LCA Tejas vs JF-17 Thunder

sayareakd

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You need to think about why it always happen.
India needs a revolution.
I know that, but it is not as if we will never induct LCA, as said by you. LCA induction is matter of time now. If you see the fight update, many of the aircrafts are flying.

It was learning experience for us, unlike in JF 17, which was put to production within 1000 days of first prototype.
 

farhan_9909

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LCA will never be inducted rather would serve as a technology demonstrator for the Mk2.

inducting 40 of them are more like inducting them for training purpose and studying purpose..atleast the mk1 would never be used in a war other than for providing CAS role against moaists and kashmir insurgents

i dont know why you guys not ordered k-8p instead.would have saved you alot of money and ofcourse timeaswell
 

ersakthivel

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LCA will never be inducted rather would serve as a technology demonstrator for the Mk2.

inducting 40 of them are more like inducting them for training purpose and studying purpose..atleast the mk1 would never be used in a war other than for providing CAS role against moaists and kashmir insurgents

i dont know why you guys not ordered k-8p instead.would have saved you alot of money and ofcourse timeaswell
you are never going to grow up, Do you think GOI will throw the 40 GE-F-404 IN 20 and 100 odd GE-f-414 IN S 6 engines in to the Arabian Sea?

First please pray for the pilots of the non operation ejection seat JF-17 , as IAF prepares to close down the Mig-21 fleet with LCAs within five or six years , you will have a lot to worry about JF-17 reliability in the coming days.

You need to think about why it always happen.
India needs a revolution.
We can do very well without great dictator revolutions and great leap forward with killing 20 million citizens in in Great Red Famine,

So Thank you very much,

We don't need your prescription of revolution, We got enough to do without it.
 
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farhan_9909

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you are never going to grow up, Do you think GOI will throw the 40 GE-F-404 IN 20 and 100 odd GE-f-414 IN S 6 engines in to the Arabian Sea?
I said mk1 would serve as a technology demonstrator

Not sure about mk2..might be inducted in large numbers
 

ersakthivel

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I said mk1 would serve as a technology demonstrator

Not sure about mk2..might be inducted in large numbers
No tech demo ,

go to LCA Tejas -IV thread here, It's specs are closer to Grippen C/D , F-C/D specs.

Tejas mk-2 will match grippen NG specs, So you can't call MK-1 tech demo by any standard . Then most of PAF will be below trainer level if we use the same analogy.
 

farhan_9909

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No tech demo ,

go to LCA Tejas -IV thread here, It's specs are closer to Grippen C/D , F-C/D specs.

Tejas mk-2 will match grippen NG specs, So you can't call MK-1 tech demo by any standard . Then most of PAF will be below trainer level if we use the same analogy.
Might be but on paper.

Gripen is a proven fighter and is as good as the block 52 f-16.

We will see what the lca mk2 is upto when developed.because the LCA mk1 was suppose to have 5ton payload but now less than 4 ton.and 5.5t empty weight now 6.5t.

beside this by than we will have JFT 3 in production aswell.A fighter that would be almost the size of medium class fighter with 11 hardpoints,more than 16t MTOW.ws-13b with 121kn thrust and much more.

But again JFT 3 is still years away
 

ersakthivel

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Might be but on paper.

Gripen is a proven fighter and is as good as the block 52 f-16.

We will see what the lca mk2 is upto when developed.because the LCA mk1 was suppose to have 5ton payload but now less than 4 ton.and 5.5t empty weight now 6.5t.

beside this by than we will have JFT 3 in production aswell.A fighter that would be almost the size of medium class fighter with 11 hardpoints,more than 16t MTOW.ws-13b with 121kn thrust and much more.

But again JFT 3 is still years away
Not on paper it demonstrated it on the skies in Aeroindia -2013, and on the Goa skies in hot trials.

No amount of hard points is going to help JFT a inferior design fighter ,

because tejas mk-1 has a higher powered radar ,and lower clean config RCS, higher thrust to weight ratio than JFT in any configuration,

So tejas will always see first shoot first, What would a JFT pilot do when he cannot get a radar lock on LCA tejas mk-1 when tejas fires it's BVRs against the JFT.

And much worse with lower power to weight ratio and high empty weight JFT does not have the kinematics to escape as well.

1.Original Sustained turn rate requirement for Tejas was 17 deg per second ,

now ,

It is 20 degree per second,(with 6Gs and AOA restriction of about 20 deg it does 18 deg per second plus, So once the FCS is fully opened up to 24-26 deg AOA and full 8G turn capability it can do 20 deg per second as Grippen C/D)

2. The original top speed requirement was mach 1.5,

now,

It has done mach 1.6 and it's design top speed to be achieved at FOC is mach 1.8( in MK-2 version it is going to be Mach 2plus)

3. It's original max take off weight is 12.5 tons


now,

Tejas mk-1 lifts 13.2 tons at take off,

4. Originally it was to fire 60 Kg 40 Km range BVRs only,

now,

MK-1 t can fire any BVR with any weight that can hit target at 120 Km + range,


5. It was not meant to have OBORG, 120 Km + range trackig radar and in flight refuelling probe,

now it has,

6. Original Instantaneous turn rate was supposed to be 30 deg per second equal to Mirage ,

now,

According to test pilots it handles sharper than Mirage(Since it has ten percent more thrust to weight ratio and even lower wing loading than Mirage-2000 , it will have a much better instantaneous turn rate than Mirage exceeding the original design goal),


7. Originally it was meant to fly forever with 84Kn engine with a max thrust to Weight ratio of 1.07(half fuel, two BVR missiles+empty weight taken for weight/ Max thrust )

now

Thanks to AMCA program it will have 100 KN K-10 as a mid life upgrade,

8. originally it was to have a weapon load of 4 tons,

now ,

it will carry close to 3600 Kg plus with full fuel on take off, and once 400 Kg weighing telemetry instruments are removed , it may carry design weapon load as well



9.it's original sea level top speed was to be mach 1,

now ,

It does mach 1.1

10. Originally it was slated to fly with doppler radar,

now

In mk-2 it is supposed to have ASEA radar.

So a lot of things about tejas has changed but only for the better,

Now it's specs are quite comparable to F-16 C/D and grippen C/D in Mk-1 version.

In mk-2 tejas is supposed to have a TWR of 1.27 equal to RAFALE TWR and 5 ton pay load.


With an clean config RCS many times less than any other PAF fighter , it can shoot them out of the sky like pigeons without even being tracked by their radar with 120 plus Km range BVR any day any time.

So whatever that has changed for Tejas in ASR has changed for the better only, SO no worry about gain in empty weight.
 
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wodoo

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Jf17 is not produced in 1000days. It is based on china whole aero industry infrastructure。the learning curve started from 50s. Somehow I feel India has fundamental issue and not just a learning curve issue in many industrial areas

I know that, but it is not as if we will never induct LCA, as said by you. LCA induction is matter of time now. If you see the fight update, many of the aircrafts are flying.

It was learning experience for us, unlike in JF 17, which was put to production within 1000 days of first prototype.
 

farhan_9909

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As per the official interview of General Javed..the klj-7 now has a range of 130km against a fighter size target(5m2)

Stop stop stop
please prove me how LCA has a better thrust to weight ratio than JFT..
thanks in advance for proving so.also you should thank me in advance for proving you wrong later

because tejas mk-1 has a higher powered radar ,and lower clean config RCS, higher thrust to weight ratio than JFT in any configuration,
 

bose

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Jf17 is not produced in 1000days. It is based on china whole aero industry infrastructure。the learning curve started from 50s. Somehow I feel India has fundamental issue and not just a learning curve issue in many industrial areas
It is a lie... JF [Junk Fighter] - 17 was based on Levi design and Russian engine ... come back to us when you can build a descent aircraft engine of your own... BTW no prizes for Ctrl C & Ctrl V....
 

ersakthivel

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As per the official interview of General Javed..the klj-7 now has a range of 130km against a fighter size target(5m2)

Stop stop stop
please prove me how LCA has a better thrust to weight ratio than JFT..
thanks in advance for proving so.also you should thank me in advance for proving you wrong later
that is the problem mate.

Most of the PLAF anf PAF fighter has a RCS of 5 sq meter,

But Tejas will have less than half of that in air to air mode.

thats what I meant that tejas will always see first and shoot first against any PLAF or PAf fighter in operation.

What is the TWR of JFT officially , give me the weight break up?

Even if I stop immediately , no amount of TWR will save any PLAF or PAF fighter from being shot first by tejas mk-1, sorry for saying that.

With 95 percent composite skin, and one of the lowest clean config RCS of 4.5th gen fighters tejas will always enjoy this advantage over any other fighter presently in operation in PAF or PLAF . it is a physical fact.

not for nothing ADA spent two decades tinkering with it.

According to ADA chief Tejas has closed the 40 year R&D gap between India and western fighter making nations in a single leap.it is true. And that was the original aim of the project.

not just make a fighter plane to replace MIG-21,

develop,

Relaxed static stablity based Fly by wire FCS controlled fighter,

with composite tech and

one of the lowest RCS with

a TWR of more than one

to be on par with the latest western offerings.

And they have delivered.
 
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sayareakd

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It is a lie... JF [Junk Fighter] - 17 was based on Levi design and Russian engine ... come back to us when you can build a descent aircraft engine of your own... BTW no prizes for Ctrl C & Ctrl V....
No it was based on failed Russian design, which was purchased by China, they too have put it in failed category, then Pakistan which was under sanctioned, negotiated for its development with China. It was given new name JF 17 (Junk fighter 17 or something associated with it). Pakistan tried very hard to get Western avionics on it but failed.
 

sayareakd

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Jf17 is not produced in 1000days. It is based on china whole aero industry infrastructure。the learning curve started from 50s. Somehow I feel India has fundamental issue and not just a learning curve issue in many industrial areas
yeah your engine development speaks volume about your aero industry infrastructure. All the modern aircrafts have taken longer time, only junk fighter has this record breaking less then 1000 days from the first prototype to production record. BTW they had one major design change in between those less then 1000 days.
 

bose

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No it was based on failed Russian design, which was purchased by China, they too have put it in failed category, then Pakistan which was under sanctioned, negotiated for its development with China. It was given new name JF 17 (Junk fighter 17 or something associated with it). Pakistan tried very hard to get Western avionics on it but failed.
Please see the audacity of the Chinese boasting of Junk Fighter!!! Their own Air Force has discarded the Junk Fighter"¦
 

Neil

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@ ersakthivel bro...how reliable are those russian engines on jf17...?? heard those things go off mid air ...happened to su30 in mid air but thanks to dual engines ... saved the day....!!
 

farhan_9909

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sometime it is really funny comparing dream with reality.

but still people do.funny they must be
 

sayareakd

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sometime it is really funny comparing dream with reality.

but still people do.funny they must be
yeah something really funny.

You guys inducted the plane, even before weapons trial.

Even before FOC.

It can happen only in Pak- Pakistan.
 

bose

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@ ersakthivel bro...how reliable are those russian engines on jf17...?? heard those things go off mid air ...happened to su30 in mid air but thanks to dual engines ... saved the day....!!
The Russian engine RD33 if I am not wrong were the same engine on MIG 29 in IAF, those are now being replaced by better efficient engines with the same upgrade program... Putting those on the single engine fighter are risky... but they have no options as they cannot make their own engines and Russia will not part with their latest engines because they will be illegally copied by Chinese...
 

farhan_9909

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yeah something really funny.

You guys inducted the plane, even before weapons trial.

Even before FOC.

It can happen only in Pak- Pakistan.
process of induction is fast.i would have to browse the chinese forums where someone posted and translated into english that alone pt-06 in china has completed slightly more than 1000hours flight testing.

this is 1 prototype and equal to half of your total LCA flight testing..imagine the 6 prototypes extensive testing than
 

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