MH17 might have been shot down from air — chief Dutch investigator

[SajeevJino]

^^^

+1

Add Me Too in your List @Peter

 

[sgarg]

There is no reason why Russia would shoot down this plane. There is no reason why even separatists would shoot down this plane except by mistake.

It is important to understand the statements that came immediately after the event, specially the "conversations" offered by Kiev as evidence.

It is clear that is was a set up - an elaborate plot to blame separatists and Russia for this event.

 

[SajeevJino]

There is no reason why Russia would shoot down this plane. There is no reason why even separatists would shoot down this plane except by mistake.

It is important to understand the statements that came immediately after the event, specially the "conversations" offered by Kiev as evidence.

It is clear that is was a set up - an elaborate plot to blame separatists and Russia for this event.

If they are not Russian...?
If they Are Not Russian Sponsored Terrorists ..?


So It's Ukraine or That Aliens

 

[sgarg]

The sanctions against Russia is a significant war objective for Ukraine. Ukraine is bankrupt and has no means for a viable fight against Russia. So these dirty tricks are what is left in Ukraine's bag.

Ukraine is a country of mafia, hooliganism, blind hate, and entrenched corruption.

Only fools compare USA with Ukraine. I agree that USA is an open society with many positives that are absent in India. However Ukraine is far worse than India.

 

[pmaitra]

There is no reason why Russia would shoot down this plane. There is no reason why even separatists would shoot down this plane except by mistake.

It is important to understand the statements that came immediately after the event, specially the "conversations" offered by Kiev as evidence.

It is clear that is was a set up - an elaborate plot to blame separatists and Russia for this event.

Malaysia is a good customer of Russia. They buy defence equipment from Russia. Why would Russia lose a customer? All this talk about Russia (or militia) shooting down is utter hogwash. No sensible person will buy this. Moreover, the promptitude with which the western cabal scrambled for the microphone to blame Russia was a total giveaway.

 

[SajeevJino]

The sanctions against Russia is a significant war objective for Ukraine. Ukraine is bankrupt and has no means for a viable fight against Russia. So these dirty tricks are what is left in Ukraine's bag.

Ukraine is a country of mafia, hooliganism, blind hate, and entrenched corruption.

How many Years you Lived in Ukraine

I Have Interacted some Ukrainian National through this forum they are good and Friendly

Especially Mr. @gadeshi .but He is no more here after the Russian Psycho warfare over Eastern part of Ukraine

You can find More People like @Akim

 

[Razor]

How many Years you Lived in Ukraine

I Have Interacted some Ukrainian National through this forum they are good and Friendly

Especially Mr. @gadeshi .but He is no more here after the Russian Psycho warfare over Eastern part of Ukraine

You can find More People like @Akim

Mr Gadeshi is pro-Russian.
He isn't active on the forum, but when he was, he told me that he and others were working on re-uniting Ukr and Rus. He is from Kharkov.

 

[SajeevJino]

Mr Gadeshi is pro-Russian.
He isn't active on the forum, but when he was, he told me that he and others were working on re-uniting Ukr and Rus. He is from Kharkov.

I have Interacted with Gadeshi through PM .i didn't find he Love Russia More than Ukraine ..He always Identified as a Ukraine National and He never Said He support Russia on the Ukrainian Russian War

If he said Something Please post it Here ..he was left the Forum when The Civil war starts ..and He never Came till Now


I hope he will safe and Secure

 

[Razor]

I have Interacted with Gadeshi through PM .i didn't find he Love Russia More than Ukraine ..He always Identified as a Ukraine National and He never Said He support Russia on the Ukrainian Russian War

If he said Something Please post it Here ..he was left the Forum when The Civil war starts ..and He never Came till Now


I hope he will safe and Secure

Obviously will not post PMs.

But here is a quote from Gadeshi

Look, guys, Ukraine is still undergoing harsh times sinse USSR has fallen.
There is better now than in the 90-s, but we are still in a deep shit.
That's why al the processes in the army, AF and navy are ----ed up to.

We struggle to reunite the Slavonic countries and people into a joint country with Russia as a leader (except Western Ukraine, which are catholics and have been under dosen of conquerors for the centuries - they hate Russia and want to join EU which is a stupid decision for now).

So, all the ----ups and funny things are quite expectable.

 

[SajeevJino]

^^^^


Point taken ..Thanks

 

[Ray]

I do keep contact with my relatives who are in the US. A lot of engineering students in JU who were my seniors are in US/Uk and Canada. The only thing is that those who go to US never seem to come back to India. I do hear how they feel India is great etc but sadly if someone asks them if they would return they suddenly turn cold and rude. The day they will return I will change my views and consider USA to be a slum area.

Are you the only one to have relatives in the US/ UK/ Canada and hence the expert?

What makes you feel that we have no relatives in the US/UK/Canda? My immediate family is in the US. But does that make me an expert?

And guess what? My relatives out there through marriage include whites, Jews, Muslim, Christian, Buddhists and so on. A greater cross section, if you will.

But still can't say, I am a sab janta or a know all.

Why do they, the Indians, who emigrate not return?

Simple answer.

Economics!

I am more fortunate than you. If anyone asks them why they do not return, they answer it most politely and are not cold at all, but very logically articulate the rationale for their becoming Americans.

 

[Ray]

So a North Korean jet shot down KAL 007 in Soviet airspace? Or perhaps American fighter jets from Okinawa intercepted KAL 007 in Soviet airspace and shot it down there in a brutal false flag ops? Or maybe aliens in Soviet airspace shot down KAL 007 as part of their Earth experiment?

Do not display your ignorance and your fondness for fictional scenarios akin to Star Trek..

Read it up before you comment so inanely.

One of the most tragic and perplexing civil aviation disasters in the twentieth century was the loss of a Korean jetliner in 1983. Korean Air Lines Flight 007
(KAL 007), a Boeing 747 jumbo jet flying from Anchorage, Alaska, to Seoul, South Korea, deviated more than 200 miles into Soviet territory and was
subsequently shot down.
http://ti.arc.nasa.gov/m/profile/adegani/Crash%20of%20Korean%20Air%20Lines%20Flight%20007.pdf

Note NASA link.

You may like to know that subsequent release of KAL 007 flight transcripts and flight recorders by the Russian Federation has clarified some details.

As a result of the incident, the United States altered tracking procedures for aircraft departing Alaska. The interface of the autopilot used on airliners was redesigned to make it more ergonomic

 

[Akim]

Malaysia is a good customer of Russia. They buy defence equipment from Russia. Why would Russia lose a customer? All this talk about Russia (or militia) shooting down is utter hogwash. No sensible person will buy this. Moreover, the promptitude with which the western cabal scrambled for the microphone to blame Russia was a total giveaway.

The territory of the fall MH17 is under full control of the militants. Let them invite international experts and prove their innocence.

 

[asianobserve]

Do not display your ignorance and your fondness for fictional scenarios akin to Star Trek..

Read it up before you comment so inanely.

Note NASA link.

There's no ignorance there.

The whole World knows what happened with KAL 007 - an impatient communist ideologue made up his mind that KAL 007 was an American spy plane despite his own visual identification that it was actually a civilian airliner. He wanted to show the evil Americans the shortest way to hell and blasted off into oblivion what clearly was a civilian airliner.

You may like to know that subsequent release of KAL 007 flight transcripts and flight recorders by the Russian Federation has clarified some details.

As a result of the incident, the United States altered tracking procedures for aircraft departing Alaska. The interface of the autopilot used on airliners was redesigned to make it more ergonomic

Reading the flight transcript of KAL 007 would be too tidious (I seriously doubt you read the whole transcript). The account of the pilot who shoot down KAL 007 would be one of the best if not the best resource on that tragedy:

''I saw two rows of windows and knew that this was a Boeing,'' he said. ''I knew this was a civilian plane. But for me this meant nothing. It is easy to turn a civilian type of plane into one for military use.''

xxx

A confirmed Communist who lives in the Caucasus region, Colonel Osipovich insists that the jetliner was on a spy mission and that there were no civilian passengers aboard. He even considers himself fortunate to have achieved a measure of celebrity by having destroyed Flight 007.

You see, given that the jet was obviously unarmed and apparently civilian, the Col. Osipovich should have stayed on the side of caution. He should have relayed to ground controllers all his observations of the jet and should have specifically informed them that it looks like a civilian airliner. No doubt a different conclusion would have been arrived at had ground controllers been informed of it.

But no, he would rather override his visual sense and conjure some silly justification to shoot down the aircraft (he believed that although it was a civilian airliner it was on a secret mission against the Soviet Union).

But Colonel Osipovich says he knew he had no doubts that he was dealing with a civilian plane and not an RC-135. Viewed through the prism of the cold war, the pilot treated the plane not as a lost commercial airliner, but as part of a nefarious mission against the Soviet homeland.

Colonel Osipovich also disclosed that in the pressure of the moment, he did not provide a full-description of the intruder to Soviet ground controllers.

''I did not tell the ground that it was a Boeing-type plane,'' he recalled. ''They did not ask me.''

Ex-Soviet Pilot Still Insists KAL 007 Was Spying - NYTimes.com


It would not have been hard for the Soviet ground controllers to let KAL 007 pass through Soviet airspace and then protest both against the South Korean and American governments with a warning that a repetition of such dangerous maneuver would be dealt with differently, the intruding jet will be shot down. All those poor passengers and clueless crew would not have perished that fateful evening.

 

[asianobserve]

(To mods, excuse this off-topic but I feel I have to say this- )

But of course not every Soviet soldier was trigger happy. For me I think the most important hero of the Cold War was a Soviet soldier, Lt. Col. Stanislav Yevgrafovich Petrov. He saved the literally World from nuclear armagedon in 1983.

Stanislav Petrov - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He exhibited the highest quality of reason and caution given the immense pressure he was in at the time.

 

[Razor]

There's no ignorance there.

The whole World knows what happened with KAL 007 - an impatient communist ideologue made up his mind that KAL 007 was an American spy plane despite his own visual identification that it was actually a civilian airliner. He wanted to show the evil Americans the shortest way to hell and blasted off into oblivion what clearly was a civilian airliner.





Reading the flight transcript of KAL 007 would be too tidious (I seriously doubt you read the whole transcript). The account of the pilot who shoot down KAL 007 would be one of the best if not the best resource on that tragedy:




You see, given that the jet was obviously unarmed and apparently civilian, the Col. Osipovich should have stayed on the side of caution. He should have relayed to ground controllers all his observations of the jet and should have specifically informed them that it looks like a civilian airliner. No doubt a different conclusion would have been arrived at had ground controllers been informed of it.

But no, he would rather override his visual sense and conjure some silly justification to shoot down the aircraft (he believed that although it was a civilian airliner it was on a secret mission against the Soviet Union).


Ex-Soviet Pilot Still Insists KAL 007 Was Spying - NYTimes.com


It would not have been hard for the Soviet ground controllers to let KAL 007 pass through Soviet airspace and then protest both against the South Korean and American governments with a warning that a repetition of such dangerous maneuver would be dealt with differently, the intruding jet will be shot down. All those poor passengers and clueless crew would not have perished that fateful evening.

The USA had a great interest in violating SU airspace and territorial waters, and did so several dozen times, without any regards to international law or requests from SU to stop such spying.
And if fact, that Col. is right, such a plane can be used for spying. Though I doubt it actually was a spy plane.
But then that decade was a tense decade. The Soviet Supremo was in hospital, in a couple of months NATO would do provocative simulated nuke bombings of Soviet cities and so on.
Also later in the decade the US will shoot down an Iranian airliner which unlike the KAL 007 flight neither veered away from its course nor was in US airspace. In fact the IranianAir Flight 655 was in Iranian airspace.

 

[Ray]

There's no ignorance there.

The whole World knows what happened with KAL 007 - an impatient communist ideologue made up his mind that KAL 007 was an American spy plane despite his own visual identification that it was actually a civilian airliner. He wanted to show the evil Americans the shortest way to hell and blasted off into oblivion what clearly was a civilian airliner.


Reading the flight transcript of KAL 007 would be too tidious (I seriously doubt you read the whole transcript). The account of the pilot who shoot down KAL 007 would be one of the best if not the best resource on that tragedy:




You see, given that the jet was obviously unarmed and apparently civilian, the Col. Osipovich should have stayed on the side of caution. He should have relayed to ground controllers all his observations of the jet and should have specifically informed them that it looks like a civilian airliner. No doubt a different conclusion would have been arrived at had ground controllers been informed of it.

But no, he would rather override his visual sense and conjure some silly justification to shoot down the aircraft (he believed that although it was a civilian airliner it was on a secret mission against the Soviet Union).


Ex-Soviet Pilot Still Insists KAL 007 Was Spying - NYTimes.com


It would not have been hard for the Soviet ground controllers to let KAL 007 pass through Soviet airspace and then protest both against the South Korean and American governments with a warning that a repetition of such dangerous maneuver would be dealt with differently, the intruding jet will be shot down. All those poor passengers and clueless crew would not have perished that fateful evening.

The problem with you is that you post without studying any issue.

I have quoted what NASA has stated. Now are you suggesting that NASA is a Communist organisation?

Even if it were identified to be a Boeing, there is also good reasons to believe that it might be a military plane in the guise of a civil airliner. And deviating 200 miles into Soviet airspace is hardly an error.

The autopilot system used at the time had four basic control modes: HEADING, VOR/LOC, ILS, and INS. The HEADING mode maintained a constant magnetic course selected by the pilot. The VOR/LOC mode maintained the plane on a specific course, transmitted from a ground VOR (VHF omnidirectional range) or Localizer beacon selected by the pilot. The ILS (instrument landing system) mode caused the plane to track both vertical and lateral course beacons, which led to a specific runway selected by the pilot. The INS (inertial navigation system) mode maintained the plane on lateral course lines between selected flight plan waypoints programmed into the INS computer.

The Soviet Union could have done many things, but it was the era of the Cold War.

Some more facts that you obviously are oblivious of is:

In 1983, Cold War tensions between the United States and Soviet Union had escalated to a level not seen since the Cuban Missile Crisis because of several factors. These included the United States' Strategic Defense Initiative, its planned deployment of Pershing II missiles in Europe in March and April, and FleetEx '83, the largest fleet exercise held to date in the North Pacific. The military hierarchy of the Soviet Union (particularly the old guard led by Soviet General Secretary Yuri Andropov and Soviet Defense Minister Dmitry Ustinov) viewed these actions as bellicose and destabilizing; they were deeply suspicious of US President Ronald Reagan's intentions and openly fearful he was planning a first strike nuclear attack against the Soviet Union. These fears culminated in Operation RYAN, the code name for a secret intelligence gathering program initiated by Andropov to detect a potential nuclear sneak attack which he believed Reagan was plotting.

Aircraft from USS Midway and USS Enterprise repeatedly overflew Soviet military installations in the disputed Kurile Islands during FleetEx '83, resulting in the dismissal or reprimanding of Soviet military officials who had been unable to shoot them down. On the Soviet side, Operation RYAN was expanded. Lastly, there was a heightened alert around the Kamchatka Peninsula at the time KAL 007 was in the vicinity, because of a Soviet missile test that was scheduled for the same day. A United States Air Force RC-135 reconnaissance aircraft flying in the area was monitoring the missile test off the peninsula.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007#cite_ref-Johnson-55_28-0

Heard of Iran Air Flight 655?

The incident took place in Iranian airspace, over Iran's territorial waters in the Persian Gulf, and on the flight's usual flight path. The aircraft, an Airbus A300 B2-203, was destroyed by SM-2MR surface-to-air missiles fired from Vincennes.

The cruiser Vincennes had entered Iranian territorial waters after one of its helicopters drew warning fire from Iranian speedboats operating within Iranian territorial limits.
Proceedings Magazine - August 1993 Vol. 119/8/1,086 | U.S. Naval Institute

Note US Navy ink.

This part is that should make your platitudes take a nose dive

Despite the mistakes made in the downing of the plane, the men of the Vincennes were awarded Combat Action Ribbons for completion of their tours in a combat zone.

Let your slapdash knowledge not cloud the facts of the issue.

 

[asianobserve]

The USA had a great interest in violating SU airspace and territorial waters without any regards to international law or requests from SU to stop such spying.
And if fact, that Col. is right, such a plane can be used for spying. Though I doubt it actually was a spy plane.
But then that decade was a tense decade. The Soviet Supremo was in hospital, in a couple of months NATO would do simulated nuke bombings of Soviet cities and so on.
Also later in the decade the US will shoot down an Iranian airliner which unlike the KAL 007 flight neither veered away from its course nor was in US airspace. In fact the IranianAir Flight 655 was in Iranian airspace.

Iranian Air Flight 655 was no doubt a tragic event. But unlike KAL 007 which was not in a hot conflict zone, Iranian Air flight 655 tragedy was set in the backdrop of actual military engagement wherein a US navy ship was struck by an anti-ship missile, another US navy ship struck an Iranian mine, and an ongoing US and Iranian naval clashes in the area.

 

[Razor]

(To mods, excuse this off-topic but I feel I have to say this- )

But of course not every Soviet soldier was trigger happy. For me I think the most important hero of the Cold War was a Soviet soldier, Lt. Col. Stanislav Yevgrafovich Petrov. He saved the literally World from nuclear armagedon in 1983.

Stanislav Petrov - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He exhibited the highest quality of reason and caution given the immense pressure he was in at the time.

Yeah that was a close call.

The Soviets later installed the Systema Perimetr (the Perimeter System also known as Dead Hand System.)
The rough description of its working is as follows:
During war or during periods of high tension (like provocative war games by NATO) the System is switched ON.
There are sensors embedded in various parts of the country which will measure illuminance, seismic activity, radiation, atmospheric pressure and so on. If sudden changes are measured in their readings, the system tries to contact the people with authority to launch a retaliatory strike. If appropriate responses are not received, the system assumes the command has been exterminated and the system launches rockets which send signals to the nukes. The nukes will then strike pre-determined targets.

Although this sounds scary, there is a positive. This provides a level of sanity to the people involved in make nuke strike decisions.
Because they know that a strike is guaranteed, even if they or Russia itself would collapse/be destroyed, they would be much more restrained in making strike decision.

 

[asianobserve]

The problem with you is that you post without studying any issue.

I don't think you can claim to know more of this issue than me. The only difference between you and me is that you are constantly trying to deviate blame away from the Russians.

I have quoted what NASA has stated. Now are you suggesting that NASA is a Communist organisation?

Please read again my post.

Even if it were identified to be a Boeing, there is also good reasons to believe that it might be a military plane in the guise of a civil airliner. And deviating 200 miles into Soviet airspace is hardly an error.

You see unlike the tense background of the later Iran Air 655 tragedy, the atmosphere above the airspace where KAL 007 was shot down was not as tense as the Gulf after Operation Prying Mantis. If it was only the fear of being spied on then the USSR do not have to resort to such drastic measures as shooting down the spy plane. This is especially true since there were clear indications that it was a civilian airliner and not the usual USAF spy plane.

This part is that should make your platitudes take a nose dive

Believe me we are on the same page on the issue of honors to those American sailors.