LCA Tejas vs JF-17 Thunder

[gokussj9]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

In terms of relevance. LCA Mk2 isn't equivalent to a EF, Gripen NG or Rafale.

Since PLAAF and PAF won't be having EF,Gripen and Rafale(neither the technology), I think induction of LCA Mk2 considering these two regional air forces seems somewhat sensible in comparison with J-10 and JF-17 as we envisage two front war. This assuming India won;t be going to war with any EU countries or USA in future.

 

[p2prada]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

Since PLAAF and PAF won't be having EF,Gripen and Rafale(neither the technology), I think induction of LCA Mk2 considering these two regional air forces seems somewhat sensible in comparison with J-10 and JF-17 as we envisage two front war. This assuming India won;t be going to war with any EU countries or USA in future.

However, the difference is JF-17, J-10 are flying today while LCA Mk2 will come when the J-20 and J-31 will be flying.

Hence the threat perception has made a significant turn. Today our aircraft are better than what PLAAF has today. What we have planned for LCA Mk2 is better than what PLAAF has today. Tomorrow, our aircraft may end up being inferior to what PLAAF have.

That's why I posted,

Also note that MK2 will actually be inducted during that time, where the threat perception may be completely different.

Meaning, against threats like J-20 and J-31, even Rafale and EF will be obsolete. EF pilots have already claimed obsolescence against F-22 in BVR.

 

[gokussj9]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

However, the difference is JF-17, J-10 are flying today while LCA Mk2 will come when the J-20 and J-31 will be flying.

Hence the threat perception has made a significant turn. Today our aircraft are better than what PLAAF has today. What we have planned for LCA Mk2 is better than what PLAAF has today. Tomorrow, our aircraft may end up being inferior to what PLAAF have.

That's why I posted,


Meaning, against threats like J-20 and J-31, even Rafale and EF will be obsolete. EF pilots have already claimed obsolescence against F-22 in BVR.

I concur. But by that time, we will also have FGFA I suppose.

 

[Austin]

@p2prada , From what i read Tejas Mk2 will be comparable to Gripen-NG in Aerodynamic property ,Flying Quality and Weapon System/Sensor etc......why do you says Tejas-Mk2 will not be as good as Gripen-NG , Any reason and data points ? Thanks

 

[Apollyon]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

Meaning, against threats like J-20 and J-31, even Rafale and EF will be obsolete. EF pilots have already claimed obsolescence against F-22 in BVR.

EF/Rafale will be obsolete against J-31 (with RD-93) ?

 

[Shirman]

^^^^^Even i don't agree on this one with p2prada......forget about J31 and J20 i doubt on so called Chinese Aesa and other avionics.....no doubt they will mature but they are a long shot compared to American, European and Russian avionics...... PakFA Su T-50 would be the next decade Rafale and Typhoon killer but even it needs Isreali avonics to make it comparable to f-35 level..... I am talking about the cockpit avionics and sensor fusion.......

 

[ADITYA MAYUKH]

If j 21 and j31 comes it doesn"t mean that j10 and jf 17 will be out of service and for them tejas is more than required

 

[santosh_g]

yes.. pakistan or china cant maintain all squadrons with J-20s and J-31s.. nearly or more than half of the squadrons will be having 4 and 4.5 gen aircrafts only.. and i dont think both the 5th gen fighters will be available before 2025 atleast for pakistan.. by that time china may have few fifth gen aircrafts, say one or two squadrons.

 

[santosh_g]

^^^^^Even i don't agree on this one with p2prada......forget about J31 and J20 i doubt on so called Chinese Aesa and other avionics.....no doubt they will mature but they are a long shot compared to American, European and Russian avionics...... PakFA Su T-50 would be the next decade Rafale and Typhoon killer but even it needs Isreali avonics to make it comparable to f-35 level..... I am talking about the cockpit avionics and sensor fusion.......

if i m not wrong cockpit will be designed by HAL for FGFA and russians will use them for their PAK-FA.

 

[farhan_9909]

@p2prada

If the JFT engine is replaced with something of 100kn thrust class would it be as good as F-16 in performance(manouveribility)

considering the fact that JFT and F-16 both share 90% identicle cropped delta wing design and rest of design similarities.

 

[abingdonboy]

My latest vid:

 

[p2prada]

@p2prada , From what i read Tejas Mk2 will be comparable to Gripen-NG in Aerodynamic property ,Flying Quality and Weapon System/Sensor etc......why do you says Tejas-Mk2 will not be as good as Gripen-NG , Any reason and data points ? Thanks

If we look at the IAF Chief's remarks during IOC-1, he said LCA Mk2 will fall short of Gripen NG.

In terms of raw data, LCA Mk1 was supposed to do a 17 deg STR and around 28-29deg ITR. F-16 does 20 deg STR, Mirage-2000 does 19 deg STR, Rafale, Gripen and EF are in the 21-22.5 deg STR range, MKI is in the 20-21 deg STR.

Compared to LCA's "goal spec" of 17, Mirage-III E does 15 deg, Mig-21 bison is also in that range. I don't know exact spec of that. Earliest variants of Mirage III and Mig-21 do something like 8 - 12 deg STR.

LCA Mk2 ASR was drawn up in order to achieve majority of Mk1s figures, which could not be achieved on the current airframe, mainly due to an underpowered engine.

NG is a different beast altogether. Apart from C already exceeding F-16 figures for STR, the NG may have higher performance specs with the newer F-414 engine. Even they are looking at a higher thrust rating for F-414, above the 98KN that's on the F-414G. I would say they are looking at the very same engine as the LCA's engine. The one that is not EDE, but also not EPE, but between the two. GE was trying to push the EPE on the Swedes though.

Along with that there is a large difference in payload capability, 7 tons vs 5 tons. The proposed NG weapons loadouts themselves show how good the final version of NG will really be. NG is supposed to have 10 hardpoints. Also, they have achieved 40-50% increased fuel loads over the C/D on just the Demo. That's a lot of fuel, something LCA Mk2 won't be able to match.

If they are planning on Gripen NG to carry 7 tons of payload, on a 7 ton airframe while carrying 3.3 - 3.5 tonnes of fuel, the airframe design itself is better than most other designs available. Meaning with just these three parameters, it has considerably exceeded the F-16 Block 52, which is an 8.5 tonne airframe carrying 3.1 tonnes of fuel and 7 tonnes of payload. On top of that it can fly better than the F-16 B52 while sucking up lesser amount of fuel.

Overall, the Swedes may have moved on from the IAF MRCA version to keep the aircraft more relevant. So that adds more to the NGs specs.

 

[p2prada]

if i m not wrong cockpit will be designed by HAL for FGFA and russians will use them for their PAK-FA.

Cockpits are of personal preferences of the air force.

IAF will have one design for FGFA while the Russians will use their own on PAKFA. So two cockpit designs exist for PAKFA.

EF/Rafale will be obsolete against J-31 (with RD-93) ?

As long as whatever they have planned as a second stage engine works out. With the RD-93 on J-31 and AL-31 on J-20, impossible.

^^^^^Even i don't agree on this one with p2prada......forget about J31 and J20 i doubt on so called Chinese Aesa and other avionics.....no doubt they will mature but they are a long shot compared to American, European and Russian avionics......

The Chinese run multiple R&D teams, unlike India. You never know when they may come out with something revolutionary.

PakFA Su T-50 would be the next decade Rafale and Typhoon killer but even it needs Isreali avonics to make it comparable to f-35 level.... I am talking about the cockpit avionics and sensor fusion.......

The Russians are way ahead compared to the Israelis in aviation. Even sensor fusion. Su-35 already has sensor fused avionics. Super MKI will be our first sensor fused fighter.

@p2prada

If the JFT engine is replaced with something of 100kn thrust class would it be as good as F-16 in performance(manouveribility)

considering the fact that JFT and F-16 both share 90% identicle cropped delta wing design and rest of design similarities.

Best of luck getting this 100KN engine. Getting it to fly on the JF and then certifying it. By then the aircraft itself will be obsolete.

 

[Austin]

Thanks P2P , Any official data on Tejas Mk2 payload , The Mk1 was suppose to carry payload of 4T but was reduced to 3.5 T due to weight issue iirc , So for Mk2 they are planning for 4T payload or more ?

 

[farhan_9909]

Best of luck getting this 100KN engine. Getting it to fly on the JF and then certifying it. By then the aircraft itself will be obsolete.

well as per chinese forums the pt-06 was refitted with ws-13a.

For both future JFT's and most important the j-31

 

[Shirman]

@p2prada Yes Russians may be superior to Israelis in avionics but neither them nor the Americans will sell them with FGFA or F-35 since both come with export variant tag ie:- the export model will differ from their own domestic model......Already there are talks about differentiation between Russian VVS PAK FA model and our so called FGFA model for export........Here companies like IAI and Elbit systems feel they can achieve a good business target by providing the stuff Ruskis don't offer on Su Fgfa and Americans on F-35 export variants.............

 

[Rahul Singh]

LCA Mk2 ASR was drawn up in order to achieve majority of Mk1s figures, which could not be achieved on the current airframe, mainly due to an underpowered engine.

And it called for a 90KN engine for that purpose. But now what MK-2 is getting is at least 9% more powerful F-414 INS6 rated at +98 KN. One can only imagine what impact it would have on STR and ITR when fact is taken into consideration that apart from more powerful engine MK-2 is also getting better aerodynamics and undergoing structural weight reduction.

 

[p2prada]

Thanks P2P , Any official data on Tejas Mk2 payload , The Mk1 was suppose to carry payload of 4T but was reduced to 3.5 T due to weight issue iirc , So for Mk2 they are planning for 4T payload or more ?

5 tonnes is official data.

Due to some extra requirements for strike capability.

well as per chinese forums the pt-06 was refitted with ws-13a.

For both future JFT's and most important the j-31

That doesn't say much. Even LCA will be tested with Kaveri in the next two years. Doesn't mean the program itself is successful.

We need production fighters with WS-13A.

@p2prada Yes Russians may be superior to Israelis in avionics but neither them nor the Americans will sell them with FGFA or F-35 since both come with export variant tag ie:- the export model will differ from their own domestic model......Already there are talks about differentiation between Russian VVS PAK FA model and our so called FGFA model for export........Here companies like IAI and Elbit systems feel they can achieve a good business target by providing the stuff Ruskis don't offer on Su Fgfa and Americans on F-35 export variants.............

The FGFA may have much better overall specs compared to PAKFA or vice versa. We don't know so we need to wait for more info.

Since the break up of the Union, "export" model no longer means "inferior" model.

Core tech on the FGFA will be Russian or Indian. Israelis may provide cockpit equipment from their HAL-Elbit JV and maybe some recce and targeting pods. The same that's on MKI today.

 

[p2prada]

And it called for a 90KN engine for that purpose. But now what MK-2 is getting is at least 9% more powerful F-414 INS6 rated at +98 KN. One can only imagine what impact it would have on STR and ITR when fact is taken into consideration that apart from more powerful engine MK-2 is also getting better aerodynamics and undergoing structural weight reduction.

Not exactly. IIRC, news reports changed figures from "greater than" 90KN to 95-100KN. Today it may be 110KN, which is still unreported.

But how much more can you possibly improve from the original requirement of 17 deg, the basic design is still the same. You want to improve it to 19deg, like Mirage-2000, go ahead.

LCA won't be required for turning fights anyway. Shoot and scoot. The same as what the Mig-21 is meant to do. Maybe it can get into a turning fight with aircraft like J-10/F-16/JF-17, but not when core air superiority support will be from Flankers and J-20, at least on the Chinese side.

 

[gokussj9]

5 tonnes is official data.

Due to some extra requirements for strike capability.




That doesn't say much. Even LCA will be tested with Kaveri in the next two years. Doesn't mean the program itself is successful.

We need production fighters with WS-13A.




The FGFA may have much better overall specs compared to PAKFA or vice versa. We don't know so we need to wait for more info.

Since the break up of the Union, "export" model no longer means "inferior" model.

Core tech on the FGFA will be Russian or Indian. Israelis may provide cockpit equipment from their HAL-Elbit JV and maybe some recce and targeting pods. The same that's on MKI today.

I got this links from BR courtsey @Austin

China-Pakistan JF-17 Fighter Slated for Block-2 Upgrades | Aviation International News

Take-off Magazine : RD-33: output on the rise

The links say that JF-17 B2 and B3 are being developed by Chinese.
And Klimov has been contracted to develop an improved variant of RD-93 with 9300 kgf .

Given the engine research may take a few years and induction of 20-25 aircraft per year, that means PAF would be
able to completely induct thunder by ~2022? Also, can the B2 and B3 feature quadruplex FBW or once the airframe is
constructed, it is not possible to do it? Also, to what extent composites can be added to the airframe and how much time usually it would require?

Thanks