LOC, LAC & IB skirmishs

[Bornubus]

But it is impressive to see Chinese are countering all alone.

Due to resources, political will, manpower, military and technological strength, thriving domestic arms industry and most importantly as an Economic Giant

 

[indiatester]

Can The PLA Cut Off The Siliguri Corridor?

That was up to the Doklam sector. Now let’s delve ahead. Assume the extreme case of the PLA succeeding in capturing and holding the Chumbi Valley and its shoulders. The distance as the crow flies from there to the Chicken’s Neck area is 20kms. A road winding along the mountains would be near 50kms. Even if they have a class 9 road building capability of 1 km a day, it would take approx 50 days to complete the road!

However, this road will be continuously interdicted by the Indian Air Force as well as artillery suitably deployed to destroy the road infrastructure as well as the PLA’s forward logistics bases along this axis. As mentioned earlier, even one PLA division will find it near impossible to launch an offensive into the Siliguri corridor along this tenuous line of communication. The PLA would need at least 20 divisions for an offensive to cut the Chicken’s neck from Doklam/Tri Junction.

In the near impossible scenario of some PLA formations succeeding in entering the Siliguri corridor, they would be cut off and disintegrate sooner than later. It would not be possible for the PLA to sustain this offensive.

In a nutshell it will be impossible for the PLA to even pose a threat to the Siliguri corridor.


mikesingh

Correct me here.
1) I thought Chumbi Valley is part of China.
2) For China to cause trouble at Siliguri corridor, they need not occupy it. They just need to deny us our lines of supply. For that, they can either use properly placed and protected rocket artillery a few hundred kms away, we will be in trouble. (I am ofcourse assuming that they have some heights where they can deploy those)

 

[captscooby81]

@Bornubus Any idea how old is this video someone posted it in youtube

G***d Mardo Mad****Ch**d

 

[Akshay Fenix]

Can The PLA Cut Off The Siliguri Corridor?

The combat ratio needed for an offensive in mountains is 1:9 meaning the PLA would need approximately nine divisions to attack one Indian mountain division. There are three divisions, 17, 27 and 20 Mountain Divisions under 33 Corps in the general area of Sikkim – Bhutan. The PLA would need at least twenty or more divisions to capture this area!

Now, providing logistics to these Chinese Divisions would be an uphill task (pun unintended!) Each attacking division needs a daily tonnage of approximately 600 tons of ammunition, food, water, medical equipment, spares, fuel, etc to prosecute an offensive. There would therefore be a need for constructing a two way road through mountainous terrain to the Doklam/Bhutan sector. But then, that would be easier said than done as this road will be continuously interdicted by Indian arty and air attacks. Their forward logistics bases would be interdicted too. They would require 600 x 1-ton trucks daily, operating 24x7 to supply just one division over a tenuous road link over mountainous terrain. Whether road space for this is available is the moot question. Further, deployablilty around the Chumbi Valley being restricted due to the terrain configuration, it would be impossible to employ more than one division for an offensive. This is way below the combat ratio needed for an offensive against Indian troops deployed in the area which is 9:1.

mikesingh

Sir ji, if thats the case then how will Indian Army take back POK. There are literally 100s of peaks in POK.

 

[indus]

Sir ji, if thats the case then how will Indian Army take back POK. There are literally 100s of peaks in POK.

One posibility is to bargain after ceasefire. In '65 we had almost reached Lawhore. Land across Punjab and Gujrat is easier to capture in case of conflict. Especially pakjab is vital for Pak's existance. Those areas can be bargained after all the terror and paki infra has been erased in PoK and ceasfire is declared

 

[Kalki_2018]

Indo pak war will not remain confined to Kashmir. India will salami slice pakistan while gaining territory in PoK. Also BLA, Sindhudesh army etc will be encouraged to start their freedom movement.

 

[Wisemarko]

These border skirmishes/ standoffs are so immature and ridiculous. Don't understand what China has to gain from that! India and China have lot to gain from being economic rivals than military rivals.

 

[Screambowl]

Diplomatic actions and Chinese do not go together...if you are expecting them to go for UN mediation etc. it's not going to happen. Heck the issue didn't even find a mention in the recent BRICS/SCO meeting on terrorism.

That's not how Chinese operate. Whatever diplomacy they WILL do is that in the event of hostilities, they will strongly push for Pakistan to needle India by heating up the LoC etc. without major fighting and heavily pressure Bangladesh and Myanmar to not allow any transit facilities.

At the same time they'll dispatch envoys to Russia asking them to refrain from aiding India in any manner whatsoever, reminding them of the Western sanctions and how China remains a solid bulwark against it. They'll "impress" upon Russia to stay "neutral" in the conflict. I do not believe that Russia will entirely disagree, though they may "impress" upon China in return not to push their luck too far and start believing that Siberia and Kamchatka are too up for discussion.

US/Japan/European states may offer some "moral and diplomatic support", even sell us some ammunition at a price of course. But that will be it.

Let us be very clear, when the push comes to a shove, we WILL stand alone.

Your post has contradictions.

They were building ports around India, one they have in Pak other in Maldives and there are many more commercial ports operated by the Chinese all over the globe. So I guess they are good in diplomacy.
Other thing is the industrial power. oh well without diplomatic efforts they would have not been able to spread made in china around the world.

They are very well diplomatically placed. When you say India stands alone. And Pakistan and NoKo being proxy of China. Does India have any proxy of it's nearby China?

 

[Screambowl]

Bhai, I am a defense enthusiast and pure amateur. I framed this scenario based on your threat perception. Gurus, please point out the flaws in the scenario(s).

A. India will prevent any intrusions by Chinese forces:

1. @Screambowl Bhai, during peacetime intrusion response and wartime response has no comparison.

2. For any Force to operate in any theatre, infrastructure of that particular theatre will play a major role.

An enemy intrudes in peace time!! We should not forget this. Example, Kargil war.

And there after you response. My point is, if taking the advantage of peace time Chinese intrude which they will what you going to do, when they heli drop two platoons of special forces with lots of logistics on a feature.

I am dead sure, you will not launch brahmos on the feature.

1. Let's assume that 30 light choppers are allocated for future sorties. 120 soldiers with resources enough to continue for a full week. Choppers are gone back to their base for now.

2. Anyone advocating for Kargil like situation, I'd like to remind them that this is 2017 and situation is hell lot different than 1999. For example, during Kargil we didn't use Air Force to it's fullest potential.

3. Flankers will provide air supporting roles while Mirages, Jaguars will blow Chinese into bits and pieces using PGMs

So you are saying that if Chinese intrude into Indian territory, and create a post on a feature , India again ' NOT Learnt from Previous Lessons' will Fight to vacate it's territory which will not even be disputed?

6-7 soldier intruded near mana village which is not disputed.

This does not match the new adopted logic of Mr. Dobhal, which is valid for Pakistan and semi valid for Chinese.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Your post has contradictions.

They were building ports around India, one they have in Pak other in Maldives and there are many more commercial ports operated by the Chinese all over the globe. So I guess they are good in diplomacy.
Other thing is the industrial power. oh well without diplomatic efforts they would have not been able to spread made in china around the world.

They are very well diplomatically placed. When you say India stands alone. And Pakistan and NoKo being proxy of China. Does India have any proxy of it's nearby China?

Have you experienced China doing business? I have. It's very similar to their "diplomacy", and has nothing to do with skill or ability.

China solely relies on two things: threats and bribes. They have bribed almost all the senior leaders of the places where they have ports. How do you think CPEC is getting built? Their diplomatic skills? Of course not - Pakistan is getting a horrible deal that no sane and honest public figure would commit to. It's all bribery. Same with Sri Lanka. Same with many African states. They also are known to blackmail both external but especially internal threats and challengers.

Let's not mix up thuggery and diplomacy. That's like saying Hitler was very persuasive.

 

[Screambowl]

China solely relies on two things: threats and bribes. They have bribed almost all the senior leaders of the places where they have ports. How do you think CPEC is getting built?

What do Indians do then? Giving lots of consignment and contracts to foreign firms for defence deals is a part of bribery only. And I hope what you say is half correct because if Chinese have mastered the tactic of bribing then this is more vulnerable to India, I would not like to comment further why? You know well.
Sri Lanka has been taught it's aukaad few days back they are back on right track

 

[Bornubus]

@Bornubus Any idea how old is this video someone posted it in youtube

G***d Mardo Mad****Ch**d

This is an old video, exact date and sector unknown.

 

[Flame Thrower]

An enemy intrudes in peace time!! We should not forget this. Example, Kargil war.

And there after you response. My point is, if taking the advantage of peace time Chinese intrude which they will what you going to do, when they heli drop two platoons of special forces with lots of logistics on a feature.

I am dead sure, you will not launch brahmos on the feature.


So you are saying that if Chinese intrude into Indian territory, and create a post on a feature , India again ' NOT Learnt from Previous Lessons' will Fight to vacate it's territory which will not even be disputed?

6-7 soldier intruded near mana village which is not disputed.

This does not match the new adopted logic of Mr. Dobhal, which is valid for Pakistan and semi valid for Chinese.

With all due respect bro, I always view your posts with utmost interest. But this is way below your standard

I agree that Kargil was a mistake, but surprise element is lost in Doklam. Today if China sends it's helos, it will be considered as an act of war.

Today, if couple of soldiers walk into border, they will have to leave without making any fuss, like they did couple of days ago. If Chinese intruders refuse to comply, they will be shot to death. No one will not go against us.

Coming Brahmos, everyone knows that it is to Target airbases, wartime dumps... hitting these will impact operations.

Now, coming to building structures....they are not possible in the current situation.

Assuming for future, after the humiliation(unless China defeats us) I bet China will not try these stupid things(PLA won't build, even if we withdraw for mutual face save). For sake of argument lets assume that PLA entered and constructed a watch tower or something, they will be asked to leave, if they don't comply with our request then lets attack them.

Anyways, my scenario was to test the Chinese intrusion using helos.

But, One thing is clear bhai....this post was way way below your standard

 

[rock127]

Breaking: Modi Govt. Hits China Exactly Where it is Required..Major Setback has left China Fuming
By dhruv - August 1, 2017



India is Rejecting Shanghai Fosun Pharmaceutical Group Co.’s proposed $1.3 billion takeover of an Indian drugmaker, according to people familiar with the matter, scuppering the biggest-ever Chinese acquisition in the country, Which is considered by many economic Experts as a Whole new Level of Smart Financial Diplomatic Attack on Chinese Business Interests, By any Indian Govt so far in History.

The Cabinet Committee on Economic Affairs, which is chaired by Prime Minister Narendra Modi, has decided to block the Chinese firm’s purchase of an 86 percent stake in Gland Pharma Ltd., according to the people. The companies haven’t been formally notified yet of the move, the people said, asking not to be identified because the information is private.

Tensions between China and India have escalated amid a renewed spat over territory of Dokalam Tri Junction, in a remote area of the Himalayas, one of the most serious flareups between the two Asian giants since a border war in 1962. A collapse of the acquisition would be a setback for Fosun Pharma, which had sought Gland Pharma’s stable of generic injectable medicines and facilities approved to manufacture products for sale in the U.S.

Besides being the largest Chinese acquisition in India, the deal would have also seen one of that country’s wealthiest persons investing in the Indian manufacturing story, giving heft to Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s `Make in India’ initiative.

Sources say Gland Pharma has a lead in injectibles, an area where Chinese firms lag Indian pharma companies. Gland Pharma says it has pioneered Heparin technology in India, and is a world leader in the Glycosaminoglycans range of molecules.

Last year, Chinese billionaire Guo Guangchang, who runs a diversified conglomerate under the banner of Fosun International, struck the billion-plus-dollar deal to buy Gland Pharma following the government’s decision to allow 74% foreign investment in pharma manufacturing through the automatic route.

Fosun Pharma, backed by Chinese billionaire Guo Guangchang, agreed in July last year to acquire control of Gland Pharma from an investor group including KKR & Co. The setback highlights the difficulties faced by China’s once-prolific acquirers, who are facing mounting pressure at home and abroad. HNA Group Co. recently scrapped the purchase of an in-flight entertainment provider, while Dalian Wanda Group Co. agreed to sell most of its theme-park assets amid scrutiny from regulators.

The Gland Pharma purchase had already completed Indian antitrust filings and been reviewed by country’s Foreign Investment Promotion Board. Jagdish Thakkar, a spokesman in the Indian Prime Minister’s Office, didn’t return phone calls, while an email sent to Cabinet Secretary Pradeep Kumar Sinha wasn’t answered. Representatives for Gland Pharma and KKR didn’t immediately respond to requests for comment.

 

[Screambowl]

I agree that Kargil was a mistake, but surprise element is lost in Doklam. Today if China sends it's helos, it will be considered as an act of war.

Dokhlam is not Indian territory and they already did fly bro in Uttarakhand last month, two helis. And the media was kept low profile on this. Only after their soldiers intruded into NON DISPUTED zone in uttarakhand which is 2000 kms from Doklam some development started which was quoted by @Bornubus

Follow the pattern. And if I am correct they might have or will intrude in Ladhak soon. Which although happens without being notified in media.

My point is what if they had dropped their SF from those two helis on the features and created a standoff?

What is the limitation to bear Chinese armed soldiers' presence on Indian territory?? If they are not harming does it mean that India can allow them?

they will be asked to leave, if they don't comply with our request then lets attack them.

I literally do not think they will be attacked but yes only arrested and taken as illegals.

 

[SanjeevM]

Chinese are thieves as well.

34 lakh diamond heist at Mumbai expo solved, 2 Chinese held at airport
http://m.timesofindia.com/city/mumb...nese-held-at-airport/articleshow/59872271.cms

 

[mayfair]

Your post has contradictions.

They were building ports around India, one they have in Pak other in Maldives and there are many more commercial ports operated by the Chinese all over the globe. So I guess they are good in diplomacy.
Other thing is the industrial power. oh well without diplomatic efforts they would have not been able to spread made in china around the world.

They are very well diplomatically placed. When you say India stands alone. And Pakistan and NoKo being proxy of China. Does India have any proxy of it's nearby China?

This is not just diplomacy. Chinese have money, there are poor countries around the world who need money. Chinese smell an opportunity and move in and once they have a foot in the door they push in. This is no different from how colonial powers expanded in the past.

This is statecraft, call it imperialism, call it China's version of Monroe doctrine if you will. Diplomacy is a part of it. This is how imperial and colonial powers expanded in the past. This is how US expanded it's reach and influence around the world in the 20th century.

I am not saying India stands alone. I am saying that we should we prepared for the fact that though, countries around the world are favourable to our point of view, when it comes down to an actual conflict, we will have to go it alone. No one will formally come to our aid. If someone does, it's not because they like us, but it's because they have their own interests to look after and aiding us maybe in their interests.

We do not have a proxy anywhere because,
1. We have never played that game. AT least not at the nation state level. Sure we've had proxies in terms of leaderships in many countries, but never a country as a whole. Sure, Bhutan, Mauritius etc have deep links with India, but they are not our proxies.
2. We do not have the resources to match China and cultivate proxies. Proxies are like mistresses, do not kepe them if you cannot afford them. A self-insufficient proxy is a drain on resources, nothing more.
3. Proxies have a brains of their own...

Regarding the proxies, NoKo and Cuba were nurtured by Soviet Union more than China and when USSR imploded, so did the funds. China in contrast has done nothing to economically shore up NoKo to the same level as USSR did.

In fact China fears a collapse of NoKo as much as SoKo, Japan and the West do. A NoKo collapse will lead to 30 million hungry, desperate NoKo residents flooding across the borders and at least half if not more of them will run to China, where the borders are more relaxed, fewer mines, less soldiers and a large ethnic Korean population. Koreans of all hues strongly believe that North Eastern China is Korean territory of the great Goryo and Jeolla kingdoms that has been illegally occupied by China.

Pakistan is not just a Cheeni proxy, Napakis are rentiers who rent out to the highest bidder. Despite all the "proxiness", they still take money from US and KSA and from time to time do what is not always in Cheeni interests. Because all their actions are guided by their irrational hatred and a schizophrenic inferiority complex when it comes to India.

 

[square]

after months of warnings and threat , now its the turn of conspiracy therories running high on chinese media....

India's 'China Threat' Is To Cover Up Internal Failings: Chinese Media


Won't Allow Anyone To Split China,: Xi Jinping.

 

[Why so serious?]

Make India an enemy and you will lose your lifeline, Chinese experts caution Beijing over Doklam
By Dipanjan Roy Chaudhury, ET Bureau | Updated: Aug 02, 2017, 09.55 AM IST

• China, the Doklam standoff could potentially threaten Beijing’s Belt and Road Initiative (BRI), Chinese scholars and experts have warned for the first time.
  
  Macau-based military expert Antony Wong Dong has cautioned that Beijing’s hardball politics are pushing New Delhi further away and could end up making it an enemy.
  
  “China is playing psychological warfare... but it should realise that even if it defeated India in a war on land, it would be impossible for the PLA navy to break India’s maritime containment,” Wong told Hong Kong-based English daily South China Morning Post (SCMP), pointing to the importance of the Indian Ocean as a commercial lifeline.
  
  China is largely reliant on imported fuel and, according to figures published by Chinese state media, more than 80% of its oil imports sail through the Indian Ocean or Strait of Malacca.
  
  “Unlike Southeast Asian countries, India has never succumbed to China’s ‘carrot and stick’ strategies,” Wong said. “India is strategically located at the heart of China’s energy lifeline and the ‘Belt and Road Initiative’, and offending India will only push it into the rival camp, which [Beijing believes] is scheming to contain China by blocking the Malacca Strait and the Indian Ocean.”
  
  
  Sun Shihai, an adviser to the Chinese Association for South Asian Studies, expressed similar sentiments. He told SCMP that he was concerned that the worst military stand-off in more than three decades would fuel anti-Chinese sentiment in India, as mistrust and hostility between the two countries run deep.
  “If not properly handled, the border row could have a long-term impact on China’s efforts to expand its diplomatic and economic influence beyond the Asia-Pacific region with its “Belt and Road Initiative”, he said, adding, “India is one of the most important strategic partners for China’s ‘Belt and Road Initiative’ because of its geographic location.”
  
  “Beijing has been trying to lure India to join ‘Belt and Road’ projects because both countries stand to benefit from them strategically and economically. [But] The latest tensions have soured bilateral ties and the growing mistrust will only make New Delhi more reluctant to make a decision,” Sun claimed.
  
  It may be recalled that Delhi boycotted the BRI Summit in Beijing in May on the grounds that China-Pak-Eco-Corridor under BRI violates India’s sovereignty and that the initiative lacks transparency.
  
  Referring to India's position on BRI at the maiden Indo-US Forum here on Monday night, Foreign Minister Sushma Swaraj said, "…We have also outlined the principles that should be adhered to in undertaking connectivity initiatives, including ensuring respect for sovereignty and territorial integrity.”
  
  Zhou Chenming (a military expert with Knowfar Institute for Strategic and Defence Studies, a non-government think tank in Jiangyin, Jiangsu province, China) told SCMP that China was well aware of the futility of an all-out war for a desolate border area that is “frozen for up to eight months of the year.
  
  Besides the [human] casualties, the logistical cost of a border conflict between China and India would be inestimable.”
  
  India’s interest in enhancing its naval capabilities, especially its fleet of submarines, is believed to have been prompted by China’s military modernisation and its increased activity in the Indian Ocean and the narrow Malacca Strait, which connects it to the waters of East Asia, according to SCMP. India’s growing focus on submarine warfare was underscored after it was included as part of the joint naval drills in Malabar.

 

[Bornubus]

Only after their soldiers intruded into NON DISPUTED zone in uttarakhand which is 2000 kms from Doklam some development started which was quoted by @Bornubus

Approx 200 ~ Chinese but i doubt since such a big mobilization is just for 200 troops.


Regarding the violation of Indian Air space by China it's also a regular event not only by Helis but also from Fighter - Bomber of PLAAF