Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[farhan_9909]

Can we say The armour of t-80UD is better than the kanchan on arjun?or similar?or inferior?

 

[The Last Stand]

Can we say The armour of t-80UD is better than the kanchan on arjun?or similar?or inferior?

That is a hypothetical question until we get our hands on Kanchan.

But Arjun has more frontal armour than T-80UD except on the main sight weakspot.

 

[farhan_9909]

That is a hypothetical question until we get our hands on Kanchan.

But Arjun has more frontal armour than T-80UD except on the main sight weakspot.

arjun indeed is more better protected than t-80ud.and it also weighs almost 10tons more than t-80ud

what i meant is composition wise..which 1 is superior. not volume to the armour ratio.

 

[militarysta]

Can we say The armour of t-80UD is better than the kanchan on arjun?or similar?or inferior?

All is depend on context.
1. Indian Army haven't modern APFSDS and havent any APFSDS able to slighty overpas ERA armour. So Kontakt-5 on T-80UD is serious problem.
2. Basic T-80UD armour is quite good. LOS thickenss is smaller then T-80UD then in Arjun generally, but it doesn't means that armour is weaker.
3. Arjun have huge weak zones - gun mantled mask and main sight. It's more serious problem then in Leo-2A4.

More or less IMHO T-80UD is better armoured.

 

[The Last Stand]

All is depend on context.
1. Indian Army haven't modern APFSDS and havent any APFSDS able to slighty overpas ERA armour. So Kontakt-5 on T-80UD is serious problem.

DRDO chief has stated that we already have developed APFSDS for Arjun and T-90 with 650 mm penetration in an old interview. Yes Kontakt-5 is one big problem since we don't have segmented penetrators. AFAIK T-90S and T-90MS of IA were modified for long rod by Russians, both are descendant of T-90A which also has long rod upgrade.

Perhaps Rosoboronexport will stop playing around and provide Lekalo or Grifel.

I agree with the other things you said.

 

[militarysta]

DRDO chief has stated that we already have developed APFSDS for Arjun and T-90 with 650 mm penetration in an old interview. .

Can You provide source about this value? 650mm is quite big*, and unable to achive without technology transfer, or decades devlopmend work.

 

[The Last Stand]

Can You provide source about this value? 650mm is quite big*, and unable to achive without technology transfer, or decades devlopmend work.

@Kunal Biswas has details of the interview. I don't remember it properly but he definitely stated that 600+ round penetration was achieved.

We HAVE been trying to make guns and ammunition for decades, so I don't think he was lying. VK Saraswat was reliable source.

 

[The Last Stand]

@militarysta,

some info about MK-2 upgrades for Arjun


He doesn't mention APFSDS.

Also,

When we were doing 425 or 400 and production was on, the Army decided that we should go for a higher penetration capability, 600 mm, and they wanted to do it urgently because this was a post-Kargil requirement. So they went for import. And that import has unfortunately not fructified due to various reasons. Now because we realise that there is going to be a gap, we have already upgraded this (FSAPDS) to 500.

‘We have not understated the range of Agni V. We as a nation don’t have to hide anything with respect to our capabilities’ - Indian Express

He is talking about the 125 mm APFSDS for 2A46M gun we had for T-72 since production of 120 mm or Arjun was nowhere post-Kargil until 2004. He states that penetration of the 125 has increased to 500 mm.

 

[bose]

All is depend on context.
1. Indian Army haven't modern APFSDS and havent any APFSDS able to slighty overpas ERA armour. So Kontakt-5 on T-80UD is serious problem.
2. Basic T-80UD armour is quite good. LOS thickenss is smaller then T-80UD then in Arjun generally, but it doesn't means that armour is weaker.
3. Arjun have huge weak zones - gun mantled mask and main sight. It's more serious problem then in Leo-2A4.

More or less IMHO T-80UD is better armoured.

Regarding your observations on Arjun, what concrete data or information you have with you?? Apologies in advance if I have been stupid with the question...

 

[methos]

He is talking about the 125 mm APFSDS for 2A46M gun we had for T-72 since production of 120 mm or Arjun was nowhere post-Kargil until 2004. He states that penetration of the 125 has increased to 500 mm.

The point is that the 125 mm ammunition is better than the 120 mm ammunition available to India. Just take a look at the rounds!
Unless there is a secret hidden 120 mm APFSDS in India, the current 125 mm APFSDS is better. If there was such a secret 120 mm APFSDS, then they simply could adopt the same penetrator on the 125 mm gun and would end up with a better round, because rifled guns are extremely inefficient and thus the Indian 120 mm rifled tank gun has an effective energy output of 9 MJ, while even old Mango has a muzzle energy of 10 MJ.

 

[Damian]

Regarding your observations on Arjun, what concrete data or information you have with you?? Apologies in advance if I have been stupid with the question...

His observations are actually 2 or 3 years of observations made by me, Militarysta and Dejawolf as well. Just look at the tank itself, and you will see.

 

[militarysta]

Regarding your observations on Arjun, what concrete data or information you have with you?? Apologies in advance if I have been stupid with the question...

Well - dozens of masurments Arjun -made on draws, photos. More or less im in one line in Dejawolf - Arjun Mk.I have serious flaws. The same whit grate respect to Indian industry and DRDO - Indian had serious problem whit make licenced T-90S, there is still lack many crusial components technology and I shoud belive that Idndian industry will be able made armour on top level? It's hard to belive IMHO. Of course Kanchan armour is still developed, etc etc. But I can image in what way coud go developmend, without Russian, Israeli or other support. We haven't still any confirm that some country whit advanced armour sold how-know to India, so it's rather logical that Indian industry is developed Kanchan by it's own, but it's haven't any single modern armoured tank (sold to) in India to just copy it's armour.
For other hand - T-80U and UD is well known -even whit 80s armour composition, Konatkt-5 is well known -to, and T-80UD is ex-Soviet top level tank -in fact whit the most modern and danger family - mucht better then T-72/90S. Those tank was sold to Pakistan -in those top level (as for late Soviet tanks) an it's logicall that Pak engineers had acess to armour technology (coposition) and others. They just coud copy it, and in cooperation whit PRC put in Al-Chalid. It's mucht mucht more comfortable situation then in India when indian industry is trying to developed it's own solutions. And have no "pattern" to copy it.

 

[bose]

His observations are actually 2 or 3 years of observations made by me, Militarysta and Dejawolf as well.

I wanted to know more details about that very observation, with hard facts & figures... gone through that measuring context, a novice like me with some interests on Tanks found that aimless and disgusting sometime...

Just look at the tank itself, and you will see.

Just by looking at the Tank one can not come to a conclusion... atleast a novice like me will not...

 

[ersakthivel]

The fact is other than a white armored block nothing is behind the orange dialed FCS box of ARJUN.

I challenge anyone to prove that there is only empty space behind the orange FCS box,from the photo below lack of any dark shadows behind the orange FCS box in pic-3 shows that there is no emoty space behind it, but only a white armored column on whose sides the lens like blue optics is bolted on .

If there is empty space behind the orange FCS part how can be that blue optic bolted on to the empty space?, so close behind the orange fcs? also if the picture is magnified by two or three times we can clearly see the shadows of the cables falling on the white armored wall behind the orange FCS box . IF there is only empty space how can shadows fall on empty space?

So even protection is there for ARJUN turret front aka LEO 2 as far as I know,

So protection is even through out the front, it has been discussed thread bare in ARJUn MBT thread,

Ammo development and high powered engine development will follow when large orders are placed for mk-2 to further take the program to another level.

The slip ring obdurator tech developed for MK-1 ensures any higher penetration APFSDS rounds long rods imported from abroad can be customized for ARJUn's rifle gun.

And it's tracks have been widened in mk-2 to retain the same lower ground pressure per square inch.

Kanchan armor too is under continuous development.

 

[Andrei_bt]

DRDO chief has stated that we already have developed APFSDS for Arjun and T-90 with 650 mm penetration in an old interview. Yes Kontakt-5 is one big problem since we don't have segmented penetrators. AFAIK T-90S and T-90MS of IA were modified for long rod by Russians, both are descendant of T-90A which also has long rod upgrade.

Perhaps Rosoboronexport will stop playing around and provide Lekalo or Grifel.

I agree with the other things you said.

They are not playing, they are developing for rounds 20 years and still don't have them fielded.
As for T-90S it is only availible a small round with +20% penetration comparing "mango".

 

[Andrei_bt]

arjun indeed is more better protected than t-80ud.and it also weighs almost 10tons more than t-80ud

what i meant is composition wise..which 1 is superior. not volume to the armour ratio.

Arjun turret armour is a complete disaster... 10 tons weight is deference not of armour but on huge old motor transmission unit and layout.

 

[bose]

Arjun turret armour is a complete disaster... 10 tons weight is deference not of armour but on huge old motor transmission unit and layout.

Something is bugging you, please care to explain...

 

[The Last Stand]

the Indian 120 mm rifled tank gun has an effective energy output of 9 MJ, while even old Mango has a muzzle energy of 10 MJ.

Must you forget the fact that the ARDE gun fires at a lower muzzle velocity and has a much smaller and slightly lighter projectile? A longer penetrator and more propellant can take that 9 MJ value to something much higher.

 

[farhan_9909]

Ammo storage bins..Similar to those on the Arjun

 

[methos]

Must you forget the fact that the ARDE gun fires at a lower muzzle velocity and has a much smaller and slightly lighter projectile? A longer penetrator and more propellant can take that 9 MJ value to something much higher.

Not really.
A longer penetrator alone does not help much, because the 125 mm APFSDS rounds can also be made longer (the Indian Mk 2 APFSDS does not reach the autoloader's limit). The current 120 APFSDS used on the Arjun is obsolete, introducing a better one is important.
You cannot simply put more propellant into a tank gun. First of all there is no place for it (the breech cannot simply be enlarged) and secondly the efficiency decreases the more powder one use (especially on rifled guns). Using better propellant is an option, but the Indian tank gun does not seem to support as much pressure as other ones.
Buying or developing a smootbore gun is required for making the Arjun tank competitive.