Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

Then there is the FACT that the two Rafale bases in India are being built to operate 2 SQNs EACH.

72 is the minimum but I am certain that over time the full MMRCA requirement will be met, just wait for MMRCA 2.0 farce to come to its logical conclusion.

YES. And maybe more (some french air bases can accomodate 3 Sqn of 20 each).

 

[BON PLAN]

Explain to me why 72 planes are important? How did you come to 72 and not 720? or 5000? Can you tell me how can India win war with 72 planes? Don't you think that enemy can use SAMs and attack bases with missiles to take out aircrafts? In such scenario, can 72 planes win wars at all or do they simply result in prolonging the problem?

Let us be realistic for once in lifetime. The number of planes made in WW2 by USA alone was 3.5lakh in 5 years which is 70000 per year! Even today, the number of cars made is 50 lakh in India while other items like 2 wheelers are 2.5 crore, tractors of 10lakh, 3wheelers of 10 lakh etc and here we are about purchasing 72 planes and calling it economical. No matter how good rafale is, if only 72 planes are used, the enemy can easily overwhelm it by sending 720 MiG21 planes and all it takes is 720 suicide squad members with flying skills and ability to make cheap MiG21s! We all know that Pakistan can afford to send even 72000 suicide squad members and we have killed 720 members already just in the last 4 years in border firing.

The planes are not bought to win wars but to acquire technology which can be used in indigenous planes and aeronautics. The question to be asked is if the money spent on rafale is worth the technology acquired. India does not want rafales for its greatness but just wants the technology to incorporate in Tejas planes or future AMCA. Even if India has to pay $30 billion dollars for just 10 rafales but with full technology transfer, it is still worth it.

Since countries don't give ToT easily, the next best thing is to acquire the minimum ToT and also study the plane once acquired to get better understanding of technology and get new ideas of how some intricate details work which in turn is to be used to develop indigenous technology for Indian planes.

In this case, just order Bae Hawk.... still enough to make some ground support.

Or not.

 

[BON PLAN]

I see no difference between Indian and Egypt deal cost. These india specific modifications, help in kaveri engine story r just to justify Rafale deal cost.there is no truth in that. We should accept Rafale is costlier jet. And we cant afford them in large numbers

Wake up Bro !
Open your eyes !!!

The deal with Egyp include a frigate. No ToT, planes to the french F3 standard (without nuc capacity), no SCALP, no METEOR

The deal with India includes 50% OFFSET, a F3R (just released 2 months ago) standard WITH indian acccomodation (another Helmet, another laser pod, integration of SPICE 250 and ASTRA, sat communication, broader electronic support waves...) + SCALP + METEOR.
It's like to compare Mercedes class C and class S. The two are Mercedes, but...
It's a VERY VERY GOOD PRICE.

 

[Kshithij]

In this case, just order Bae Hawk.... still enough to make some ground support.

Or not.

India already makes Hawk-i and the engine of 25kN is also being developed. India will order that too. But, hawk is easy to be take out be even ground AAA artillery fire. So, more robust planes and the technology to make them is needed

 

[abingdonboy]

Egypt Rafale deal

http://m.france24.com/en/20150216-france-egypt-sign-deal-sale-rafale-fighter-jets
French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian arrived in Cairo on Monday to sign a €5.2 billion contract for the sale of 24 Rafale fighter jets to Egypt,

Indian Rafale deal
https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-...from-france/story-KFXMt9NlWnHVaNPeEdrPXI.html
India signed a deal to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets from France on Friday for close to 7.8 billion euros

I see no difference between Indian and Egypt deal cost. These india specific modifications, help in kaveri engine story r just to justify Rafale deal cost.there is no truth in that. We should accept Rafale is costlier jet. And we cant afford them in large numbers

So even though India signed its deal at a later date than the other export customers, when the INR value was significantly higher, it was able to pay less per unit than either Egypt or Qatar whilst at the same time being able to secure a 50% offsets package that will mean that the French side will invest fifty percent the value of the entire deal back into India. Additionally, the IAF (Indian Air Force) deal includes far superior jets to those of the Egyptian and Qatari air forces that are customized to Indian conditions.

http://www.opindia.com/2018/03/dass...government-congress-rahul-gandhi-lies-expose/

For about $4-5bn the IAF can get another 36 Rafales and this certainly is the plan, NO WAY would any rational decsion maker commit to $3BN addtional costs in the orginal deal just for 36 jets, again the follow-on order is priced into the first tranche, India will be out of pocket if it doesn't exercise the option,

The Su30 MKI was the foundation of Indian aerospace. It gave India the much needed technology to develop the infrastructure. Things like powder metallurgy, turbine blade manufacturing etc were all larnt in this process. Even the avionics and radars of Su30 have been indigenised and thus added to the knowledge database. Nothing helped more than Su30 manufacturing in developing Indian aeronautical industry. Russia gave full ToT of Su30 despite it being a very competent fighter jet. So, even ToT wise Su30 gave lots of ToT. Su30 is the foundation of LCA or AMCA manufacturing.

The 4 squadrons of IAF is a speculation. How do you know that IAF is not making room for additional squadrons of Su30 or Tejas which is being made?

Sorry, other than building up a supply ecosystem in India, I really struggle to see where the "TOT" from MKI has gone, there has been ample discussion about this and the Russians still require HAL to buy the fan blades from the Russian OEM so there's no way anything like TOT came to India.

And talking specifically, what parts of the LCA have been influenced by the MKI? The composite body? The all made in India FCS?

+ The infrastructure is being made specifically for 4 Rafale SQNs.

By the way, the cost of follow-ons was largely paid for in the first tranche, if India doesn't go for 36 more it will be a scandel of epic proportions, the next 36 will be almost HALF the price of the first 36.

Economies of scale are a thing

https://www.defencenewsindia.com/in...w-on-order-will-result-in-40-percent-savings/


72 is the minumum the IAF will ever get, if Modi comes back in 2019 with a clear mandate then we can start talking about the remaining 54.

IN's fighter requirements are in stasis, the IN seems particuarly laid back about their aviation wing.

YES. And maybe more (some french air bases can accomodate 3 Sqn of 20 each).

Can't comment on that, all I know is that Ambala and Hasimara are having infrastructure to support 2 Rafale SQNs each based there.

 

[Kshithij]

So even though India signed its deal at a later date than the other export customers, when the INR value was significantly higher, it was able to pay less per unit than either Egypt or Qatar whilst at the same time being able to secure a 50% offsets package that will mean that the French side will invest fifty percent the value of the entire deal back into India. Additionally, the IAF (Indian Air Force) deal includes far superior jets to those of the Egyptian and Qatari air forces that are customized to Indian conditions.

http://www.opindia.com/2018/03/dass...government-congress-rahul-gandhi-lies-expose/

For about $4-5bn the IAF can get another 36 Rafales and this certainly is the plan, NO WAY would any rational decsion maker commit to $3BN addtional costs in the orginal deal just for 36 jets, again the follow-on order is priced into the first tranche, India will be out of pocket if it doesn't exercise the option,

The 2 billion dollar for making an airbase is absurd. India is not a useless state that can't build a hardened bunker for aircrafts. Also, things like 7 years of guarantee is not costing less than 2 billion dollars. The investment and offsets involved also have to be considered. This number is not correct at all.

Sorry, other than building up a supply ecosystem in India, I really struggle to see where the "TOT" from MKI has gone, there has been ample discussion about this and the Russians still require HAL to buy the fan blades from the Russian OEM so there's no way anything like TOT came to India.

And talking specifically, what parts of the LCA have been influenced by the MKI? The composite body? The all made in India FCS?

+ The infrastructure is being made specifically for 4 Rafale SQNs.

By the way, the cost of follow-ons was largely paid for in the first tranche, if India doesn't go for 36 more it will be a scandel of epic proportions, the next 36 will be almost HALF the price of the first 36.

Economies of scale are a thing

https://www.defencenewsindia.com/in...w-on-order-will-result-in-40-percent-savings/


72 is the minumum the IAF will ever get, if Modi comes back in 2019 with a clear mandate then we can start talking about the remaining 54.

IN's fighter requirements are in stasis, the IN seems particuarly laid back about their aviation wing.

ToT from MKI has been used in making avionics, engine of Kaveri, radars and their processor algorithm etc have been massively useful. The modern aircraft is mainly dependent on things like avionics and electronics rather than just airframe. Also, the engine and radar technology have been vastly helpful in further developing the Kaveri.

India started to make Al31F engine 100% in India since about 2012-2014 (not sure of exact date) and after then, there is no import of blades. 100% from raw materials is made in India. The technology like powder metallurgy, coating etc are greatly helpful in Kaveri development

 

[abingdonboy]

The 2 billion dollar for making an airbase is absurd. India is not a useless state that can't build a hardened bunker for aircrafts.

These base costs are about much more than building a few HAS, they will act as mini-BRDs as the Rafale is capable of undergoing all but their intensive MLU maintenence at the SQN's own base, they don't need to be flown out to a BRD or MRO centre, it can all be done in situ. This requires an immense ammount of specialist support equipment for the aircraft itself, avionics, engines etc etc to be present at the two bases.


The bases will also be hubs for all Rafales in India, they will have all relevent training and combat managment infrastucture in place. These things don't come cheap.

The Rafale is a step above any fighter aircraft the IAF has ever operated and require next gen infrastructure at their home bases to leverage the capabilities this bird brings, the IAF won't skimp.

 

[Kshithij]

These base costs are about much more than building a few HAS, they will act as mini-BRDs as the Rafale is capable of undergoing all but their intensive MLU maintenence at the SQN's own base, they don't need to be flown out to a BRD or MRO centre, it can all be done in situ. This requires an immense ammount of specialist support equipment for the aircraft itself, avionics, engines etc etc to be present at the two bases.


The bases will also be hubs for all Rafales in India, they will have all relevent training and combat managment infrastucture in place. These things don't come cheap.

The Rafale is a step above any fighter aircraft the IAF has ever operated and require next gen infrastructure at their home bases to leverage the capabilities this bird brings, the IAF won't skimp.

That is what is called offsets and ToT. France is giving significant ToT and offsets in terms of providing training to engineers, providing tooling, assisting in making of small spare parts and also stationing a supervisor in DRAL to help in the 7 year guarantee period.

The above is not about creation of hardened air shelter base but creation of technology base and infrastructure. Also, I don't understand your glorification of Rafale as some supreme plan. Indian Su30 is a fantastic plane and has a fantastic aerial capability. It is just that India needs to develop private sector at a fast rate and also get some technology in important areas for quick indigenous weapons development for which the French investment is needed.

 

[abingdonboy]

Also, I don't understand your glorification of Rafale as some supreme plan. Indian Su30 is a fantastic plane and has a fantastic aerial capability.

The kinematic performance of MKI is great for sure but in terms of technology it is disgustingly outdated,the Rafale is on another level in this regard, it is perhaps second only to the F-35 in terms of outright tech and in many cases it is a clear step ahead.

Eagerly awaiting DRDO scientists getting a look at SPECTRA.

 

[Kshithij]

The kinematic performance of MKI is great for sure but in terms of technology it is disgustingly outdated,the Rafale is on another level in this regard, it is perhaps second only to the F-35 in terms of outright tech and in many cases it is a clear step ahead.

Eagerly awaiting DRDO scientists getting a look at SPECTRA.

I think you are unaware of Russian EW or Indian EW derived from studies. Russian EW is one of the best in the world and India too has derived its EW after observing Russian ones and hence it is also state of the art. Russian IRST is also of high standards and absent in Rafale. The BARS radar of Su30 is PESA but extremely powerful, even more powerful than the AESA in RBE2 radar of Rafale. Rafale is also 1995 plane and there is nothing to boast about its superiority. The weapons package like meteor is a good sample to be studied to use in SFDR but the plane itself is not better than Su30. Su30 has also undergone as much upgradation as Rafale and there is no reaosn to call Rafae as superior

Russian Su35 is the best plane in non-5th generation planes. Su30 is its brotherly plane which is slightly less proficient but nevertheless still a beast. Rafale is bound to lose in a air to air war with Su30 if numbers are equal.

 

[proud_indian]

Security Scan - Rafale

 

[proud_indian]

@Kshithij you need to watch the programme I just posted above

@abingdonboy

 

[hit&run]

This is the real face of Congress-I propaganda machinery.

Losers are not doing politics but trying to derail the deal so that India remains weak to then buzz to bullying of China and Pakistan.

 

[WolfPack86]

List of IAF-specific modifications on Rafale

All the IAF Rafale F3-R(I) will feature a total of 14 modifications:

1) Rafael's LITENING G4 target acquisition/designation pod

2) Elbit's Targo II HMDS (also ordered by QEAF)

3) MBDA's Meteor BVRAAM and ALARM anti-radiation missile

4) Rafael's Spice-1000 standoff PGM and its related data-link

5) Quad-pack ejectors for SAAW EMP-emitting standoff DEW PGM

6) Optimisation of the M88 turbofan’s jet-fuel starter for operating in sub-zero temperatures at altitudes above 9,000 feet ASL

7) Upgraded SPECTRA EW suite to accommodate low-band, medium-band and high-band directional jammer apertures

8) Rafael's X-Guard towed-decoy and its onboard launcher

9) THALES' traffic collision avoidance system (TCAS)

10) THALES' standby radar altimeter

11) Increased capacity of onboard OBOGS;

12) Addition of weather-mapping mode of operation in the THALES-supplied RBE-2 AESA radar

13) Flight-qualification and integration of 450kg laser-guided HSLD bomb and its FOG-based INS with the Rafale’s onboard Sigma-95N RLG-INS through a MIL-STD-1553B interface

14) Modification of the Sigma-95N RLG-INS’ coupled GPS transceiver in order to receive MIL-STD PY-code coordinates from India’s NAVIC/IRNSS constellation of GPS satellites
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TejasMrca/photos/?ref=page_internal

 

[Kshithij]

Elbit's Targo II HMDS (also ordered by QEAF)

Qatar and ISrael do not make defence deals. Elbit is a defence company of Israel while QEAF is Qatar Emiri AirForce

 

[Sancho]

You can also imagine Stealthy external tanks (shape of a Scalp for exemple).

Shaping of the tank, reduces the RCS of the tank, which however is still hanging on pylons under the wings and remains to be an external payload. The better solution is the F18 CFT, that is attached to the airframe, with enough fuel capacity to replace all external fuel tanks. For Rafale it would be better to think about ways to increase internal fuel + adding CFTs, or develop larger CFTs of course.

 

[Sancho]

You hv all these ,fancy "ideas"

Nope, I have facts and official sources to back them up, that's why you always fail to make a point, because you only state your personal opinions.
Fan boys that don't know the fact of the fighter they claim to support (be it LCA, Rafale, or any other), can easily be countered, because in times of so much open source infos, it's easy to get credible info's. You just need to get over the bias.

 

[Kshithij]

Shaping of the tank, reduces the RCS of the tank, which however is still hanging on pylons under the wings and remains to be an external payload. The better solution is the F18 CFT, that is attached to the airframe, with enough fuel capacity to replace all external fuel tanks. For Rafale it would be better to think about ways to increase internal fuel + adding CFTs, or develop larger CFTs of course.

Won't the CFTs add weight to the plane and make maneuvering difficult in case of enemy missile strike? There are several issues with CFT-

1) If enemy missile is locked on at early stage of take-off, the plane can't drop the tanks and the tanks would weigh significantly as it will also contain fuel. This means that maneuverability of the plane becomes very poor and will likely get hit by the missile
2) If enemy missile strikes at later stage of flight, even though most of CFT would have been empty, the tank itself would have weight in several hundred kgs and also hinder aerodynamics of the plane. This will affect plane performance again

 

[Sancho]

I don’t know why some are simply ignoring basic economic realities.

My friend, the problem is that you are in denial of the economic reality, although the government and the IAF is clear about it for the last 4 years.

You are ignoring...

...multiple cancelled tenders
...reduction of procurement and operational costs
...official statements, that only 36 fighters will be procured for strategic purposes
...that the government would have liked to invest the MMRCA budget into MKIs and LCAs instead
...the fact that IAF is on record to have the need to make up numbers by choosing a less expensive fighters
...or that they wanted additional "36" Rafales, only "after" the SE MMRCA deal

All these are clear facts of the economic situation under the present government and by the fact that IAF can't / is not allowed to procure the numbers of Rafales they need, under the MMRCA requirement (126 to 200 fighters), because of it's cost's.

We could have bought 126, if Dassault had not messed things up and before the elections, but to reach the around 200 fighters IAF needs, Rafales high costs will "economically" play against it. In fact even DRDOs PR approach to sell LCA MK2 as a medium class fighter, is now problem, because they will try to influence the government, to buy them instead of MMRCAs and let IAF wait till 2025.


You like the Rafale as a fighter, as do I, but that doesn't mean you should ignore the reality and all the things that had chaged since 2014.
Btw, remember the high costs of the Mirage 2000 upgrade? Most of it was for Indian Specific Customizations too and look at the Darin 3 upgrade, where only a fration of the fleet gets AESA. So the numbers of the fighters and ISC have no relation, but the operational requirements of IAF are the key and they justify the costs.

 

[Sancho]

Won't the CFTs add weight to the plane and make maneuvering difficult

CTFs can't be ejected like external fuel tanks, but reportedly have minimal to no impact in drag. For weight you have to compare the CFTs against external fuel tanks + necessary pylons and even if you eject the fuel tanks, the pylons remain.

But the advantages (if available with sufficient capacity), are clear!

- reduced RCS
- increased weapon load capabilities
- increased range if combined with a centerline tank for example

For Rafale the development and testing of CFTs, was mainly aimed on increasing range for deep strikes, not to replace fuel tanks.