Know Your 'Rafale'

[IndianHawk]

Rafale decimates every other fighter in IAF inventory in a simulated warfare conducted by TACDE and DACT - Wolfpack tweet
View attachment 129217

Nothing surprising here. Meteor + spectra is hard to beat. Things will get more interesting once su30 is upgraded to aesa with astra mk2/ Derby ER. And when lca mk2 comes online.

 

[Javelin_Sam]

Nothing surprising here. Meteor + spectra is hard to beat. Things will get more interesting once su30 is upgraded to aesa with astra mk2/ Derby ER. And when lca mk2 comes online.

LCA MK2 will be a total package. Compact yet packed to the brim. But Su-30s RCS will be very hard to hide. Nevertheless it can put the enemy fighters at a distance due to its payload and on-station time.
I believe Rafale-Tejas MK2 will be a deadly combination for the initial break the door kind of missions to PLAAF layered AD network than Rafale-Su-30mki. There will be losses. No doubt about that. That's where mere 36 numbers will bite IAF.

 

[Kalkioftoday]

LCA MK2 will be a total package. Compact yet packed to the brim. But Su-30s RCS will be very hard to hide. Nevertheless it can put the enemy fighters at a distance due to its payload and on-station time.
I believe Rafale-Tejas MK2 will be a deadly combination for the initial break the door kind of missions to PLAAF layered AD network than Rafale-Su-30mki. There will be losses. No doubt about that. That's where mere 36 numbers will bite IAF.

Before facing any ground based AD system, Rafale have to face J10s, J16s and above all J20s. Doesn't matter what others say but i will think twice before sending Rafale to face J20s. Stealth are different ballgame here. Rafale can't save our ass against J20s only AMCA can.

 

[Javelin_Sam]

Before facing any ground based AD system, Rafale have to face J10s, J16s and above all J20s. Doesn't matter what others say but i will think twice before sending Rafale to face J20s. Stealth are different ballgame here. Rafale can't save our ass against J20s only AMCA can.

Well, AMCA is still on paper. So have to be content with Rafale till AMCA gets cleared for squadron operations which is several years after first flight or even IOC delivery to IAF. So you have to sent Rafales before thinking even once.

 

[Kalkioftoday]

Well, AMCA is still on paper. So have to be content with Rafale till AMCA gets cleared for squadron operations which is several years after first flight or even IOC delivery to IAF

Yes and that's the problem here. Hope we find a way.

 

[SARTHAK]

Before facing any ground based AD system, Rafale have to face J10s, J16s and above all J20s. Doesn't matter what others say but i will think twice before sending Rafale to face J20s. Stealth are different ballgame here. Rafale can't save our ass against J20s only AMCA can.

you are right to an extent but ir signature will be the key in the mountains and masking while low flying is also important leveraging the terrain and iaf practices it often

 

[Love Charger]

Yes and that's the problem here. Hope we find a way.

Buy su 75 and su 57 ?

 

[Kalkioftoday]

you are right to an extent but ir signature will be the key in the mountains and masking while low flying is also important leveraging the terrain and iaf practices it often

IR signature bohut dur ki baat ha. It'll only matter when 4.5th gen rafale facing chinese 4.5th gen or when 5th gen AMCA facing 5th gen J20. When facing a 5th gen J20 the main problem for 4.5th gen rafale will not be the IR signature, it'll be the RCS of the rafale. And about the terrain masking, well it'll only work when we play the defensive or offensive role in the Himalayan range only, if we need to go full offensive on chinese infrastructure/concentration than we have to cross the Himalayan range and do the needful in the Tibetan plateau, which is a plain area and knowing china's capabilities of AWACS coverage in Tibet i don't think we can use that much of terrain masking in the plains of Tibet.
The red markings are Himalayan range and the grey area is the plateau

 

[SARTHAK]

Buy su 75 and su 57 ?

buying 24 57 would not be a problem but then buying more rafales would become very difficult as cost of maintaining multiple aircrafts and related infrastructure will increase ,better have a enclosed weapon pods for tejas mk2 or fastrack tedbf,it will be a good stopgap for amca

 

[Kalkioftoday]

Buy su 75 and su 57 ?

Nope. Su75 doesn't exist and Su57 won't stand a chance. Furthermore buying russian jets will only create future problems for us militarily and diplomatically. The best thing will be developing AMCA in a emergency mission mode and exploit our deep ties with france and US to develop the AMCA systems

 

[SARTHAK]

Nope. Su75 doesn't exist and Su57 won't stand a chance. Furthermore buying russian jets will only create future problems for us militarily and diplomatically. The best thing will be developing AMCA in a emergency mission mode and exploit our deep ties with france and US to develop the AMCA systems

not possible until 2027 ,better to plan a tejas mk2a with ewp

 

[FactsPlease]

In case anyone want to look at what @sayareakd said, exactly 5.5 years ago:

AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

I may not fully agree to your views but there are some of my points. Like you said but differently, Let us develop AMCA as twin engine version of Tejas, This puts the plane in a nice class such as it will be reliable due to twin engines, have medium-heavy weight which IAF wants, be made of...

defenceforumindia.com

 

[Kalkioftoday]

In case anyone want to look at what @sayareakd said, exactly 5.5 years ago:

AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

I may not fully agree to your views but there are some of my points. Like you said but differently, Let us develop AMCA as twin engine version of Tejas, This puts the plane in a nice class such as it will be reliable due to twin engines, have medium-heavy weight which IAF wants, be made of...

defenceforumindia.com

Is anyone surprise?

 

[IndianHawk]

LCA MK2 will be a total package. Compact yet packed to the brim. But Su-30s RCS will be very hard to hide. Nevertheless it can put the enemy fighters at a distance due to its payload and on-station time.
I believe Rafale-Tejas MK2 will be a deadly combination for the initial break the door kind of missions to PLAAF layered AD network than Rafale-Su-30mki. There will be losses. No doubt about that. That's where mere 36 numbers will bite IAF.

Su30mki will remain a potent beast. It has most weapons for sead and dead as of now including bramhos and rudram 1 along with all kinds of glide / long range bombs .

With upgrade it's aesa will be far more powerful than Rafale just because of sheer size of the radar. On top of that it will be GaN aesa Making it even more potent.

Being dual seater most mki will be mated with CATS program and control cats hunter / alpha S and cats warrior suside drones to breakdown enemy air defence from standoff distances. This capability will put it far ahead of Rafale as force multiplier.

Then there is report of growler type su30mki for electronic warfare which will be able to mask entire attacking party and jamming enemy radars from long distances.

Many indian ew pods are already being developed including Siva pod , HBJ pods along with Russian and Israeli pods availability.

That's why there are still consideration about buying more mkis. .

It will rule the sky's for a long time to come and it will be fully used in sead and dead missions with powerful standoff weaponary and potent ew jammers.

 

[Javelin_Sam]

The most important factor in door-breaking mission is surprise. The enemy systems must react as late as possible. Su-30 is huge. Add to this pylon carried Brahmos and Rudram type missiles. It will light up radars like a Christmas tree. Now add a J-20 with their long range BVRAAMS. .The CAATS program is atleast a decade or more away from reality.I don't buy this argument that Chinese equipments and platforms as dud. We are proud of the platforms and aware of the kind of capabilities that India has developed. The first Fighter Tejas, first BVRAAM Astra, first ARM Rudram etc. China with a well established industrial background, early start and more money to throw into R&D has equivalent or better platforms. They can throw some nasty surprises.

 

[IndianHawk]

The most important factor in door-breaking mission is surprise. The enemy systems must react as late as possible. Su-30 is huge. Add to this pylon carried Brahmos and Rudram type missiles. It will light up radars like a Christmas tree. Now add a J-20 with their long range BVRAAMS. .The CAATS program is atleast a decade or more away from reality.I don't buy this argument that Chinese equipments and platforms as dud. We are proud of the platforms and aware of the kind of capabilities that India has developed. The first Fighter Tejas, first BVRAAM Astra, first ARM Rudram etc. China with a well established industrial background, early start and more money to throw into R&D has equivalent or better platforms. They can throw some nasty surprises.

What is J20 going to do about a su30mki launching a bramhos from 500km away or Rafale launching a scalp from 600 km away.

Anyhow J20 is still underpowered and is facing many issues it won't be combat ready before end of this decade.

Yes china has far bigger production industry but there defence products are developed in isolation of western systems and without much competition while whatever we developed is developed in synergy with western technology and with enormous competition to be inducted from all the leading military nations product.

We don't know what benchmark chinese aesa had ? But we know that our uttam had to certainly match or exceed aesa available by france and Israel for mk1a otherwise it would never inter service.

 

[THESIS THORON]

Su30mki will remain a potent beast. It has most weapons for sead and dead as of now including bramhos and rudram 1 along with all kinds of glide / long range bombs .

With upgrade it's aesa will be far more powerful than Rafale just because of sheer size of the radar. On top of that it will be GaN aesa Making it even more potent.

Being dual seater most mki will be mated with CATS program and control cats hunter / alpha S and cats warrior suside drones to breakdown enemy air defence from standoff distances. This capability will put it far ahead of Rafale as force multiplier.

Then there is report of growler type su30mki for electronic warfare which will be able to mask entire attacking party and jamming enemy radars from long distances.

Many indian ew pods are already being developed including Siva pod , HBJ pods along with Russian and Israeli pods availability.

That's why there are still consideration about buying more mkis. .

It will rule the sky's for a long time to come and it will be fully used in sead and dead missions with powerful standoff weaponary and potent ew jammers.

why mkis are not getting new stealth paint ??

 

[Dark Sorrow]

why mkis are not getting new stealth paint ??

Because it won't help much.
Biggest source of radar reflection is engine's compression blades.
Its metallurgy and edge cuts is also makes it good radar wave reflector.
Its radar is also a dead give away.

 

[SARTHAK]

why mkis are not getting new stealth paint ??

mki is same f15 for usaf ,an upgraded f15ex is a monster so be will mki

 

[The Shrike]

In case anyone want to look at what @sayareakd said, exactly 5.5 years ago:

AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

I may not fully agree to your views but there are some of my points. Like you said but differently, Let us develop AMCA as twin engine version of Tejas, This puts the plane in a nice class such as it will be reliable due to twin engines, have medium-heavy weight which IAF wants, be made of...

defenceforumindia.com

After realising that the Russian's did not have (mature) 5th generation technology, we should have tried to get the only other game in town i.e. F-35 from the Americans as a stop gap until we developed our own. Instead we got barely 2 Sq of a 4.5 generation fighter while closing the door on the 5th gen alternative. Folks are high now but in 5-10 years the situation will degrade beyond the threshold of delusion induces by copium.