Light tanks for Indian Army

[sayareakd]

T90S tank is going to fill up for light tanks requirement in Indian army.

 

[arnabmit]

T-90S is not <25 tons. How can it fill requirement for Light Tanks? How will they be air lifted?

T90S tank is going to fill up for light tanks requirement in Indian army.

 

[Damian]

could you translate each name for us?

Yes.

Wóz wsparcia ogniowego - Fire support vehicle/light tank
Haubica - Howitzer
Bojowy wóz piechoty ze zdalnie sterowanym systemem wieżowym (odmiana lekka) - infantry fighting vehicle with remotely controlled turret system (lightweight variant)
Wóz ewakuacji medycznej - MEDEVAC vehicle
Wóz minowania narzutowego - erratic mining vehicle (FASCAM)
Artyleryjski system przeciwlotniczy z armatami z KDA 35mm - Artillery anti-air system with KDA 35mm guns
Bojowy wóz piechoty z wieżą załogową - infantry fighting vehicle with manned turret
Wóz inżynieryjny-torujący - engineering vehicle with mine plough
Wóz zabezpieczenia technicznego - armored recovery vehicle
Wóz dowodzenia - Command vehicle
Artyleryjski zestaw przeciwlotniczy - self propelled anti air artillery system
Wóz radiolokacyjny - vehicle with radar system

These are presented possible variants of our modular, multirole combat platforms WPB "Anders" and future WPB "Rydwan".

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I dont think there is any talk about National Light tank Project..

There was a Light tank RFI was out, I think it caught in red tape..

@Kunal Biswas

Sir, so is this now the Indian LT prospective or is there any other programs currently undergoing?

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/3294-105-mm-light-tank-drdo.html

 

[sayareakd]

T-90S is not <25 tons. How can it fill requirement for Light Tanks? How will they be air lifted?

ask that to P2p he is knows more about Russian tanks and Indian army requirements.

 

[arnabmit]

@p2prada

ask that to P2p he is knows more about Russian tanks and Indian army requirements.

 

[sayareakd]

^^^

At stake here is the Rs 10,000-crore purchase of 354 new T-90MS tanks for six tank regiments for the China border. Business Standard had first reported the raising of these regiments (September 17, "In a first, Indian tank brigades to defend China border").

Army scuttles Arjun trials to push through Russian T-90 purchase | Business Standard

 

[arnabmit]

To be transferred one by one on C-17s and permanently stationed there?

^^^


Army scuttles Arjun trials to push through Russian T-90 purchase | Business Standard

 

[Kunal Biswas]

We need a tank that can be hanged down under MI-26..

To be transferred one by one on C-17s and permanently stationed there?

 

[arnabmit]

Exactly! That is why I am confused about @sayareakd's post above...

We need a tank that can be hanged down under MI-26..

 

[sayareakd]

Exactly! That is why I am confused about @sayareakd's post above...

exactly we need light tank, but Russian lobby and IA now wants T90SM tank for the China border.

 

[arnabmit]

exactly we need light tank, but Russian lobby and IA now wants T90SM tank for the China border.

 

[Damian]

Important information, I don't know whether she is bad or rather good and rational.

They decided to delete of the part of the programme "Rydwan", responsible for designing the new platform from scratch. It this way most probably happened because of costs.

At present MoD after analysing available options, decided on the following actions.

In Poland unmanned turret system armed the with the guns of calibre 120mm, 30 mm and ATGM will be designed and so on. There will be produced Polish analogues or purchased under licence and polonized such design elements like engines, weaponry (the HSW says about possibilities of opening of production line of guns of different type), blocks of transmission, electronics and the like

Howeverplatform as such, will be purchased in the form of licence of the already existing design, the MoD initially began conversations on three structures - CV90, ASCOD and SPz Puma.

However, the above concept of multirole combat platform is not dead, it is just that chassis will be based on foreing design to reduce costs and risks.

 

[p2prada]

@arnabmit

Regardless of Sayare's silly jibe, the requirement for a MBT on the Chinese border is quite important.

Light tanks serve no real purpose in armored formations. We need MBTs like T-90 which are light enough to be air transported and capable enough to act as armored spearheads. The bridges there can handle the T-90.

There is also this important point of reading between the finer lines which the other two you were discussing with never do.

If you read Shukla's article, his claims are rather half-assed. He is using the Army's new order for the T-90MS as a scapegoat to further his obsessive calls for inducting Arjun. He is like the Carlo Kopp of India. Making silly claims for whatever reasons.

I will point out this,
Army scuttles Arjun trials to push through Russian T-90 purchase | Business Standard

Top Army generals are undermining India's Arjun tank to push through a Rs 10,000-crore order for T-90MS tanks from Russia.

Here he claims that the T-90MS is undermining the Arjun tank. If we read only this statement, yes, the T-90MS order will undermine even the Arjun Mk2.

Next,

At stake here is the Rs 10,000-crore purchase of 354 new T-90MS tanks for six tank regiments for the China border.

Here, he points out the real reason for IA's need for the T-90MS. The Chinese border.

Next,

The Army is justified in wanting the T-90MS for the China border.

Here he agrees with the Army's requirement for T-90MS on the Chinese border.

Next,

But it is wrong in scuttling the induction of the Arjun in Punjab and J&K.

Here he is making a claim that has nothing to do with the T-90MS. He simply claimed that the Army is undermining Arjun, but at the same time he also accepts that the T-90MS is actually needed for the Chinese border.

This type of an argument is called the Straw man or Aunt Sally.

To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you read between the finer lines that I have pointed out, his case for Arjun inductions actually has no relation with the T-90MS purchase. He is making shit up and nationalistic jingos are simply lapping it up.

In the end all he is claiming is that since something worked 50 years ago on different tanks, the same would work again. However he fails to point out that the weight of the Arjun has simply been shooting up since the Mk2 was born while engine power has not increased any. It means all that was claimed for Arjun Mk1, Desert Ferrari, low ground pressure etc no longer applies today because the tank is 10 tonnes heavier.

Arjun Mk2 has seen a 14% increase in weight compared to Mk1. But no increase in engine power.

T-90MS has seen a 4% increase in weight compared to T-90S, but also a 16% increase in engine power. See the difference.

Also the 1400 HP engine of the Arjun loses more power than the T-90 does in cooling.

So how do you believe Shuklas' claims to stick if this is the reality?

Hope this answers your questions.

 

[arnabmit]

Thanks.

However my question is, is 50ton T-90MS air liftable with Mi-26? No. How will IA use it in mountains? One by one by C-17s? In static dug in positions? Because deploying them from the motor pool would take ages in these terrains.

How will heavy tanks like T-90MS operate in such terrain?

https://maps.google.com/?ll=27.609322,91.974106&spn=0.267416,0.528374&t=h&z=11

http://maps.google.com/?ll=28.425222,93.259506&spn=0.265397,0.528374&t=h&z=11

http://maps.google.com/?ll=28.910211,94.901276&spn=0.528342,1.056747&t=h&z=11

http://maps.google.com/?ll=28.277777,96.632309&spn=0.53153,1.056747&t=h&z=11

@arnabmit

Regardless of Sayare's silly jibe, the requirement for a MBT on the Chinese border is quite important.

Light tanks serve no real purpose in armored formations. We need MBTs like T-90 which are light enough to be air transported and capable enough to act as armored spearheads. The bridges there can handle the T-90.

There is also this important point of reading between the finer lines which the other two you were discussing with never do.

If you read Shukla's article, his claims are rather half-assed. He is using the Army's new order for the T-90MS as a scapegoat to further his obsessive calls for inducting Arjun. He is like the Carlo Kopp of India. Making silly claims for whatever reasons.

I will point out this,
Army scuttles Arjun trials to push through Russian T-90 purchase | Business Standard



Here he claims that the T-90MS is undermining the Arjun tank. If we read only this statement, yes, the T-90MS order will undermine even the Arjun Mk2.

Next,


Here, he points out the real reason for IA's need for the T-90MS. The Chinese border.

Next,


Here he agrees with the Army's requirement for T-90MS on the Chinese border.

Next,


Here he is making a claim that has nothing to do with the T-90MS. He simply claimed that the Army is undermining Arjun, but at the same time he also accepts that the T-90MS is actually needed for the Chinese border.

This type of an argument is called the Straw man or Aunt Sally.

Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you read between the finer lines that I have pointed out, his case for Arjun inductions actually has no relation with the T-90MS purchase. He is making shit up and nationalistic jingos are simply lapping it up.

In the end all he is claiming is that since something worked 50 years ago on different tanks, the same would work again. However he fails to point out that the weight of the Arjun has simply been shooting up since the Mk2 was born while engine power has not increased any. It means all that was claimed for Arjun Mk1, Desert Ferrari, low ground pressure etc no longer applies today because the tank is 10 tonnes heavier.

Arjun Mk2 has seen a 14% increase in weight compared to Mk1. But no increase in engine power.

T-90MS has seen a 4% increase in weight compared to T-90S, but also a 16% increase in engine power. See the difference.

Also the 1400 HP engine of the Arjun loses more power than the T-90 does in cooling.

So how do you believe Shuklas' claims to stick if this is the reality?

Hope this answers your questions.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Anyone who thinks that T-90S/MS are going to operate in those heights and such tight spaces is ' ill educated ' , Its better to use those DRDO BMP tanks which are accessible in those parts..

There are terrains where terrain specific system works, Perhaps instead of buying such worthless piece of equipment such as T-90MS for such region, One should be looking at other fields for up-gradation such as Artillery, Infantry & Aviation which are more important part of Mountain warfare..

 

[Mariner HK]

New Polish Light Tank Concept and a New Family of Vehicles

By January 2010 Polish defense company started to cut the first pieces of steel for a demonstrator of technology of a new light tank. This will be shown at the MSPO Defense Fair in Kielce this year. The light tank is supposed to be the first of a whole new family of vehicles its also possiable replacement for polish t-72s..

The new vehicle will be a joint enterprise with India's BEML corporation. India's requirement is the vehicle has to be able to be deployed by helicopters (by hanging it under the chopper):
Polski czołg z-Indiami - Altair Agencja Lotnicza

I guess now we all know from where we will receive our 100+ tracked light tanks..

? real? Its 2013 now i never heard about it

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Now you know ..

? real? Its 2013 now i never heard about it

 

[p2prada]

Thanks.

However my question is, is 50ton T-90MS air liftable with Mi-26? No.

Of course not. I never claimed Mi-26 will air lift the T-90. We have heavy transport aircraft for that.

One by one by C-17s? In static dug in positions? Because deploying them from the motor pool would take ages in these terrains.

Perhaps in parts and assembled in the field. Even smaller transports like C-130 can do that. Maybe IA will do that, airlift T-90s one at a time.

The Americans did that with the Abrams in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

How will IA use it in mountains?

How will heavy tanks like T-90MS operate in such terrain?

If IA has figured it out, tactics and infrastructure then only they will know.

However can you post pics of every single terrain in the NE, so I can tell you where they can use it. Impossible?

The last I heard, they need it in the West Bengal/Sikkim sector where there is a lot of flat terrain. I don't know whether they plan to use it in strike corps.

Don't ask me if I have checked this personally. It is IA's prerogative, not ours. If they have a requirement they will buy.

 

[SilentKiller]

We need a tank that can be hanged down under MI-26..

But we have only 3 of these giants remaining..
Moreover Chinook won deal not Mi26...