maneuverable than India’s other foreign-made fighters are.

The F-21, by contrast, would have included technology from the company’s F-22 and F-35 stealth fighters. "The F-21 has common components and learning from Lockheed Martin’s fifth-generation F-22 and F-35 and will share a common supply chain on a variety of components," Lockheed stated on its website on the morning of Feb. 20, 2019.

A few hours later, that claim disappeared from the site. In any event, the F-21 would have been the most advanced version yet of the single-engine F-16, which flew for the first time in 1974.

The F-21 design boasted new cockpit displays, conformal fuel tanks, a large airframe spine that could accommodate communication systems or radar-jammers, fittings for towed radar decoys, a new infrared sensor and a refueling probe for use with India's Russian-made aerial tankers.
Production of the F-21 would have extended one of the world’s most successful fighter programs.
Around 2,300 of F-16s fly for more than 30 air arms, accounting for no less than four percent of all the world’s military aircraft. But even without an Indian order, Lockheed anticipates it could continue building new F-16s through 2030.