LCA Tejas vs JF-17 Thunder

[ersakthivel]

but a vertical loop is nothing specially..even trainer aircraft does this

but can tejas perform as good as JFT has done in the above video?

IT is now very much confirmed from the janes source posted above of fully fbw planned in production variant

and majority of the 4th generation fighters are only unstable in pitch like jft which can be confirmed from even the older specs on pac

General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon

Type: F-16A
Function: fighter
Year: 1976
Crew: 1
Engines: 1 * 105.7kN P&W F100-PW-220
Wing Span: 10.00 m
Length: 15.03 m
Height: 5.09 m
Wing Area: 27.90 m2
Empty Weight: 7387 kg
Max.Weight: 17010 kg
Max. Speed: Mach 2.05
Ceiling: 16750 m
Max. Range: 3900 km
Armament: 1*g 20 mm 9276 kg payload
Unit cost: 20 million USD
Type: F-16C/D Fighting Falcon
Country: USA
Export: Bahrain/Greece/Israel/Egypt/NZ/UAE/Singapore/South Korea/Oman/Chile
Function: Multirole Fighter
In Service date: 1979
Crew: 1
Engines: 1 x 131,6 kN (29590 lbs) General Electric F110
Wing Span: 10.00 m
Wing area: 27.88 m2
Wing Aspect Ratio: 3.09
Length: 15.03 m
Height: 5.03 m

Empty Weight: 8581 kg
Internal Fuel Weight: 3105 kg
Max.Weight: 19187 kg
Maximum Speed: Mach 2.0
Ferry Range: 4215 km

Combat Radius: 900 km
Internal Armament: 1*g 20 mm
G-limits: 9/-3.5
Maximum instantenous turn rate: 26 degrees/second
Maximum sustained turn rate: 18 degrees/second
TWR(50% fuel, 2 EM A2A missile, 2 IR A2A missile): ~1.26:1
TWR(100% fuel, 2 EM A2A missile, 2 IR A2A missile): ~1.1:1

---------------------------------------------------------------

17 deg sustained turn rate is the initial ASR set for LCA mk-1 just 1 degree less than F-16 block C/D.

1.Even with 6G and 20 deg AOA limitation the LCA has already completed a horizontal loop in Aeroindia demo within 23 seconds. That comes to a STR of close to 16 deg with the limitations of partially opened flight envelope.We don't know whether the plane was stretched even to this partial limit of 6Gs and 20 Deg AOA in that demo.

Also with the same 6G 20 deg AOA restriction it completed a vertical loop within 20 seconds in AeroIndia 2013 ,meaning it had a STR of close to 18 deg in vertical loop. In a recent fly past the Su-35 too completed the powered vertical loop within 18 seconds. Once again We don't know whether the plane was stretched even to this partial limit of 6Gs and 20 Deg AOA in that demo.

Recent reports in a blog indicate that LCA mk-1 has achieved a Sustained Turn Rate to the IAf's satisfaction even with 1 ton extra empty weight than the original target of 5470 kg. SO it must have improved over the aeroindia2013 demo in a substantial manner.

So in no way can the initial airframe design can be called draggy.

Also the TWR ratio of LCA with 50 percent fuel is 1.07. Same for F-16 is 1.25. So with even lower thrust to weight ratio than F-16 C/D , LCA has managed to pull closer to the F-16 C/D .

In mk-2 it will only further improve, with weight reduction due to more composite percentage and a 20 percent higher thrust engine in GE F414 IN S 6. Since the length of fuselage is going to be expanded by 0.5 meter only it won't add to much empty weight either.

Also with an empty weight of 8.5 ton F-16 C/D carries 3.1 ton fuel.

LCA mk-1 with it's empty weight of 6.4 tons carries 2.5 ton fuel.SO LCA mk-1 has a close to 10 percent better fuel fraction ratio than the F-16 C/ D. Indicating it won't suffer much in range in an air to air configuration of 2 ton air to air missile load which is it's primary role.

But by having a significantly lower wing loading than the F-16 C/D Tejas mk-1 will have a much better Instantaneous turn Rate than the 26 degree given for F-16 C/ D.

Even the initial ASR given for LCA by MSD Woollen indicates a requirement of 30 deg maximum attainable in the ADA website.

So in the all important high off bore sight WVR missile launching capacity based on Instantaneous Turn Rate , it will be better than the F-16 C/D, just going by the low wing loading factor alone.. But needs citation ofcourse.

So even the initial ASR given for LCA mk-1 was close to F-16s.

So the the all composite, RSS in all axes LCA mk-1 can beat the all metal Non RSS in all axes JF-17 by a comfortable margin in all specs,

 

[wodoo]

I think JF17 is enough to against LCA. China only sell weapons a little bit ahead than the necessaries of PAK. If LCA is very good, China will sell or give J10 to PAK immediately.

a scientist from ADA said Tejas is capable and comparable to j-10 . is it true ?

 

[maomao]

I think JF17 is enough to against LCA. China only sell weapons a little bit ahead than the necessaries of PAK. If LCA is very good, China will sell or give J10 to PAK immediately.

Dafcult to komprhand, but will tel ya that chinese quality and products are shyt that's why they have ordered SU-35s from Russia and selling chpeapass Junk Fighter to pakis. LCA specs speaks from itself and everything is history

 

[Dazzler]

Comparison began, tell me is LCA inducted by IAF? someone with a timeframe please step up and say it will soon.

Its been ages !

 

[Dazzler]

Have you seen the facility that builds JF17's in Pakistan?
Of course not. Its the size of a small town. How long will it take HAL to build a production facility capable of reliably delivering between 15 and 20 airframes - OF CONSISTENT QUALITY GRADE - annually? 3 more years? 4?

How long till the IAF has 2 squadrons of trained pilots oriented to the LCA with significant flying hours under their belts? All the LCA has now are test pilots... How many IAF pilots are qualified to fly LCA into combat? 0. How many do the PAF have for the JF17? over 40 at last count.

That's the general problem with your aviation industry. Too concerned with the bells and whistles to focus on serial production of an airframe flying consistently, regularly and safely that can be upgraded with superior indigenous systems in time.

JF17 block II, (roughly equivalent to LCA MK1 plus the IFR probe) will be entering production soon, probably before LCA does.

The difference between them being JF17 block II will be rolling off a complete production line that's been producing and maintaining JF17's for years, being flown by many more qualified, experienced - on this type - pilots it into combat.

LCA Mk1 will be coming off a brand new, incomplete, inefficient(HAL) production line, run by personnel - from production manager to mechanic - who don't have the equivalent experience of their Pakistani counterparts, being flown by pilots who haven't been qualified on the jet for long.

A little less hubris and a bit more actual production would do your aviation industry a world of good.

its known as "Thunder City" and is huge.. also included are Radar and avionics manufacturing facilities, Mirage and F-6,F-7 Rebuild factory etc..


here is the video of Thunder city

AIRCRAFT MANUFACTURING FACTORY on Vimeo

avionics production factory

AVIONICS PRODUCTION FACTORY on Vimeo



Mirage rebuild factory

MIRAGE REBUILD FACTORY on Vimeo

 

[ersakthivel]

Comparison began, tell me is LCA inducted by IAF? someone with a timeframe please step up and say it will soon.

Its been ages !

Serial production has begun and engine aiframe orders for various vendors were already given. And SP-1, SP-2 are under construction.

And 100 GE-F-414- In S6 engine orders for general electric has already been given for mk-2.

SO regardless of whether FOC is finished or not IAF knows the safety and capabilities of the tejas .

 

[farhan_9909]

PAF has changed the plan and now wants upto 200-250 JFT in different batches

most important the air refueling at ground level are completedf and at the end of this summer.PAF air refueling trials from IL-76 will be done

 

[wodoo]

You don't need to dispute chinese quality. Do you know why China only give JF17 to PAK? It is because JF17 bet LCA at least in the near future. Once LCA is better than JF17, china will give J10, even J20. When you say JF17 is bad, you need to think your LCA is worse than JF17. PLA has better quality products, J10/J16/J20/J31..

Dafcult to komprhand, but will tel ya that chinese quality and products are shyt that's why they have ordered SU-35s from Russia and selling chpeapass Junk Fighter to pakis. LCA specs speaks from itself and everything is history

 

[maomao]

You don't need to dispute chinese quality. Do you know why China only give JF17 to PAK? It is because JF17 bet LCA at least in the near future. Once LCA is better than JF17, china will give J10, even J20. When you say JF17 is bad, you need to think your LCA is worse than JF17. PLA has better quality products, J10/J16/J20/J31..

Chinese quality is world renowned JUNK! Even chinese don't wanna use chinese products....best example is your JF-17! LCA uses best tech from various nations that makes it superior to chinese junk which china desposes into pakistan! LCA has received IOC and will be inducted into IAF, when will JF-17 get inducted into PLAAF if it is better than LCA, though china is ordering SU-35s instead of producing their own, which clearly means that they know they produce shyt engines and a/cs?

 

[wodoo]

The key is that chinese believes the "JUNK" JF17 can bet your LCA. It is doesn't matter if JF17 is a junk. It is important that your LCA is worse than a junk.

Chinese quality is world renowned JUNK! Even chinese don't wanna use chinese products....best example is your JF-17! LCA uses best tech from various nations that makes it superior to chinese junk which china desposes into pakistan! LCA has received IOC and will be inducted into IAF, when will JF-17 get inducted into PLAAF if it is better than LCA, though china is ordering SU-35s instead of producing their own, which clearly means that they know they produce shyt engines and a/cs?

 

[SajeevJino]

You don't need to dispute chinese quality. Do you know why China only give JF17 to PAK? It is because JF17 bet LCA at least in the near future. Once LCA is better than JF17, china will give J10, even J20. When you say JF17 is bad, you need to think your LCA is worse than JF17. PLA has better quality products, J10/J16/J20/J31..

Does any country apart from Pakistan Shown Interest buying your JF 17 ..

You have 5th gen Fighters then why you are looking for 4++ gen Fighter from Russians ...

 

[wodoo]

Is it important? Did you ask yourself if LCA is ready for anyone even IAF?

Chinese has 5th prototypes. But they know it doesn't mean that Chinese owns all advanced technologies. They want to learn somethings from this most advanced Russian bird: engine and structure. They pay for learning.

Indian has more chances to learn from others. But they can't. So sad.

Does any country apart from Pakistan Shown Interest buying your JF 17 ..

You have 5th gen Fighters then why you are looking for 4++ gen Fighter from Russians ...

 

[SajeevJino]

Is it important? Did you ask yourself if LCA is ready for anyone even IAF?

Chinese has 5th prototypes. But they know it doesn't mean that Chinese owns all advanced technologies. They want to learn somethings from this most advanced Russian bird: engine and structure. They pay for learning.

Ho can you Judge your JF beat our LCA ..when no LCA is Operational

You says that JF offered to only PAF ..I'm asking to you apart from PAF does any nation shown Interest ..Just say Yes or No ..

Indian has more chances to learn from others. But they can't. So sad.

Su 30 MKI is an answer for your Question

 

[wodoo]

That's enough. Chinese know LCA can't be real ready in 10 years. So they offer JF17 to PAF. If LCA is real better than JF17 and is ready now, I believe China will offer J10 immediately.

It is cheap to say any nation shown interest to JF17. I know the answer is YES. But who care.

I don't think India did major contribution in Su30MKI except money. At least you didn't get same ability which chinese learns from su27 ans used on J11.

Ho can you Judge your JF beat our LCA ..when no LCA is Operational

You says that JF offered to only PAF ..I'm asking to you apart from PAF does any nation shown Interest ..Just say Yes or No ..




Su 30 MKI is an answer for your Question

 

[SajeevJino]

That's enough. Chinese know LCA can't be real ready in 10 years. So they offer JF17 to PAF. If LCA is real better than JF17 and is ready now, I believe China will offer J10 immediately.

LCA MK11 Ready in next 5 to 7 years where LCA MK1 roar the Sky in 2015 for sure ..

Do you know they need J20/31 to face the LCA MK11

I think PAF already have some J10's

It is cheap to say any nation shown interest to JF17. I know the answer is YES. But who care.

source Pls

I don't think India did major contribution in Su30MKI except money. At least you didn't get same ability which chinese learns from su27 ans used on J11.

Apart from all SU 30 versions MKI is best

 

[wodoo]

Trust me, India has no way to finish them according to your plan. LCA is a black hole and finally will be cancelled. You will never see a day to replace mig21 with LCA.

Will you feel good if one day USA sell you a F22 or F35? You cannot make MKI by yourself. You only assemble them .I don't know where the proud come from.

Do you know some countries even imported J7 from China? I told you interest is cheap.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAC/PAC_JF-17_Thunder
Egypt is currently discussing a deal with Pakistan to co-produce the JF-17 for the Egyptian Air Force.[117] The Azerbaijani Air Forces has negotiated with China for the purchase of several dozen JF-17s, worth approximately $16–$18 million each.[118][119][120] The Sudanese Air Force is also reported to be negotiating for 12 aircraft.[121] The Air Force of Zimbabwe reportedly ordered 12 JF-17 in 2004,[122] but there are no current sources that confirm payment or intent of delivery.[123][124][125] In 2008 several other countries including Bangladesh, Iran and Nigeria were identified as potential buyers.[4][126] In early 2010 it was reported that China had been in talks with around 5 to 6 countries on the JF-17, some of whom had sent air force pilots to test-fly the fighter.[127] Algeria, Argentina, Bangladesh, Myanmar, Egypt, Iran, Lebanon, Malaysia, Morocco, Nigeria, Sri Lanka and Uruguay showed interest in the fighter plane.[86][128]

 

[sayareakd]

Trust me, India has no way to finish them according to your plan. LCA is a black hole and finally will be cancelled. You will never see a day to replace mig21 with LCA.

we will remember your words.

 

[aerokan]

Trust me, India has no way to finish them according to your plan. LCA is a black hole and finally will be cancelled. You will never see a day to replace mig21 with LCA.

True to the standards, so said the Chinaman

 

[wodoo]

You need to think about why it always happen.
India needs a revolution.

we will remember your words.

 

[Defenceindia2010]

Trust me, India has no way to finish them according to your plan. LCA is a black hole and finally will be cancelled. You will never see a day to replace mig21 with LCA.

Will you feel good if one day USA sell you a F22 or F35? You cannot make MKI by yourself. You only assemble them .I don't know where the proud come from.

Do you know some countries even imported J7 from China? I told you interest is cheap.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAC/PAC_JF-17_Thunder
Egypt is currently discussing a deal with Pakistan to co-produce the JF-17 for the Egyptian Air Force.[117] The Azerbaijani Air Forces has negotiated with China for the purchase of several dozen JF-17s, worth approximately $16–$18 million each.[118][119][120] The Sudanese Air Force is also reported to be negotiating for 12 aircraft.[121] The Air Force of Zimbabwe reportedly ordered 12 JF-17 in 2004,[122] but there are no current sources that confirm payment or intent of delivery.[123][124][125] In 2008 several other countries including Bangladesh, Iran and Nigeria were identified as potential buyers.[4][126] In early 2010 it was reported that China had been in talks with around 5 to 6 countries on the JF-17, some of whom had sent air force pilots to test-fly the fighter.[127] Algeria, Argentina, Bangladesh, Myanmar, Egypt, Iran, Lebanon, Malaysia, Morocco, Nigeria, Sri Lanka and Uruguay showed interest in the fighter plane.[86][128]

Don't count your chickens before they hatch, their is a difference between reverse engineering and creating a complex platform when the nation has industrial challenges. LCA is not just an combat aircraft it is a story of triumph and selfless dedication of a nation and its technical establishment to gain knowledge which in its purest from is still the preserve of nation who pioneered aviation for example U.S.A, Russia, U.K, Europe, (this does not include China for obvious reasons), boasting about selling ripoffs to nations who have to settle for cheap, unsophisticated, easy to buy, non-battle tested platforms because of financial or political reasons is no great feat these machines are never tested against the best in the business because of the obvious result expected. No Chinese aircraft has ever entered a scenario where their machines had to go against comparative evaluation with fighter from more developed nations, nations are bribed to buy them simply because they were the cheapest of them all, given a better financial health these nation who buy Chinese equipment would no doubt go for battle tested platforms who have result to show in battle unlike Chinese equipment.

And as for your confusion about from where the proud comes from. Being proud is the result of collective achievement against all odds, this does not include boasting over ripoffs with MADE IN CHINA label stamped over them.

Stolen goods never give off the feeling of pride in any society they just enforce and reflect the inability of nations to innovate against all oddities.