Marx becoming relevant again: Tariq Ali

Iamanidiot

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Marxism is fine as long as it gives the proletariat a set of tools to counter exploitation.But if Marxism and its offshoots are allowed to overwhelm the thought process we get dictatorships.If groucho marx is allowed to overwhelm the thought process in a democratic state we get a incompetent bunch of people with a screwed up work ethic in the state and an intelligentsia which is a farce,parody and satire which will become a laughingstock
 

ejazr

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@Mad Indian

Social conservatism and economic ideology are two seperate things. So you can be against gay marriage as well as support a leftist economic ideology aka Swadeshi and "integral humanism" which basically is socialism in other words along with a social engineering formula. In other words, you can have a liberal-right as well as a conservative-left. Where left and right refer only to their economic ideas and liberal and conservative to their social ideas.

On the other hand, you can have liberterians who have people who support centre-right economic ideas as well as support liberal values even though they PERSONALLY may not even agree with them. Ron Paul in the US is an example of this. Even though he personally may not like Gay marriage, he supports the fact that govt. should not interfere in the private lives of US citizens.

Whats being discussed here is the economic ideas, not social conservatism vs liberalism. And it would behoove you to not indulge in name calling. You can make a more powerful point without doing so.

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On topic.

Tariq Ali and others look at the GFC and say this is the failure of Capitalism or Free markets, but IMO its not so. Its an example of the wrong sort of govt. intervention in free markets, in this case the US Congress legislating the provision of home loans to low income earners. The so-called centre-right Republican party acted on a very socialist ideal of "housing for all" even those who can't afford and then when the banks collapsed, it had to use tax payer money to spread the losses. The irony of it all is that the low income earners STILL lost their houses.

The other thing is to not mix up Communism and Socialism, IMO, socialism is more associated with socio-economic policies and works well within a democratic setup i.e. Europe's social democrats. On the other hand Communism is a mixture of socialism and a political ideology of that the ploretariat should be the rulers or dictators. In other words, Communism becomes, state enforced socialism.

In a democratic context, socialists would have to convince and compromise so that consent of the majority is taken. Ofcourse, that doesn't mean you would not find examples of State Capitalism. Most of the oil rich countries basically run their oil companies in a form of State capitalism and corporate model.

In the real world, ideologies and principles will always have to adapt and change constantly to be relevant. The Europe of today is much more towards the centre left than right before WWII for example which indulged in crony capitalism before.

Marxists in the USSR for example failed to modify and adapt their ideologies and failed while Maoists in China accepted and adapted Free Market principles and suceeded. Similarly, the European countries responding to the challenge posed by Communism adapted their version of Free markets to adopt leftist principles like minimum wage or universal heatlh care. France for example has some of the strictest labour laws. You could argue wether it is efficent for France or not but that is the path they have chosen. You could even argue that taking this path is one of the reasons why southern European countries are part of the EU crisis zone.

But this process shows the idea of thesis, anti-thesis and an emerging synthesis of ideas in action
Thesis, antithesis, synthesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

ejazr

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Fareed Zakaria talking about the return of the European left

Zakaria: The return of the Left – Global Public Square - CNN.com Blogs

It has now been four years since the start of the global financial crisis. This was a crisis that showcased a breakdown of markets - too much leverage, too little concern about risks and too much debt. So you'd imagine that any political backlash would involve a move towards the left.

Well, that's not what happened.

Instead, we saw a shift towards the political right in much of the industrialized world. Here in America, the Tea Party was born, pulling conservatives further towards the right. Consider that in the 2008 election, Mitt Romney was considered the conservative challenger to John McCain. In this election he is the moderate, outflanked on the right by every other candidate.

This dynamic seems afoot in Europe as well. Britain's Conservatives returned to power after 13 years. Germany's Merkel and France's Sarkozy cemented their positions. Spain has a new conservative government.

What happened to the left? Why was there no great surge in left-wing populism?

My own theory is that in the crisis the state had to jump in dramatically to stop a depression, but those actions - taking over banks and car companies, guaranteeing debts and mortgages - scared the hell out of people on the right, who saw it as the beginning of a new socialism.

The left never mobilized. The Occupy movement channeled popular discontent into its protests, but it never really had a coherent program and never gained traction.

But that seems to be changing. The French elections may prove to be the beginning of a new trend. The Socialist Francois Hollande is proposing a 75% tax rate on people earning more than a million Euros. He's now been upstaged by the more fiery Jean-Luc Mélenchon. The Left Front candidate has been holding huge meetings across the country, telling seas of flag-waving followers that he would impose a 100% tax rate on all earnings above half a million dollars. And these left wing candidates are polling well.

Consider, on a more timid scale, President Obama's 2012 campaign, which is moving to the left both in style and substance as he takes the "Buffett tax" on the road.

Read: 2012 - the year of elections

Look at the protests in Greece and Italy, which are getting more organized. Or consider even, "The Pirate Party". This is a European political network that was founded on the basic platform that information should be shared for free. They want to legalize online file sharing and minimize copyright protections.

I reported last year how the German offshoot of the Pirates won enough votes to enter the Berlin state legislature. Critics said it was a flash in the pan.Berlin is an urban city-state with a lot of rebellious young college students. But last week it scored a second win in Saarsland, a rural, gentrified state on the French border.

The Pirates won 7.4% of the vote to enter parliament. Polls now suggest that not only will the Pirates enter two more state legislatures next month, they have also become Germany's third most supported party.

So a new left-wing group with no real platform on energy, taxes or foreign affairs is now the third most popular party in Europe's leading economy.

We might be seeing the beginnings of a left-wing response to the crisis channeling popular discontent – some of it is extreme, some wacky.

But perhaps the larger function these groups will serve is not to actually be elected to run a government, but to do what the Tea Party seems to have done: To use its voter base to pressure moderates.

If the Tea Party made the right more right, then don't be surprised if France's left and Europe's Pirates make their governments more attentive to the left.

We may be in for more ideological strife in the West.
 

amoy

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Marxists in the USSR for example failed to modify and adapt their ideologies and failed while Maoists in China accepted and adapted Free Market principles and suceeded.
Not really so IMO. China has never fully adapted to "Free Market" principles as state intervention in economy plus state-owned enterprises are visibly overwhelming in major sectors. Especially nowadays when competition goes beyond borders "state capitalism" (in other words "China styled socialism") is at its full play with mega conglomerates pioneering abroad for resources.
 

asianobserve

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Not really so IMO. China has never fully adapted to "Free Market" principles as state intervention in economy plus state-owned enterprises are visibly overwhelming in major sectors. Especially nowadays when competition goes beyond borders "state capitalism" (in other words "China styled socialism") is at its full play with mega conglomerates pioneering abroad for resources.

The most important thing is that China is already a capitalist economy where private ownership of property and means if production are recognised. But I still doubt the soundness of state driven companies going long term... It may work for smaller countries like Singapore, I'm still waiting for the verdict on large countries like China. Only time will tell but as of the moment China's state directed economy is doing exceptionally well.

IMO, state controlled economy has its plus and minus sides, we know the plus sides already, but we have yet to see a serious downside of it. I suspect if ever the Chinese economy falters as a whole (and sky-high individual expectations are frustrated by let's say slowing wage increase) we could see social unrest of unheard of proportions on a Chinese scale... Right now their economy is slowing down which is not really that serious for successful Chinese but is spectacularly bad for ordinary Chinese who are expecting dramatic benefits from their "economic miracle."
 

amoy

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IMO, state controlled economy has its plus and minus sides, we know the plus sides already, but we have yet to see a serious downside of it. I suspect if ever the Chinese economy falters as a whole (and sky-high individual expectations are frustrated by let's say slowing wage increase) we could see social unrest of unheard of proportions on a Chinese scale... Right now their economy is slowing down which is not really that serious for successful Chinese but is spectacularly bad for ordinary Chinese who are expecting dramatic benefits from their "economic miracle."
that's not a downside of "state controlled" economy, nor that of "China" alone. U're virtually referring to every state or every type of economy, at different scales though. For example isn't it correct to say if Malaysian economy falters... slowing wage increase... social unrest ... in Malaysia. UMNO's rule since 1957 ... be challenged.... again

Contrary to your allegation - state driven companies ... smaller countries like Singapore, IMO it works for big countries like China as well. For instance in case the state loosens its control over electricity, water supply or commodities and let them float based on "free market" principles the whole economy may be totally upset as public or private sectors all operate on basis of them.
 

Mad Indian

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Marx is becoming relevant again just like He became relevant in USSR :rotflmao:
 

asianobserve

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that's not a downside of "state controlled" economy, nor that of "China" alone. U're virtually referring to every state or every type of economy, at different scales though. For example isn't it correct to say if Malaysian economy falters... slowing wage increase... social unrest ... in Malaysia. UMNO's rule since 1957 ... be challenged.... again

Contrary to your allegation - state driven companies ... smaller countries like Singapore, IMO it works for big countries like China as well. For instance in case the state loosens its control over electricity, water supply or commodities and let them float based on "free market" principles the whole economy may be totally upset as public or private sectors all operate on basis of them.
UMNO does not own/control Malaysian businesses FYI, it controls the government... please do a little research.
 

amoy

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UMNO does not own/control Malaysian businesses FYI, it controls the government... please do a little research.
ya I know. Sorry then I gave it as an example What that "unrest" may imply, like Anwar thing.
 

asianobserve

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ya I know. Sorry then I gave it as an example What that "unrest" may imply, like Anwar thing.

Anwar was acquitted, right? So UMNO doesn't really have an absolute control over the Malaysian government. :thumb:
 

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