LCA Tejas vs JF-17 Thunder

p2prada

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No need to challenge your brilliance here, as reflected from your post, but you need to see it with a realistic perspective. The "junk" fighter is in service, 60 of them, it will start IFR by this summer i.e the block 2, where is the "ultimate" light fighter?
It's 50 aircraft.

Your 51st aircraft will be a block 2. Prototypes don't count.

I recall the IAF chief (former) categorized it as a 3++ gen fighter in terms of capability. Considering the overbudget and decreased flight characteristics, a mere 6g handling by the airframe, not to mention the ultimate Karevi and MMR radar saga, LCA has much ground to cover.
While I am not a big fan of the LCA, I am not a big fan of the JF-17 either. JF-17 has the same ground to cover. Kaveri program itself is going favourably, it simply has lot it's utility in the LCA program. It will be used in other programs instead.

Only IOC specs call for 6G limit. Once IOC is achieved, the flight envelope will be opened for 8G limit. The 8G limit is not due to structural integrity but engine limitations.

Even if the IAF chief gave LCA a 3++ gen label, it is no different for JF-17. It just demonstrates that a Mirage-2000/F-16B52 level aircraft is not "advanced" enough for IAF's standards. The reason why LCA Mk1 will end up being used as trainers after 2020.

As a matter of fact LCA Mk1 is still much more advanced than what JF-17 will be in its block 2 upgrade. Overall, LCA's future growth is well funded while JF-17's future will depend heavily on exports to other countries which will justify China spending a 10 Billion yen in upgrading it since AESA and the works isn't something PAF will be able to afford for as many as 100 Block 3 aircraft.

Lastly, the "junk" fighter got IOC within PAF in february 2008, In china, in november 2006.
Your IOC was no different from our Feb 2011 IOC. As a matter of fact, JF-17 at IOC was simply a flying shell. A basic aircraft without any war fighting equipment. Looking at the delays with Block 2, both aircraft may end up receiving FOC at a similar time, even though JF-17 apparently received IOC half a decade ago.
 

ersakthivel

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arguing you is a waste of time, have seen it in another thread (s), you can satisfy your ego anyway you like

Peace :)

You can't even stand the full quote of the ACM means you are not an angel for argument either.

So instead arguing with me read the following quote of ACM to your heart's content,

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories889.htm

Air Chief Marshal Naik described the LCA as a Mig 21++, closer to Gripen in its Mark II development.
A Mig 21 is a very old platform, with limited flying time and onboard missiles.

LCA, a fourth generation aircraft, is three times as powerful and can carry modern precision missiles for both air to air and air to ground missions.

LCA also has ultramodern quadruplex digital fly by wire controls, a glass cockpit, sensors, multi mode radar and relaxed static stability. In addition, it can fly supersonic at all altitudes.

In fact, pilots flying the LCA are happy at its performance. "It is small and tight but more comfortable, powerful and fun than a Mig 21," said one test pilot
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2013/07/a-bird-in-hand-induct-tejas-mark-i-into.html

Firstly, as testified by the IAF test pilots who have flown the Tejas through more than a thousand hours of flight-testing, the current version of the fighter, i.e. the Tejas Mark I, is already a world-class fighter that has achieved most performance landmarks that the IAF had demanded. It flies at Mach 1.6 (about 2,000 kmph), a speed that the IAF is satisfied with. Its state-of-the-art quadruplex digital flight control system makes it a maneuverable and easy-to-fly fighter, unlike the unforgiving MiG-21 that it is slated to replace. The Tejas has not had a single accident so far, testifying to the stability of its design.

Another key measure of a fighter's capability is the Angle of Attack (AoA) it can achieve. The higher the AoA, the more lift that is generated, allowing a fighter to get airborne at slower speeds from short airstrips, e.g. aircraft carriers. The IAF had demanded an AoA of 26 degrees for the Tejas. The Tejas has already been tested to 24 degrees, and is on course to achieve that target.

Says Air Commodore (Retd) Parvez Khokhar, who was for years the chief test pilot of the Tejas programme: "The Tejas Mark I is far superior to the MiG-21 fleet that the IAF would have to operate to the end of this decade. In key respects, it is a better fighter than even the Mirage 2000. The Tejas Mark I should enter the IAF's combat fleet in larger numbers and the Tejas Mark II scaled down. This would allow the air force to retire the MiG-21 fleet sooner."
So now you can sleep in peace about What key personnel in IAF think about tejas mk-1 itself. And don't need to disturb your peace of mind arguing with me.
 
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Dazzler

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You can't even stand the full quote of the ACM means you are not an angel for argument either.

So instead arguing with me read the following quote of ACM to your heart's content,

..:: India Strategic ::. Indian Air Force: LCA: Delayed but still a Milestone Capability



Broadsword: A bird in the hand: induct Tejas Mark I into the IAF in larger numbers



So now you can sleep in peace about What key personnel in IAF think about tejas mk-1 itself. And don't need to disturb your peace of mind arguing with me.
dont waste your breathe mate, i m not falling ;)
 

Defcon 1

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sipri database lists 60 operational, i dont feel comfortable comparing a yet to be operational with an operational aircraft. When its operational, will debate then
Sipri database is wrong in this respect. The widely accepted figure for production JF17 is still 40-50 aircraft with 34(2 squadrons) ready. Another thing, FOC still hasn't been given to JF17 as all the weapons still haven't been integrated, including Sd10
 

Dazzler

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Sipri database is wrong in this respect. The widely accepted figure for production JF17 is still 40-50 aircraft with 34(2 squadrons) ready. Another thing, FOC still hasn't been given to JF17 as all the weapons still haven't been integrated, including Sd10
Goodness!

SIPRI database is an informed think tank with valuable insight and proper verification for what they publish.
 

Defcon 1

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Goodness!

SIPRI database is an informed think tank with valuable insight and proper verification for what they publish.
Why don't you ask the general opinion of your informed friends before coming back here? no more than 40-50 JF17s have been produced. Check with your friends before replying.
 

Dazzler

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Why don't you ask the general opinion of your informed friends before coming back here? no more than 40-50 JF17s have been produced. Check with your friends before replying.
i dont feel the need to ask them when i know myself how many are in service
 

Dazzler

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Then thats a disagreement we will have to live with.
Fair enough, lets agree to disagree, :)

By the way, first batch of block-2 (20+ aircraft) is being readied as i write this, there are certain changes including new EW, avionics and datalink improvement (link-11 and 16 compatiblity done by KARF) radar tweaks done to KLJ-7 at KARF and offcourse the IFR but no info on IRST.

here is something, GIDS satellite guided bomb, Takbir

 
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Dazzler

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ALR-400 rwr with LPI detection capability, replaced KJ-8602A rwr in jf-17




Bringing maximum survivability in today's operating theatres;

ALR-400 has been designed to ensuremaximum survivability in today's complexhigh density environment by means ofimproved situation awareness in thepresence of an increasing number andsophistication of radar systems. ALR-400performs with complex waveforms such asfrequency agile pulse-Doppler radars,in high pulse densities and detecting faintdistant signals in the presence of strongnearby transmitters. Indra's radar warningreceiver is suited for all missions, for bothlow altitude - short range and high altitude- long range engagements

Incorporating the latest wide-band digital technology;

ALR-400 incorporates proven leading edgewide band digital reception. High speeddigitization techniques and sophisticatedparallel process algorithms addressing bothreal time and frequency domainsallow for precise minimal false alarm pulse to pulse parameter measurements.The high processing throughput ensuresperformances in high pulse densities aswell as keeping a low latency for rapidresponse and thus effectively supportingcountermeasures. This technology results in a simpler architecture, providingoutstanding performances and maximisingthe probability of intercept while givingaway the need for any collaborative narrowband receivers or dedicated devices

Built on a proven, high reliability and flexible COTS based open architecture;

Through a reduced parts count andan intensive use of COTS, includingprogrammable processors, combined witha rapid COTS insertion approach, ALR-400has an improved reliability, low life cyclecosts and enhanced supportability. An openarchitecture provides for modular isolatedstandard interfaces, such as MIL-STD-1553B, communications serial port, USB,ARINC-429 and 100BaseT fast ethernet.The radar warner processor can host thedefence aid computer (DAC) functionenabling control and integration,by means of its multiple Interfaces, ofinfrared, electronic attack and decoycountermeasures as well as missile andlaser warning. Its modular approach andaircraft network software independencerenders ALR-400 with unprecedentedscalability for evolving threats and minimalchange cross-platform compatibility alreadyproven on board:

EF-18 fighterTIGER attack helicopterC-295 cargo and maritime patrol aircraft A400M transport aircraftSuper Puma transport helicopterChinook transport helicopterMirage F-1 fighterB-200 transport aircraftF-27 transport aircraftC-101 training aircraftCougar transport helicopterCH53 Transport HelicopterNH90 Multipurpose Helicopter


Equipment sovereignty supported by ground testing and threat library management system;

ALR-400 can be supported with Indraground support test, post flight analysis,and threat library management systems.Indra's electronic warfare ground supportsystems provide end testing, complete reprogramming of separately loadable userdata files, library generation andevaluation, as well as detailed post-missionanalysis tools for recorded data down tointra-pulse level. Indra can thus provide full equipment sovereignty, allowing end usersto operate, maintain and upgrade ALR-400independently


Main feature;

Effective early warning in modern scenariosWide band digital reception and processingtechnologyPulse to pulse frequency measurement,including intra-pulse modulationcharacteristicsMulti continuous wave scenarios and LPIradar detection capabilities Reduced part count and intensive useof COTSImproved reliability, low life cycle costs andenhanced supportabilityOpen architecture with modular isolatedstandard interfacesControl and integration of a full self-protection suite Emitter library, mission file and flight storeddata upload and downloadFull equipment sovereignty, allowing endusers to independently operate, maintainand upgrade

 

Defcon 1

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Fair enough, lets agree to disagree, :)

By the way, first batch of block-2 (20+ aircraft) is being readied as i write this, there are certain changes including new EW, avionics and datalink improvement (link-11 and 16 compatiblity done by KARF) radar tweaks done to KLJ-7 at KARF and offcourse the IFR but no info on IRST.

here is something, GIDS satellite guided bomb, Takbir

Readied?? Even testing is not over. I read statement of some senior PAF official saying that testing of IFR will be done by late summer of 2013. We don't know if there are any further tests. I am sure you read it as well.

more importantly, forget blk II, where is the third squadron?
 
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Armand2REP

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Goodness!

SIPRI database is an informed think tank with valuable insight and proper verification for what they publish.
No they aren't, they publish deals from any source they find whether it is verified or not.
 

p2prada

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No. SIPRI's information is quite reliable and info is also provided by European govt sources.

JF-17 deliveries of 61 may be true, but that only comprises the Chinese supply of fuselage, engines and other parts. The rest of the aircraft will still have to be manufactured in Pakistan and then assembled. Considering 61 were transferred to PAF up and over the first 50 which were 8 LSPs and 42 SPs, the remaining 11 may be the ones being manufactured as we speak. SIPRI's information is correct only up to 2012 for obvious reasons. So 61 by the end of 2012 is quite realistic.

Anyway, while I don't know the status of No. 4 Squadron, or whether it is raised or not, all I know is that the 50 aircraft are ready, but they don't have enough pilots for them while Block 2, ie 51 and beyond are still being assembled in Kamra.
 

p2prada

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Is there no active seeker on the missile?

The lack of one doessn't make it an anti-ship missile, it makes it a land attack missile as I had originally claimed.

A 50m CEP for satellite guidance gives it roughly the same capability as what the Russians had in the '80s.
 

sayareakd

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If this is carrier killer for Pakistan (made by China)



and this is Chinese carrier killer (for Chinese military)



them i must say carrier means different thing to China and Pakistan or that Chinese have fooled Pakistanis...........:rofl:
 

sayareakd

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I guess the Chinese got tired from the constant whining of the Pakis over India aquiring the Vik, so they labeled this sh!t as a "Carrier Killer" and handed over this lollypop to the Pakis to keep them happy :truestory:
Pakistanis being Pakis are jumping on each other with excitement, because of this lollipop.
 

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