Know Your 'Rafale'

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Take just one exemple :
Give to your wife a golden jewel. its price is far higher than the sole gold. Why? because you have to pay for the designer work, for the guy who made the jewel, for the jeweller, VAT...

In a fighter case, there is a part of R&D in the price (in the Rafale case, 25% of the R&D was paid by Dassault, Thales, Snecma), the price of a single mono crystal blade of the engine is more than its weight in gold. A T/R module of the AESA radar probably also.

The skilled workers in a plane factory are not paid 4$ per hour even in Indi.

What is the weight of a software? The price per Kilo of Windows 10 is so huge.... => Weight is not the right mesure.

Bro, you can be sure that if it was possible to reduce by 10 the price, it was discover since 1950...

I am only saying that the operational cost of a plane can be made to be very low. So, by scaling it to higher numbers, per unit price can be reduced drastically.

The cost of salary in India for plane factory workers is indeed about $3-$10 per hour (Rs 35000-150000 per month) from the mechanical workers to the highly qualified and experienced workers. The govt salary of HAL etc are not too high. However, certain perks like job stability, unlimited medical insurance etc are provided by PSUs. So, the cost of workers is not too high, at least not in India.

The cost of R&D can be considered as government grant for research and simply written off. The development of software, hardware etc are one time job with regular refining. So, they too can be considered as one time developmental labour cost. Once developed, these cost no longer matter for production.

 

[indus]

The cost of R&D can be considered as government grant for research and simply written off. The development of software, hardware etc are one time job with regular refining. So, they too can be considered as one time developmental labour cost. Once developed, these cost no longer matter for production.

Wonder why nobody in the World or India ever thought these simple one line solutions to the most complex problems. When we could be producing 1 lakh planes per year by now, Stupid IAF is stuck at 42 squadrons math. :blah::blah::blah:

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Wonder why nobody in the World or India ever thought these simple one line solutions to the most complex problems. When we could be producing 1 lakh planes per year by now, Stupid IAF is stuck at 42 squadrons math. :blah::blah::blah:

Don't just say some scenario and then link it with what I said. If you know any mistakes in what I said, do point out.

About the reasons why IAF is stuck at 42 squadrons, I think:

• IAF is filled with people like you, with tunnel vision and not visionaries
• The Tejas engine is imported and USA refuses to supply large quantity
• Su30 has some Russian license and India does not want to violate it by producing in large numbers though technology is available
• Preventing accusation of arms build up by others and panic situation that may cause unwanted attacks
• To ensure that the countries elsewhere don't start demanding low cost for the equipments by pointing at Indian manufacturing of large number of fighters

 

[WolfPack86]

So 35 #Rafale will be modified in #India , by whom? That is the answer I'm looking for here!

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

So 35 #Rafale will be modified in #India , by whom? That is the answer I'm looking for here!

That is software modification only. Dassault has said that it is just plug and play, not overhauling. So, it is likely that Dassault will do it in India

 

[WolfPack86]

So the reasons Modi ji gave for scrapping #Rafale Deal: urgency and Delivery in FLY AWAY Condition turn out to be lies! India will get only 1 Rafale by 2019, rest 35 will take until 2022 and will be enhanced in India by Anil Ambani company!

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

So the reasons Modi ji gave for scrapping #Rafale Deal: urgency and Delivery in FLY AWAY Condition turn out to be lies! India will get only 1 Rafale by 2019, rest 35 will take until 2022 and will be enhanced in India by Anil Ambani company!

How does this make sense? India is gettig rafale delivery from 2019 and all 36 will come by 2022. The fully advanced rafale is coming last. After that comes, rest 35 will be upgraded in India. But, they will already be in India itself. Just because India specific upgrades are not there does not mean that the rafales are waste.

Don't put in tweets of ponga pandits and useless people as if it something useful

 

[mayfair]

EXCLUSIVE: 1st Full Details Of Rafale’s €4-billion Make-in-India & Offsets Plan

https://www.livefistdefence.com/201...of-frances-e4-billion-india-offsets-plan.html

Why assume that India-specific modifications cannot and will not be carried out by these firms??

 

[BON PLAN]

https://m.republicworld.com/india-n...nt-for-india-are-the-most-potent-in-the-world

https://www.livefistdefence.com/201...urricane-no-taj-mahal-fly-by-for-rafales.html

The IAF’s Vice Chief Air Marshal S.B. Deo said today at a conference, “I shouldn’t comment but I can tell you all this discussion going on Rafale, because we know a lot about how everything went, we find people don’t have information. We’re waiting for the aircraft. Rafale is beautiful & capable aircraft.”

 

[BON PLAN]

So 35 #Rafale will be modified in #India , by whom? That is the answer I'm looking for here!

by Reliance Dassault co enterprise.

 

[BON PLAN]

So the reasons Modi ji gave for scrapping #Rafale Deal: urgency and Delivery in FLY AWAY Condition turn out to be lies! India will get only 1 Rafale by 2019, rest 35 will take until 2022 and will be enhanced in India by Anil Ambani company!

NO.
36 Rafale in 36 months = 1 rafale each month.
Probably, as usual, they will be delivered 3 by 3.

The first Rafale will immediatly be able to fire MICA, Meteor, SCALP.

You choose the Lightening pod. OK. In case of a french laser pod purchase you will be ready fo fire LGB immediatly once sept 2019.

You choose not to take AASM. OK. If not you will be able to fire immediatly metric and decametric 70km range Hammer.

 

[Sancho]

And if Dassault was so wrong, why inking a deal after that for 36? Eurofighter was there....

That's the question the PM needs to answer, but that doesn't change the facts of the MMRCA.

 

[Sancho]

A special news for @Sancho

"The success of the Rafale in India is part of the Make in India initiative launched by Prime Minister Naranda Modi.

I stopped reading at this point because of laughter, since the PMs Rafale deal is the single biggest disappointment for his own Make in India marketing, because nothing will be produced in India as Reliance recently confirmed too.

 

[Sancho]

Why is buying 126 Rafales a waste??? Looking at the squadron strength any no of new planes is a bonus. Atleast better than flying 1970s era outdated planes. So 36 or 126 Rafales, either option is better than not having anything.

Of course 126 Rafales or MMRCAs are no waste, but there is a huge difference between 36 and 126!

The latter was the minimum requirement, to defend the country at all areas, to redeploy fighters to other bases during a conflict and to add additional capabilities, to fight modern air combats.
But limiting the requirement to 36, is nothing but a waste of money, since 18 Rafales won't make a difference against PAF, let alone PLAAF, because they are too limited in numbers and location.

Getting 126 MMRCAs was the critical requirement to defend he country and the Rafale deal fails that objective, just as it failed the industrial objective to get a licence production and industrial advantages for our aviation industry.

 

[Sancho]

So 35 #Rafale will be modified in #India , by whom? That is the answer I'm looking for here!

The author of the original article confused several things, which led to wrong time lines and conclusions. We only need to look at the Mirage 2000 upgrade, to see how things are likely to go.

- Dassault produces the fighters with all French capabilities and customizations in IOC condition
- all 36 will be delivered to an Indian industrial partner, that integrates the non French customizations to FOC condition
- all 36 fighters in FOC condition will be delivered till 2022

Now for the Mirage 2000 upgrade , HAL was the industrial partner =>

...The Final Operational Configuration (FOC) design was implemented on an Initial Operational Configured (IOC) aircraft which was received at HAL only about eight months ago. “This significant milestone could be achieved by the dedicated efforts of the HAL’s team of designers and engineers with active support from IAF, RCMA and DGAQA”, adds Mr. Raju.

The initial operation configuration was designed by the Dassault and Thales of France. HAL took up the FOC design and development activities. The FOC configuration covers the integration of Indian specific weapons, sensors and EW system. This FOC upgrade on Mirage 2000 gives additional capability of air to ground weapon, training, helmet mounted display etc. The system having a unique feature of integrating different types of data bus for IOC and FOC configuration is achieved without any degradation. The total design and development was done by HAL which includes mission computer hardware, OFP software, system design, aircraft modification etc. The Company is responsible for the IOC and FOC upgrade of the Mirage fleet of IAF...

http://hal-india.co.in/Mirage 2000 ...her HAL Project Takes-off on Schedule/ND__172

For Rafale the main partner is DRAL, but since the offsets are not fully decided yet, we will have to wait and see, if Dassault doesn't end up with HAL after all.

 

[indus]

Of course 126 Rafales or MMRCAs are no waste, but there is a huge difference between 36 and 126!

The latter was the minimum requirement, to defend the country at all areas, to redeploy fighters to other bases during a conflict and to add additional capabilities, to fight modern air combats.
But limiting the requirement to 36, is nothing but a waste of money, since 18 Rafales won't make a difference against PAF, let alone PLAAF, because they are too limited in numbers and location.

Getting 126 MMRCAs was the critical requirement to defend he country and the Rafale deal fails that objective, just as it failed the industrial objective to get a licence production and industrial advantages for our aviation industry.

This is a classical example of "Damm if u do, Damm if u dont" philosphy. Nobody questions the previous Govt as to why they could not finalise and sign a deal in 8 yrs if 126 number was so critical to defend the skies. Its absurd to say not buying 126 is better option than buying 36. I know 36 is not enough. But is it going to be the last procurement. There is always an option additonal orders. 126 may be the ideal number but we dont have unlimited budget. If we were printing our own dollars we could have bought anything on the planet. But it isnt so. So be content that after so many years a new fighter is being added.
As to the 7 types of planes IAF is flying, didnt this question arise when we bought Jaguars or Mirages in limited numbers?? Why to raise this bogey now. And most of the 7 fighters will be retired in coming decades. MIG 21, 27, Jags, all are on their last legs of life. In future IAF will mostly compriseSu 30, Tejas and Rafales.

 

[Pulkit]

Of course 126 Rafales or MMRCAs are no waste, but there is a huge difference between 36 and 126!

Rafales are not going to be the workhorse of IAF. They are the symbol of air dominance. Yes there is a huge difference from 126 to 36 but in my understanding nothing better could have been done with the deal, keeping in mind there is a option of follow up orders which personally i dont think is good. I am personally happy with 2 squads of Rafale.

The latter was the minimum requirement, to defend the country at all areas, to redeploy fighters to other bases during a conflict and to add additional capabilities, to fight modern air combats.
But limiting the requirement to 36, is nothing but a waste of money, since 18 Rafales won't make a difference against PAF, let alone PLAAF, because they are too limited in numbers and location.

Given the range and firepower of Rafale and remember we are not the aggressors 36 in any ratio is a force multiplier. (I have been anti Rafale for long and still am but 36 or may be 54 is not a bad option but 126 was)

Getting 126 MMRCAs was the critical requirement to defend he country and the Rafale deal fails that objective,

How? Had congress signed the deal in 2011 it would have been ideal as manufacturing in India would have taken time but when the deal was actually made we didnt have 10 years to spare.

just as it failed the industrial objective to get a licence production and industrial advantages for our aviation industry.

What have they learned from it anyways? Fast tracking LCA and AMCA can be a key to industrial growth and the experience to assemble we already have and I believe there was hardly any TOT in the deal.

 

[Kshithij]

He seems to be the same guy @Kshithij "SHIT JI"

One lakh fighters.

This idiot doesn't even know and see that even if we add up all the fighters from all the countries across the world we won't even reach 50000 fighters. And this idiot wants India to have 100000 fighters. He can't even see that a single su30mki or Rafale or f18, any 4.5 gen fighter, etc. Is as effective as 1 or even 2 squadrons of WW1 and WW2 fighters. The era of carpet bombing is gone and similarly era of dog fighting is gone too. Also the cost a single 4.5gen fighter will cost as much as 2 to 4 squadrons of WW1 and WW2 fighter. Producing one lakh fighters will bring down the economy of even mighty US, let alone india.

Further pilot training and cost and salary too are prohibitive. But he doesn't seem to understand...

Do you know anything at all? Why do you irritate everyone around? People don't need 1 lakh fighters unless there is a need for action.

Explain to me the following:
1) How is Su30 as good as 2 squadrons (40 planes) of WW2 planes? Each WW2 plane could carry 4ton of bombs and drop them in certain place. How will single Su30 drop 160ton of bombs in same time at different places?
2) Dog fighting is gone? Maybe. But, the large number of planes are needed for attacking enemy bases and sites, not dogfighting. This is not WWE to fight plane vs plane!
3) Carpet bombing is gone? What exactly replaced carpet bombing now? What is the substitute?
4) The cost of making a plane is same today as in WW2 in manhour per production. The advanced fighters of WW2 made by USA took same amount of manpower to make as F16. Just development time is less. But, once developed, manufacturing is equally hard
5) Pilot training is needed even for WW2 planes. In fact, FBW has made flying easier now. But additional load in terms of information warfare sensors and understanding etc is needed now. Also, in WW2 there were no simulators which made training of WW2 pilots harder. Yet, they managed to get about 10lakh planes in total!

 

[Sancho]

A desperate IAF is trying to defend the bad Rafale deal, by justifying low numbers with historical purchases of former governments and that the procurement of S400 SAMs, next to the Rafales can counter the depleting numbers.

Full video:

 

[mayfair]

Oh yes, a statement by a serving Air Chief and deputy air chief is desperation.

Anything that does not agree with your view must be "desperation" and "bad" isn't it?