MMRCA 2.0: News & Discussions

[Sridhar_TN]

We cannot match Chinese in defence spending not in speed of building infrastructure.
So what we should do then? Push all of our resources on the edge and punch above our weight to import stuff this lust for arms will cost country dearly we are already spending more 20% of our national budget on defence equipment i think it's not the time to burden ourselves more with loans and ultra expensive imports of foreign defence equipments.
Arms race against much powerful enemy is always going to cost weaker more.

What india should do?
Well diplomatically saying it would be a big failure of indian diplomacy if we ever face a 2 front war scenario. Heck Chinese didn't did anything in 1971 war in 1999 war.
Today i believe we should find cheaper deterrent to counter Chinese threat maybe big number of conventional missiles which can target mainland China or more SSBN.
as long as we have a successful deterrent i don't think Chinese will take military action with Pakistan.

Punching above our weight class would be going for more tejas. That’s the definition of punching above our weight class. Expecting the tejas to perform roles it cannot perform is punching above our weight class.

The reason to go for rafales is an acceptance that we are not capable of matching the Chinese; and need foreign imports to have a chance to defend ourselves. To level the playing field. Purchasing rafales is not an arms race. Purchasing rafales is a guarantee that if war comes around for the next 2 to 3 decades, we are prepared. And that 2 to 3 decades is when you fund all the fighter programs you want.

If any one here is still talking about diplomacy, awacs and other resources to mitigate the absence of a highly capable fighter/bomber...we are just fooling ourselves. Fucks sake, we used the mirage 2000 as our best platform for balakot. THAT was our best platform,. That was the iAf chiefs words.

And by the way things are going...even the CDS does not want more rafales. I say ok, we are not being pragmatic is all I’m saying. There is a time and place for investment., and r&d. Now is not the time. The Chinese are building up the entire theater for a short high intensity war. Every shortcoming we have is going to burn our asses at that time.

 

[IndianHawk]

Punching above our weight class would be going for more tejas. That’s the definition of punching above our weight class. Expecting the tejas to perform roles it cannot perform is punching above our weight class.

The reason to go for rafales is an acceptance that we are not capable of matching the Chinese; and need foreign imports to have a chance to defend ourselves. To level the playing field. Purchasing rafales is not an arms race. Purchasing rafales is a guarantee that if war comes around for the next 2 to 3 decades, we are prepared. And that 2 to 3 decades is when you fund all the fighter programs you want.

If any one here is still talking about diplomacy, awacs and other resources to mitigate the absence of a highly capable fighter/bomber...we are just fooling ourselves. Fucks sake, we used the mirage 2000 as our best platform for balakot. THAT was our best platform,. That was the iAf chiefs words.

And by the way things are going...even the CDS does not want more rafales. I say ok, we are not being pragmatic is all I’m saying. There is a time and place for investment., and r&d. Now is not the time. The Chinese are building up the entire theater for a short high intensity war. Every shortcoming we have is going to burn our asses at that time.

We had over 250 mig21 in service. 12 squadrons.
So Tejas should ideally be in equal numbers to mig21.
Chinese themselves are importing su35 ! So by that logic chinese domestic production is not of good quality.

Mirage was best platform for deep strike. Yes it is the only one integrated with spice and Crystal mage. Su30 was providing escort . That just proves jaguar is not very reliable as deep strike should have been jaguars job.

Chinese are outnumbered and outclassed on their eastern front against japan and USA. And what to they rely upon against f22/f35 /f15s ?

Russian su35!! That's how good Chinese jets are.

 

[Bleh]

We had over 250 mig21 in service. 12 squadrons.
So Tejas should ideally be in equal numbers to mig21.
Chinese themselves are importing su35 ! So by that logic chinese domestic production is not of good quality.

Mirage was best platform for deep strike. Yes it is the only one integrated with spice and Crystal mage. Su30 was providing escort . That just proves jaguar is not very reliable as deep strike should have been jaguars job.

Chinese are outnumbered and outclassed on their eastern front against japan and USA. And what to they rely upon against f22/f35 /f15s ?

Russian su35!! That's how good Chinese jets are.

To be fair, they only have 1 squadron of 24 Su-35 only, probably to steal tech & reverse engineer based on that.

And another squadron of FOC Tejas before 2022 would be good, but no more than 150. It can fill in the roles of Mig-21 & Jaguar, but if any more it may become a handicap of capability for IAF.

 

[IndianHawk]

To be fair, they only have 1 squadron of 24 Su-35 only, probably to steal tech & reverse engineer based on that.

And another squadron of FOC Tejas before 2022 would be good, but no more than 150. It can fill in the roles of Mig-21 & Jaguar, but if any more it may become a handicap of capability for IAF.

Most of Chinese fighter fleet is still Russian copies. J11/j16 are su30 clones. J10 is their design which keeps crashing because of single al31 engine .

J15 was copy of su33 which Russian didn't help with so it's a disastrous failure with 20% fleet crashed already.

They hype about j20 but if j20 was anygood they would never have imported su35.

We have enough su30 and answer to j10 is mwf which will be far more reliable with f414.

Amca too will start flying in middle of next decade. We are doing fine. That's my point.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

To be fair, they only have 1 squadron of 24 Su-35 only, probably to steal tech & reverse engineer based on that.

And another squadron of FOC Tejas before 2022 would be good, but no more than 150. It can fill in the roles of Mig-21 & Jaguar, but if any more it may become a handicap of capability for IAF.

By all means let the tejas fill in the roles of mig21s. Ideally you would want tejas mk2 to do that, but hey. We are the kings of concessions and sacrifices so let’s do that.

Sukhois at this point are our only mainstay defense aircraft. Albeit with bad ew systems, no encrypted radios etc etc. Along with 50 odd mirages which would Mostly be used for precision strikes for obvious reasons.

For whatever reason we upgraded Jaguars with AESA radars.why? I don’t know. I’m not an expert so I will not comment. It’s never going to see that kind of action or combat, unless it’s used for high res sar mapping. Which the sukhois can do.

Mig 29’s supposedly are upgraded to a good extent with ew systems. Maybe that’s the only hope we have right now of a decent ‘capable’ fighter.

 

[nrj]

Sir ji have you forgotten caatsa restrictions..? Or have you forgotten that there USCIRF words about our home minister, ? You are right about inspection aspect. There are a lot of us contractor roaming around naval/air bases. They have pretty good leverage over India now to blackmail us a little bit. But the problem is that USA will never give us engine tech. They withdraw from dtti for this reason. I think french/UK are our best shot regarding engine tot . I would vote for UK.

They will not give us complete tech, but they'll happily push down finished products if that leverage and lobbies work out well. UK should be our solid partner in defense, not sure why it has not moved in that direction significantly.

But the bigger problem is can we afford western weapons in numbers for our both neighbours. ? We need a mix of cheap (indigenous/Russian) and quality (western/USA) weapons.

In short term, yes. In long term we need our own R&D base and industry with appetite to sustain it.

Funding problem in India is just perpetual

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Punching above our weight class would be going for more tejas. That’s the definition of punching above our weight class. Expecting the tejas to perform roles it cannot perform is punching above our weight class

Whole indian indigenous fighter program infrastructure and development depends on tejas if you kill it you will automatically close door for other indigenous programs. Tejas is a way to develop indigenous capabilities. I'm not comparing it with any other programs but the capability it brings is unique for india.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Whole indian indigenous fighter program infrastructure and development depends on tejas if you kill it you will automatically close door for other indigenous programs. Tejas is a way to develop indigenous capabilities. I'm not comparing it with any other programs but the capability it brings is unique for india.

I understand that. Which is why I’m saying from the start. Don’t kill it. Allocate funds for it outside the defense budget. How? I don’t know. We can’t afford to kill it at all.

If it comes down to choosing between rafales or the entire tejas program, go for the tejas to save it.

Else, try all possible means to get the rafales. For the time being. We need that capability. Very much so.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

UK should be our solid partner in defense, not sure why it has not moved in that direction significantly.

Pakjabi mirpuri have been successfully able to spread in UK like cockroach + anti india Bangladeshi to are a headache + labour party believes that kashmir is unfinished business of partition hence it also involves UK in it.
In previous UNSC meet on kashmir indian ex ambassador said Dominic raab was dubious and in some way supported Pakistan.
First UK should stop interference in our internal issues then only we should move ahead with any type of defence cooperation.

 

[IndianHawk]

By all means let the tejas fill in the roles of mig21s. Ideally you would want tejas mk2 to do that, but hey. We are the kings of concessions and sacrifices so let’s do that.

Sukhois at this point are our only mainstay defense aircraft. Albeit with bad ew systems, no encrypted radios etc etc. Along with 50 odd mirages which would Mostly be used for precision strikes for obvious reasons.

For whatever reason we upgraded Jaguars with AESA radars.why? I don’t know. I’m not an expert so I will not comment. It’s never going to see that kind of action or combat, unless it’s used for high res sar mapping. Which the sukhois can do.

Mig 29’s supposedly are upgraded to a good extent with ew systems. Maybe that’s the only hope we have right now of a decent ‘capable’ fighter.

That's what IAF is planning . 123 lca and 200+ mwf.

How is su30 ew system bad?? It dodged multiple aim120 which are generation ahead of any Chinese seeker in deployment.

Israeli sdr is already being implemented fleet wide in IAF so your complain about encryption is pointless now.

Jaguar will probably be used in war after air superiority is established it's mostly a bomber and not very good at self defense.

Aesa gives it derby bvr so it can protect itself too. Plus aesa will make it Jamming resistance. So maybe now it will used like mirage too. Mostly aesa helps in low level terrain hugging flying profile.

Mig29 is very capable. Once it gets Astra after su30 it will be able to outshoot paki f16s.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

That's what IAF is planning . 123 lca and 200+ mwf.

How is su30 ew system bad?? It dodged multiple aim120 which are generation ahead of any Chinese seeker in deployment.

Israeli sdr is already being implemented fleet wide in IAF so your complain about encryption is pointless now.

Jaguar will probably be used in war after air superiority is established it's mostly a bomber and not very good at self defense.

Aesa gives it derby bvr so it can protect itself too. Plus aesa will make it Jamming resistance. So maybe now it will used like mirage too. Mostly aesa helps in low level terrain hugging flying profile.

Mig29 is very capable. Once it gets Astra after su30 it will be able to outshoot paki f16s.

Su30 ew is very bad. It does not detect missile launches. It was informed of missile launches by ground control and performed defensive maneuvers when amraams were at dmax. It has a shitty ew system. Which is why drdo is scrambling for the dare pod. I don’t know how successful that was.
Trust me. Ew on the sukhoi sucks.

Super sukhoi program is going nowhere. It’s like we want to get our asses whooped. I don’t get it. One fuckup after another. And now we are pussyfooting around buying the only capable fighter that could save face for the iAf.

 

[IndianHawk]

I understand that. Which is why I’m saying from the start. Don’t kill it. Allocate funds for it outside the defense budget. How? I don’t know. We can’t afford to kill it at all.

If it comes down to choosing between rafales or the entire tejas program, go for the tejas to save it.

Else, try all possible means to get the rafales. For the time being. We need that capability. Very much so.

36 more rafale will come infrastructure is already there.

The capability of rafale comes from aesa radar , Spectra sensor fusion and meteor missile along with scalp.

Mwf will have aesa radar derby ER and sensor fusion (lca mk1a already is getting limited sesor fusion).
Sfdr shall be there too by 2026-27 . Bramhos mini can be alternative to scalp much more deadly than scalp.

Mwf can give 80% of rafale capability at 60% cost. All inhouse. Time to invest more into mwf and amca rather then importing.

 

[nrj]

Pakjabi mirpuri have been successfully able to spread in UK like cockroach + anti india Bangladeshi to are a headache + labour party believes that kashmir is unfinished business of partition hence it also involves UK in it.
In previous UNSC meet on kashmir indian ex ambassador said Dominic raab was dubious and in some way supported Pakistan.

I am sure there are objective professionals who can keep aside the geopolitical inclinations while furthering overall ties. Regardless, if we think RR engine tech will help us leapfrog then we should do everything to make it happen. Frankly its tiring and downright pathetic to see status of kaveri and other engine programs. Either we acquire the tech or build it well ourselves, and for heavy fighters not light jets.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Su30 ew is very bad. It does not detect missile launches. It was informed of missile launches by ground control and performed defensive maneuvers when amraams were at dmax. It has a shitty ew system. Which is why drdo is scrambling for the dare pod. I don’t know how successful that was.
Trust me. Ew on the sukhoi sucks.

Super sukhoi program is going nowhere. It’s like we want to get our asses whooped. I don’t get it. One fuckup after another. And now we are pussyfooting around buying the only capable fighter that could save face for the iAf.

Source????

 

[Sridhar_TN]

36 more rafale will come infrastructure is already there.

The capability of rafale comes from aesa radar , Spectra sensor fusion and meteor missile along with scalp.

Mwf will have aesa radar derby ER and sensor fusion (lca mk1a already is getting limited sesor fusion).
Sfdr shall be there too by 2026-27 . Bramhos mini can be alternative to scalp much more deadly than scalp.

Mwf can give 80% of rafale capability at 60% cost. All inhouse. Time to invest more into mwf and amca rather then importing.

We need at least 108 more rafales. At least.

Capability of rafale has more to do with the last two points you mentioned. Sensor fusion and spectra. These two items are the ONLY reason the rafales are worth it. That kind of tech takes decades to develop. Not matter how much money you throw at it.

Being very honest here, even if amca started working on a similar system to spectra or capable sensor fusion tech, it would take 10 to 15 years to develop something like that.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Source????

Source for su30s not detecting missile launches?

Every newspaper ever.


Source for the dare pod to replace su30s shitty ew systems?

EXCLUSIVE: How A Secretive DRDO Lab Is Saving The IAF Su-30MKI - Livefist

Several layers of biometric security protect one of India's most secretive military laboratories in Bengaluru, housed in a building where there are unsually low noise levels at all time. It's an almost modest level of sound for an institution that has put India…

www.livefistdefence.com

 

[IndianHawk]

Su30 ew is very bad. It does not detect missile launches. It was informed of missile launches by ground control and performed defensive maneuvers when amraams were at dmax. It has a shitty ew system. Which is why drdo is scrambling for the dare pod. I don’t know how successful that was.
Trust me. Ew on the sukhoi sucks.

Super sukhoi program is going nowhere. It’s like we want to get our asses whooped. I don’t get it. One fuckup after another. And now we are pussyfooting around buying the only capable fighter that could save face for the iAf.

Su30 lacks maws but that is more important for low flying jets and helicopters . Our helicopters have maws . Maws for su30 is coming too. But that's mostly useful against sam at low altitude. Su30 flies at high altitude for aur superiority.

Detection of missile launch is done by rwr. Su30 has it and it works perfectly afaik.

Jamming pods too are coming up. Multiple of them.

Su30 upgrade is going on continuously. Astra has already been integrated. Sdr already done. Maws / jammers almost ready .

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Su30 lacks maws but that is more important for low flying jets and helicopters . Our helicopters have maws . Maws for su30 is coming too. But that's mostly useful against sam at low altitude. Su30 flies at high altitude for aur superiority.

Detection of missile launch is done by rwr. Su30 has it and it works perfectly afaik.

Jamming pods too are coming up. Multiple of them.

Su30 upgrade is going on continuously. Astra has already been integrated. Sdr already done. Maws / jammers almost ready .

Whoa. Dude. MAWS is very critical for fighter jets. What are you saying. I highly doubt su 30 has rwr. Why else did it need ground control to instruct it of amraam launches.

What do you mean jamming pods are coming? Coming from where? It was part of the super sukhoi program. AESA, jamming, rwr, maws etc.

That program has not even started yet.


Again, for the source:m of bad ew systems:

EXCLUSIVE: How A Secretive DRDO Lab Is Saving The IAF Su-30MKI - Livefist

Several layers of biometric security protect one of India's most secretive military laboratories in Bengaluru, housed in a building where there are unsually low noise levels at all time. It's an almost modest level of sound for an institution that has put India…

www.livefistdefence.com

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Source for su30s not detecting missile launches?

Every newspaper ever.


Source for the dare pod to replace su30s shitty ew systems?

EXCLUSIVE: How A Secretive DRDO Lab Is Saving The IAF Su-30MKI - Livefist

Several layers of biometric security protect one of India's most secretive military laboratories in Bengaluru, housed in a building where there are unsually low noise levels at all time. It's an almost modest level of sound for an institution that has put India…

www.livefistdefence.com

we need to remember that DRDO and Russian OEM are competitor.

I have never seen IAF ex su- pilot or another person claiming that SP-518 is useless if it was useless then IAF would have simply rejected it.

 

[IndianHawk]

We need at least 108 more rafales. At least.

Capability of rafale has more to do with the last two points you mentioned. Sensor fusion and spectra. These two items are the ONLY reason the rafales are worth it. That kind of tech takes decades to develop. Not matter how much money you throw at it.

Being very honest here, even if amca started working on a similar system to spectra or capable sensor fusion tech, it would take 10 to 15 years to develop something like that.

We could buy more rafales later I'm not denying that. It's just too costly. And right now there is no money to import when record number of indians are struggling in unemployment .