Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

Nope, full F4 will be available only from 2025 onward

You were right.
2025 and not 2023/24. My mistake.

 

[sayareakd]

Any one has any idea when will India specific Rafale will be delivered to us?

 

[BON PLAN]

Any one has any idea when will India specific Rafale will be delivered to us?

Officially september 2019 .

 

[asianobserve]

The US pressure is huge.
During Clinton govt there was a special war room to kill the Rafale that was seen that a huge threat.
F35 was, partially, made to kill european aircraft industry. And it partially run according to the plan.

Look who's talking?

Belgium's purchase of US-made F35 jets 'against European interests', Macron says

https://www.google.com.ph/amp/s/amp...tion-macron-purchase-usa-f35-jets-eurofighter

Stop with the excuses Rafale is old tech versus F-35. That's why it will always loose against it.

 

[asianobserve]

Aside from pressuring Belgium to buy older tech Rafale, it has even tried to bribe it still to no avail!

France promises 20 billion compensation to Belgium, if it buys its Rafale fighter plane

https://www.neweurope.eu/article/fr...mpensation-belgium-buys-rafale-fighter-plane/

But Belgium wants to future proof its AF! They want cutting edge fighter not 70's eurocanard.

 

[BON PLAN]

Look who's talking?

Belgium's purchase of US-made F35 jets 'against European interests', Macron says

https://www.google.com.ph/amp/s/amp...tion-macron-purchase-usa-f35-jets-eurofighter

Stop with the excuses Rafale is old tech versus F-35. That's why it will always loose against it.

Let's wait the first real encounter between the two.
For the moment one is on duty every day, whan the other struggle for FOC.

 

[asianobserve]

Let's wait the first real encounter between the two.
For the moment one is on duty every day, whan the other struggle for FOC.

How can Rafale shoot down an F-35 if it cannot even win over it in fighter tenders?

 

[WolfPack86]

Sweet. @ANI has the first pictures of RB008, the first Rafale built for the Indian Air Force.

 

[WolfPack86]

First Indian Air Force Rafale RB008 in flight at the Istres air base. (Grabs/@ANI)

 

[smestarz]

so let me get this straight,

when Belgium wants to order F-35 it is against European interest.

And France is willing to (for the loss of right word) pay BRIBES to get Bbeligum to buy French Rafale then its good for Europe? Why cant France just give the planes Free to Belgium. Can the belgians then refuse it? Can there be some low than this? France does not have good buyers for this and Indians got suckered into it.

About Europe... Belgians are close to Dutch and the Dutch and many european countries are going to buy F-35..so in case, Belgians will have a better interoperability with F-35 as there are more european countries operating the same than Rafale..

Aside from pressuring Belgium to buy older tech Rafale, it has even tried to bribe it still to no avail!

France promises 20 billion compensation to Belgium, if it buys its Rafale fighter plane

https://www.neweurope.eu/article/fr...mpensation-belgium-buys-rafale-fighter-plane/

But Belgium wants to future proof its AF! They want cutting edge fighter not 70's eurocanard.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

so let me get this straight,

when Belgium wants to order F-35 it is against European interest.

And France is willing to (for the loss of right word) pay BRIBES to get Bbeligum to buy French Rafale then its good for Europe? Why cant France just give the planes Free to Belgium. Can the belgians then refuse it? Can there be some low than this? France does not have good buyers for this and Indians got suckered into it.

About Europe... Belgians are close to Dutch and the Dutch and many european countries are going to buy F-35..so in case, Belgians will have a better interoperability with F-35 as there are more european countries operating the same than Rafale..

One must not underestimate the pressure of USA lobby. Can you give the same reasoning to not buy Rafale for not buying Su35 or EF Typhoon? Of course not. The most important requirement in defence deals are political in nature. USA has lot of diplomatic heft. It can arrange favours for belgium in terms of covering up corruption of politicians, giving support to Belgium when it has quarrels with other countries, incentives for investment in Belgium etc.

France can't sell Rafale as easily as USA because France does not have the diplomatic heft. F35 may be advanced plane but that alone is not a reason for choosing it. F35 has lot of defects while carrying heavy payloads and in terms of speed. Yet, these are chosen over rafale politically

 

[WolfPack86]

First Indian Air Force Rafale RB008 in flight at the Istres air base.

 

[asianobserve]

One must not underestimate the pressure of USA lobby. Can you give the same reasoning to not buy Rafale for not buying Su35 or EF Typhoon? Of course not. The most important requirement in defence deals are political in nature. USA has lot of diplomatic heft. It can arrange favours for belgium in terms of covering up corruption of politicians, giving support to Belgium when it has quarrels with other countries, incentives for investment in Belgium etc.

France can't sell Rafale as easily as USA because France does not have the diplomatic heft. F35 may be advanced plane but that alone is not a reason for choosing it. F35 has lot of defects while carrying heavy payloads and in terms of speed. Yet, these are chosen over rafale politically

You're giving the US too much credit. The main headquarters of the EU is in Brussels. Belgium is far more economically and politically dependent on the EU than US. And don't start talking about Belgium being too dependent on the security guarantee of NATO for unlike former USSR colonies that are now part of NATO, Belgium does not share any border with Russia. Belgium is safe in the middle of Europe! I don't think Germany will take another swing at Belgium, or France for that matter. The only security worry of the Belgians is Islamic terrorism and that does not need a fighter jet to tackle.

If there's pressure in European fighter tenders or plans to buy new fighters due to ageing inventories it is coming from EU politicians, mainly France and Germany. The German Air Force chief was recently forced to resign after voicing preference for the stealthy F-35 as Tornado replacement whereas the German politicians wanted to buy 70's tech Eurofighter for economic reasons.

Just look at the record of fighter tenders when Rafale comes up against the F-35, Rafale is always the loser!

In Canada, Tradeau campaigned on axing F-35 despite not having conducted first a fair anslysis. The Canadian AF clearly leans towards the F-35. And now, the F-35 is about to stuff Tradeau's blabbering politician's mouth.

All major Middle Eastern country are salivating at the F-35, only if they are allowed to buy them. Even the Indian Air Force will abandon PAKFA and Rafale in a heart beat if only the F-35 is offered to it now!

In the end, the biggest liabilities of Rafale and its twin sister, the Eurofighter, are: 1) they're both old tech by the time they were fully inducted into service due to emergence of stealth which has immense tactical edge on the battlefield; and 2) there are two of them resulting in the dilution of their industrial and economic advantage (resulting in very expensive old tech).

Now, having realized their folly in Rafale and Eurofighter, France and Germany are taking another try at fighter development (aimed to rival the F-35). This project already sounds late again, provided France and Germany can agree on the ground rules (I wouldn't hold my breath on it).

 

[BON PLAN]

WITH 5 NEW STEALTH FEATURES, RAFALE F4 WILL BE A FIGHTER TO BEAT IN MMRCA2

https://globaldefencewatch.com/with...le-f4-will-be-a-fighter-to-beat-in-mmrca-2-0/

To read after a bottle of rhum....

 

[ezsasa]

Rafale has officially been declared as 5th Gen by IAF today.

i am just hoping that this is a collective thought after justification, rather than knee jerk reaction in the court room.

==============
"Are these and the Light Combat Aircraft fourth generation", CJI Gogoi.
"I would say its 3.5", says Air Marshall.

#Rafale: The new proposed aircraft is of which generation?, CJI Gogoi "5th generation because it has stealth techonolgy", responds IAF officer.

 

[captscooby81]

It looks more like Knee jerk reaction from our Air force officers ..Sad they are pulled to SC to explain these milaards technology and they just called LCA and SU30 MKI 3.5G and Rafale 5G ......

Rafale has officially been declared as 5th Gen by IAF today.

i am just hoping that this is a collective thought after justification, rather than knee jerk reaction in the court room.

==============
"Are these and the Light Combat Aircraft fourth generation", CJI Gogoi.
"I would say its 3.5", says Air Marshall.

#Rafale: The new proposed aircraft is of which generation?, CJI Gogoi "5th generation because it has stealth techonolgy", responds IAF officer.

 

[indus]

Rafale has officially been declared as 5th Gen by IAF today.

i am just hoping that this is a collective thought after justification, rather than knee jerk reaction in the court room.

==============
"Are these and the Light Combat Aircraft fourth generation", CJI Gogoi.
"I would say its 3.5", says Air Marshall.

#Rafale: The new proposed aircraft is of which generation?, CJI Gogoi "5th generation because it has stealth techonolgy", responds IAF officer.

I think its more to do with the IAF playing safely. By saying Rafale is way ahead than LcA, Sukhois they can justify the high price easily. If IAF had said there is not much difference, it would have opened a can of worms. Milords would have then asked: Then why you want to buy Rfl. More Sukhois can do. Why to spend taxpayers money. If all planes are similar what is there to hide. Why is Govt hiding the tech, price details etc if planes are similar. Etc etc. So such an answer saved skins of many people.

 

[WolfPack86]

#Breaking Latest Report Reveals New Information Regarding Active Stealth Fighter Rafale F4. Potential winner of MMRCA-2 ??

#PROGRAMME_OUTLINE :

Dassault has received a commission from the Armée de L’air or Air Army ( French Air Force) and Marine Nationale for an upgraded version of the Dassault Rafale. With plans underway for the commissioning of a new carrier, an expansion of the Marine Nationale’s Rafale fleet is necessary. The Marine Nationale possesses only 42 Rafales, which is fine for the 34-plane air-wing of the Charles de Gaulle but totally insufficient to equip the complement of the planned Super Carrier Cardinal Richelieu. Since a new wing of Rafales is to be commissioned anyway, it has been deemed a good opportunity to modify the Rafale with Dassault’s planned stealth improvements.

#STEALTH :

The Rafale has been designed with reduced observability in mind. It gives out a Radar Cross Section of only 0.05 metre square when the Spectra suite is on, which is equal to a ‘sparrow’. But still Rafale is by no means a stealth aircraft. That being said, its observability could stand to be further reduced without incurring too much cost. Four key features present themselves as major offenders in this regard :

1. The single vertical tailfin,

2. The fixed external fuel probe,

3. The externally mounted targetting pods required for ground attack

4. The basic, circular engine nozzles

Each of these issues will be addressed in Rafale F4 :

1. The empennage of Rafale will be redesigned with twin canted tailfins, with the large central SPECTRA radar warning receiver atop the tail being replaced by twin modules atop either of the two new fins. The extra available pod space this entails will allow integration of several elements of Thales/Safran VGA peripheral awareness system. Ideally this section of the airframe will be easily replaced, a matter of replacing the necessary external skin sections and bolting the new wing roots into the support structure.

2. The external fuel probe will be replaced with a retractable model that folds into the outer hull of the nosecone.

3. The Damocles targeting pod is inherently non-stealthy but since it is being replaced by the in-development TALIOS pod anyway, this is easily resolved. TALIOS and AREOS will be designed with stealth-shaped external casings.

4. The final issue is the exhaust nozzles. Replacing these with a serrated nozzle system is relatively easily done.
5. Additionally, stealth coatings developed for the Merlin project will be applied. Incidentally, Merlin is a French-German satellite (Methane Remote Sensing Lidar Mission) that will go into Earth orbit in 2021 to measure concentrations of atmospheric methane with unprecedented precision.

#AVIONICS :

All aircraft will be equipped with upgraded short-range datalink systems for integration with Dassault Systems’ planned drone control software. The Rafale B will have further modifications for this purpose, with software being designed to allow the weapons system officer to control nearby drone aircraft. Additionally, the sensor fusion systems developed for the Merlin will be applied and integrated with the VGA and OSF optical/infrared tracking systems and any attached targeting modules, allowing the pilot greatly enhanced situational awareness.

DASSAULT RAFALE F4C

Statistic Specification

Crew 1

Length 15.27m

Wingspan 10.8m

Height 5.14m

Wing Area 45.7m square

Empty weight 9900kg

Full weight 15000kg

Max weight 24500kg

Power Plant 2xSnecma-M88-3
(50kN cruise,
75kN afterburner)

Max speed Mach 1.8

Cruising speed Mach 1.5

Range 3700km (3 drop tanks)

Combat radius 1800km

Service ceiling 15.2km

Rate of Climb 305m/s

Integral Weapons 1xGIAT 30M791

Internal Armament None

External Armament 14 Hardpoints

Cost $77 million

DASSAULT RAFALE F4B

Statistic Specification

Crew 2

Length 15.27m

Wingspan 10.8m

Height 5.14m

Wing Area 45.7m square

Empty weight 10450kg

Full weight 15000kg

Max weight 24500kg

Power Plant 2xSnecma-M88-3
(50kN cruise,
75kN afterburner)

Max speed Mach 1.8

Cruising speed Mach 1.5

Range 3700km (3 drop tanks)

Combat radius 1800km

Service ceiling 15.2km

Rate of Climb 305m/s

Integral Weapons 1xGIAT 30M791

Internal Armament None

External Armament 14 Hardpoints

Cost $84 million

DASSAULT RAFALE F4M

Statistic. Specification

Crew. 1

Length 15.27 m

Wingspan 10.8 m

Height 5.14 m

Wing Area 45.7m square

Empty weight 10,750 kg

Full weight 15000 kg

Max weight 24500 kg

Power Plant 2xSnecma-M88-3
(50kN cruise,
75kN afterburner)

Max speed Mach 1.8

Cruising speed Mach 1.5

Range 3700km (3 drop tanks)

Combat radius 1800km

Service ceiling 15.2km

Rate of Climb 305m/s

Integral Weapons 1xGIAT 30M791

Internal Armament None

External Armament 13 Hardpoints

Cost $89 million

#RESEARCH_AND_DEVELOPMENT :

Research and development of the Rafale F4 programme is expected to cost 1.3 billion dollars over the next 3 years.

#CONCLUSION :

It looks like with huge order from India in sight and French Air Force as well as Navy’s own needs, France has paced up the development of Rafale F4 standard and advanced the schedule. Otherwise earlier tentative schedule for F4 was suggested to be only after 2025. On the other hand, Indian Air Force is also under pressure to look for a fifth-gen alternative after Indo-Russian PAKFA was scuttled. Given that no ice has been broken with USA on F-35 so far, its early availability also looks highly unlikely. Indigenous AMCA programme is expected to be around only by mid-thirties. Meanwhile, France has long been a trusted defence supplier to India. So it will be a decision of tremendous prudence and foresight if Indian Government wards off all pressure domestic and foreign, and opts for Rafale F4 as IAF’s next medium multi-role combat aircraft.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TeamAMCA/photos/?ref=page_internal
.

 

[asianobserve]

#Breaking Latest Report Reveals New Information Regarding Active Stealth Fighter Rafale F4. Potential winner of MMRCA-2 ??

#PROGRAMME_OUTLINE :

Dassault has received a commission from the Armée de L’air or Air Army ( French Air Force) and Marine Nationale for an upgraded version of the Dassault Rafale. With plans underway for the commissioning of a new carrier, an expansion of the Marine Nationale’s Rafale fleet is necessary. The Marine Nationale possesses only 42 Rafales, which is fine for the 34-plane air-wing of the Charles de Gaulle but totally insufficient to equip the complement of the planned Super Carrier Cardinal Richelieu. Since a new wing of Rafales is to be commissioned anyway, it has been deemed a good opportunity to modify the Rafale with Dassault’s planned stealth improvements.

#STEALTH :

The Rafale has been designed with reduced observability in mind. It gives out a Radar Cross Section of only 0.05 metre square when the Spectra suite is on, which is equal to a ‘sparrow’. But still Rafale is by no means a stealth aircraft. That being said, its observability could stand to be further reduced without incurring too much cost. Four key features present themselves as major offenders in this regard :

1. The single vertical tailfin,

2. The fixed external fuel probe,

3. The externally mounted targetting pods required for ground attack

4. The basic, circular engine nozzles

Each of these issues will be addressed in Rafale F4:

Odd that this article did not include the 2 elephants in the room when it comes to Rafale's radar signature:

1. Weapons, all weapons of Rafale (except its cannon) are externally mounted; and

2. External fuel tanks.

Unless Rafale operators will go to war with only its internal cannon and with limited fuel then I don't see how Rafale can be made LO with any useful combat load.

 

[asianobserve]

This is what I am talking about:

It looks like the IAF will be robbed in broad daylight by promises of turning Rafale into a LO, which cannot be delivered.