Mil Mi-26T2 Halo vs Boeing CH47F Chinook

[Adux]

We already have airfields in Demchok and Chusul (though not active), while we have activated DBO, Nyomi etc etc. I suggest people who blabber such nonsense that we dont have airfields in those sectors, do take up a map.

 

[Ray]

That is just one operation and guess what the damn birds werent available for rest of the time, they cant fly more than 30 hours/year, that sector right now is completely supplied by the Mi-17's. I dont think I ever spoke about American doctrine, I spoke only about the Indian Defense Doctrine in Chinese sector.

Lifting a heavy helicopter in HAA is a task by itself.

The air is so rarefied that the 'lift' that is essential (as per aerodynamics) is not there as is required.

 

[Ray]

Below, we will demonstrate a method to calculate the theoretical thrust that that a propeller or rotor can generate. Of course in a helicopter, the rotor disk is oriented such that we call its force "lift" rather than thrust, "thrust" would be used in the case of an airplane. On a helicopter, the force of a tail rotor would be best described as thrust.

The first step is to measure the diameter of the rotor or propeller and calculate the area in square feet. Area is defined as:

A [ft^2] = Pi * r^2

-or-

A [ft^2] = (Pi/4) * D^2

where r is the radius of the propeller or rotor disk and D is the diameter in feet, of course Pi is the number 3.141592653589793238462643

If we know the area of the disk in square feet, we then need to know the amount of power that is delivered to the rotor. This needs to be in the units of horsepower. To convert the metric system of units Watts to horsepower, use the conversion: 1 horsepower = 745.699872 Watts. The goal is to calculate a parameter called "power loading" in units of horsepower per square foot. Power loading is calculated by:

PL [hp/ft^2] = power / A

where "power" is the power delivered to the rotor or propeller and A is the area, calculated above. This is very important---approximately 10 to 15 % of the engine's power will be delivered to the tail rotor to counteract torque. This number obvisouly varies but 10 to 15 percent is a good starting point. If you have a 100 horsepower engine in your helicopter, expect only 85 to 90 horsepower to actually get to the main rotor. Additionally, you would need to reduce the power by an additional small percentage to account for frictional losses in the drive system. In the case of a tandem rotor helicopter such as the Chinook or meshed rotor like the Kmax, all of the power will be delivered to the main rotor and this in fact is the reason those helicopters are so well suited for heavy load lifting operations.

Using the parameter PL [hp/ft^2], we use an empiracly defined formula to calculate the thrust loading (after McCormick). Thrust loading is in the units of pound per horsepower and is a function of power and rotor disk area. Thrust loading (TL) is calculated:

TL [lb/hp]= 8.6859 * PL^(-0.3107)

Now that thrust loading is calculated, we can find the total thrust of the propeller (or lift of the rotor).

Lift = TL * power >>>[lb] = [lb/hp] * [hp]
*note: Calculation results are in pounds-thrust, NOT pounds-mass

Below are some common examples of the thrust developed by common aircraft engines and typical helicopters:

Theoretical thrust developed by common airplane engine - propeller combinations:
300 hp, 78" propeller develops 1,300 pounds of thrust
80 hp, 50" propeller develops 400 pounds of thrust
1.5 hp, 12" propeller develops 10.5 pounds of thrust

Theoretical lift developed by common helicopters:
300 hp, 30' rotor develops 3,400 pounds of lift (neglecting loss to tail rotor of 10-15%)
25 hp, 12' rotor develops 347 pounds of lift (neglecting loss to tail rotor of 10-15%)
2 hp, 6' rotor develops 39 pounds of lift (neglecting loss to tail rotor of 10-15%)
0.25 hp, 10.5" tail-rotor develops 2.9 pounds of thrust



Full series of example calculations:

[EQ1]: PL [hp/ft^2] = power / A
[EQ2]: TL [lb/hp]= 8.6859 * PL^(-0.3107)
[EQ3]: Lift = TL * power >>>[lb] = [lb/hp] * [hp]

Using equation one, we calculate power loading (PL) of a 6 foot diameter (72") disk with 300hp absorbed.
PL = 300 / (pi*3'^2)
PL = 300 / 28.27
PL = 10.61 hp/ft^2

Using equation two, we calculate the thrust loading. Typical communication/interpretation error is in the negative exponent of the equation. Remember, X^(-Y) is the same as 1/(X^Y).
TL = 8.6859 * (10.61^-.3107)
TL = 8.6859 / (10.61^.3107)
TL = 8.6859 / 2.083
TL = 4.2 [lb/hp]

Using equation three, we calculate the lift/thrust.
Lift = TL * power
Lift = 4.2 * 300
Lift = 1,251 pounds

Helicopter Aerodynamics, calculating thrust loading, disk loading, power loading

 

[Adux]

Lifting a heavy helicopter in HAA is a task by itself.

The air is so rarefied that the 'lift' that is essential (as per aerodynamics) is not there as is required.

Not taking anything away from it Brigadier, But I think our M-777 acquisition and the raising of China centric divisions, are the most important element of our eastern strategy. We have to supply our boys on mountain tops in forward areas, shelling directly at the chinese. We need an aircraft that is suitable to the mountains, which has high ceiling, extremely quick and carrying 8-10 tons.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

For C130 and C17 (or other transport aircrafts for that matter) to deliver IFVs, light tanks or BMPs to hot spots you don't actually need to have a runway. Look at these combat delivery training footages:

C130

This could also be done by C17, Il76, An12, and other similar sized military transports. I still think that transport of IFVs or BMPs by Mi26 is impractical.

For this you need a space on flat terrain to drop the tank..

There are few places where you can do this but not every where, There is where we need MI-26 and that is where it been used since its induction..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

From my personal view both are useful and have there role to play..

IAF will go for MI-26 and later Army Aviation will go for Chinook CH-47..



Others member interested this vs that carry on your debate..

 

[Ray]

I will not say anything since I am not going to be labelled an interested arms agent. :taunt1:


Without mentioning the combat environment and the AD umbrella that India is capable of putting up out there, one really cannot say which is the best on mere technical specifications.

 

[pankaj nema]

From my personal view both are useful and have there role to play..

IAF will go for MI-26 and later Army Aviation will go for Chinook CH-47..



Others member interested this vs that carry on your debate..

BOTH ; Goodness me

Sir do we have the money to be able to afford both Not to mention the
additional expenses on maintenance and spare parts which are now a days called as Lifecycle costs

 

[pankaj nema]

Not taking anything away from it Brigadier, But I think our M-777 acquisition and the raising of China centric divisions, are the most important element of our eastern strategy. We have to supply our boys on mountain tops in forward areas, shelling directly at the chinese. We need an aircraft that is suitable to the mountains, which has high ceiling, extremely quick and carrying 8-10 tons.

The helicopter which can carry M 777 in the quickest and easiest manner must be preferred

If we are buying so many M 777 then we need a few dedicated choppers for ferrying them around

 

[Adux]

Ladakh is mainly flat barren hard surface and rocky hard mountains(where we wont have tank battles anyways and where we will have our M 777, light weight gun), that is optimum for C-130, AN-32 and C-17s

Fact of the matter is, that we didnt have to carry the BMP on an emergency basis on that unreliable heli, it is only because we were not prudent enough in the first place to permanently deploy the tanks and bmp's over there. The same reason it used to take 2 months for us to properly deploy. How idiotic is that. Now with advent of cold start requiring quick deployment as well as moving up of the assests further forward, We wont have to do stupid Indian juggad in the face unpreparedness and not having mental acumen to plan ahead.

If you cant find a big enough place to land C-130, or air drop BMP's, then what good is the BMP in the particular areas as suggested by a poster in this thread,
if you dont have a big enough area to land an aircraft, then you dont have a big enough place to do a damn tank battle. Idiotic.

 

[Adux]

I will not say anything since I am not going to be labelled an interested arms agent. :taunt1:


Without mentioning the combat environment and the AD umbrella that India is capable of putting up out there, one really cannot say which is the best on mere technical specifications.

Thank You Brigadier, as usual experience is intelligence to a large extent. I have been extremely lucky reading yours and OoE posts in WAB and elsewhere, given me a lot of insight into how Generals like yourself look at an equipment.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

BOTH ; Goodness me

Sir do we have the money to be able to afford both Not to mention the
additional expenses on maintenance and spare parts which are now a days called as Lifecycle costs

Army and Air-forces are different branches and different funding..

On Army part, Army is interested in CH-47

 

[pankaj nema]

Guys Read this

Indigenous System Developed by OFB to airlift Field Guns

This shoes how USEFUL our 105mm guns are

 

[Mad Indian]

Army and Air-forces are different branches and different funding..

On Army part, Army is interested in CH-47

of course the Army is interested in Chinook. they are looking for a heavy lift TACTICAL heli not a strategic lift heli. IA
am pretty sure Chinnok has a better defence for surviving the hostile situations thab Mi 26. those Mi 26 will be sitting ducks for the enemy air defence if i am not wrong compared to Chinooks.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

of course the Army is interested in Chinook. they are looking for a heavy lift TACTICAL heli not a strategic lift heli. IA
am pretty sure Chinnok has a better defence for surviving the hostile situations thab Mi 26. those Mi 26 will be sitting ducks for the enemy air defence if i am not wrong compared to Chinooks.

Both are, SEAL team were travelling in a SOF Chinook, In Afghanistan many chinook lost to RPG-7 so does Russian in Afghan war..

MANPADS are effective against both..



Both are good and capable helos, they have different roles in our doctrine..

 

[Adux]

Has anyone asked a question, what is M-777 and why do army's buy it over the Archer's of the world in certain areas and certain doctrine's?

So as to make it lightweight and easily deployable, it has absolutely none of the advances our 1980's Bofors gun has such as the autoloader(it takes more men to operate), yet the United States Army trusts this gun, and the our own army has decided to buy it? Its about transportation and quick response. That takes precedence over everything else.

Similarly IAF is not going to buy longest range or biggest load taker, that is not the intent of the Air Force. One has to view it in that context, which is why Americans never offered the MH-53's. They have products in all ranges, Russians dont. Simple. They are still piggy backing on the Soviet Union tech, which is atleast 3 decades old.

 

[Adux]

I see no use of a heli of more than 15 tons in our armed forces

 

[Adux]

I like the way our russian agents earning rubles changed their views all along the thread, earlier chinook was bad, american etc etc, Mi26 is awesome, now they both have a role, therefore india should buy both, wahtever happens we have to buy Russian, Fund their R&D so they will make a better machine while not buying the same one we do (Refer T 90) and of course sell them to chinese at cheap rates(their future strategic partners)




I KID MY FELLOW INDIANS, I KID

 

[Adux]

Mi-26 completes 26 years of service in IAF! Happy Landings





Here is the statement issued by the Indian Air Force.

FEATHERWEIGHTS CELEBRATE 26TH ANNIVERSARY
New Delhi – 06 Apr 2012

126 Helicopter flight, christened 'Featherweights' was raised at Chandigarh on 15 May 1986.The unit was established to fly the Mi-26 helicopter, the largest and heaviest helicopter in the world, a very formidable machine capable of versatile roles. The flight lives by the motto 'Aaptsu Mitram' which means a friend who is always around to help when tragedy strikes. The 'Bhim' of the Indian Airforce has till date flown almost 8000 hours carrying 13559 tons of load.

The flight has the unique distinction of operating the world's heaviest helicopter in the highest and coldest battlefield in the world, the Siachen Glacier. The flight has undertaken flood relief operations in different parts of the country as well as relief operations during the Orissa Supercyclone of 1999. The flight played a major role in avoiding a Bhopal like gas tragedy at Paradeep Phosphates Ltd where the Ammonia gas tanks needed to be cooled at the earliest to prevent the gas from leaking out. The flight airlifted heavy duty generators which were used to cool the storage tanks thus avoiding a major disaster. The flight was also actively involved in the Kargil war wherein it performed numerous missions by day and night.

Another unique feature of the Mi-26 helicopter is its ability to carry very heavy (weighing upto 20 tons) and odd shaped loads slung under its belly. The flight has played a major role by airlifting various aircraft - fighters, helicopters and even a civilian passenger plane. Featherweights have played another big role in nation building by transporting heavy loads of the Konkan Railways Corporation Ltd which was entrusted with the task of laying the railway line between Jammu and Banihal. The flight also regularly undertakes air maintenance sorties to the highest Advanced Landing Ground (ALG) Daulat Beg Oldie (DBO) at an elevation of 15,500 feet above mean sea level. The flight was instrumental in making the ALG at DBO fit for use by the fixed wing transport aircraft by airlifting heavy machinery like dozers and rollers to DBO.

The flight also played an important role in the revival and reopening of Vijaynagar ALG in the North Eastern state of Arunachal Pradesh. All sorts of heavy machinery and construction material were transported in the Mi-26 to make the ALG fit for landing. The flight has been closely associated with various projects of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The Mi-26 has time and again been called upon to lead various helicopter formations on occasions like the Air Force Day parade, Republic day parade and Presidents fleet review.

The flight at present is commanded by Group Captain JVS Guron VM. As the flight completes 25 years of exceptional service, the air warriors of 126 HF look forward to continue the good work of nation building.

While I was searching the internet, I got this usual 'its awesome' piece people write on the event of somebody finishing 25 years of service etc. Forgetting the bad, just writing positives, but in there I got a data point.

The 5 Mi 26 (one was lost few years back) in the 26 year history of its service in India has a flown a combined 8000 hours, that is 60 hours/Bird, every year.
No Wonder they are called Hanger Queens, that is just pathetic. And we have people asking us to buy more of this crap.

http://defenceexpress.blogspot.in/2012/04/mi-26-completes-26-years-of-service-in.html

 

[pmaitra]

of course the Army is interested in Chinook. they are looking for a heavy lift TACTICAL heli not a strategic lift heli. IA
am pretty sure Chinnok has a better defence for surviving the hostile situations thab Mi 26. those Mi 26 will be sitting ducks for the enemy air defence if i am not wrong compared to Chinooks.

Both are sitting ducks, if you ask me. Both are vulnerable to MANPADs. Both will need escorts. In case of Mil-26, you will need certain number of escort helos while for the same load, you will need more Chinooks and therefore more escort helos. It is more of a problem than advantage the way I see it.

You hate arguing with me ? ok..

There are places where nearest Airstrip is 20-50kms away and roads are not suitable for transporting of Armour or arty and takes time for infentry to reach there designation location, MI-26 play there role there..

Its not possible to make airstrip every place we want, Nature have restriction..

Unfortunately Kunal, some people think that all of the Himalayas are flat land.

This is some thing i am expecting..

In Last year Exercise Indian Army aviation units were introduce to Chinooks and taught how to operate and maintain them as part of Joint Exercise.. ( Not publish in Indian media )

Where as IAF may go for MI-26T2..

That is what I am expecting too. IA Aviation might go for Chinook but I see IAF going for Mil-26T2.