Know Your 'Rafale'

[blackleaf]

You won't get much cheaper if you want a frontline fighter. F-15EX costs 80 million USD per aircraft, Rafale is probably cca 100 million USD for aircraft itself... but aircraft need tools, weapons, equipment and so on.

So when you add everything together, 200 - 300 million USD per aircraft is a given. Even for something like F-16 or Gripen.

The big question is how long the 26 Rafale will take to be delivered given the current backlog in orders.

I did not want the F18 because we already operate so many different fighter aircraft and adding another one to the zoo would make the problem worse. However, the F18 had a big advantage since the line is winding down and there aren't anymore orders in the book. We could have gotten all 26 delivered by 2026.

 

[MirageBlue]

The big question is how long the 26 Rafale will take to be delivered given the current backlog in orders.

I did not want the F18 because we already operate so many different fighter aircraft and adding another one to the zoo would make the problem worse. However, the F18 had a big advantage since the line is winding down and there aren't anymore orders in the book. We could have gotten all 26 delivered by 2026.

This order may well become the catalyst to Dassault seriously pushing for an assembly line in India. It also makes the case for the Rafale for the MRFA given that India will be operating 36+26=62 Rafales in all anyway. The commonality factor will bring significant savings in spares/training/MRO etc.

Shut the Russian fighters out of the MRFA and just focus on the Rafale and F-15EX for the MRFA. Gripen E overlaps with the Tejas Mk2 and as such doesn't offer much more than the Tejas Mk2 does.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

This order may well become the catalyst to Dassault seriously pushing for an assembly line in India. It also makes the case for the Rafale for the MRFA given that India will be operating 36+26=62 Rafales in all anyway. The commonality factor will bring significant savings in spares/training/MRO etc.

Shut the Russian fighters out of the MRFA and just focus on the Rafale and F-15EX for the MRFA. Gripen E overlaps with the Tejas Mk2 and as such doesn't offer much more than the Tejas Mk2 does.

62 won't cut it, Dassault has quoted I guess multiple times that India would need to order a minimum of 100 Rafales for the production line to be shifted to India.

 

[BON PLAN]

Makes sense , I had the misconception that the this purchase is going to be cheaper given that we already operate 36 of these

All depend of the weaponery, spare parts stock, availability contract (for IAF it was a 5 years contract for at least 75% availability, including the fuel delivery !), simulators etc....

 

[BON PLAN]

Damn, more than $300 million per aircraft is F-15EX level pricing

Once again, in this case the F15EX is delivered with what kind of weapons? what availability? what freedom of use (ask UAE or Egypt if they were free to use their F16 as they want in Lybian campaign...).
F15 EX is even not FOC.

 

[BON PLAN]

the F18 had a big advantage since the line is winding down and there aren't anymore orders in the book. We could have gotten all 26 delivered by 2026.

Sure not !
3 years is the minimum lead time for the first one, and with a stabilized spare parts supply chain.
It is no more the case of SH18.
So more than 3 years to have all 26.

 

[BON PLAN]

https://aninews.in/news/national/general-news/india-gives-letter-of-request-to-france-for-buying-26-rafale-m-fighter-jets-for-navy20231027220359/

 

[MirageBlue]

62 won't cut it, Dassault has quoted I guess multiple times that India would need to order a minimum of 100 Rafales for the production line to be shifted to India.

62 (36+26) will be the number in IAF and IN service. That is what I was pointing out.

But Dassault will have a problem on it's hand. With large backlogs to deliver, will they be able to scale up their assembly rate even higher? If not, the IN is not going to be happy if their first Rafale Ds (I'm assuming they'll deliver D variant first) cannot be delivered 3 years after contract signature.

If Dassault can't deliver these 3 years from contract signature, they'll need to carefully look at doing that in India. It'll put them in almost pole position to bag the MRFA with a local assembly line, 2 bases with Rafale infra, simulators, training, pool of IAF and IN pilots...

 

[BON PLAN]

The major innovation of the Rafale F4 standard.

On March 13, 2023, the French defense procurement agency (Direction Générale de l'Armement - DGA) declared the Rafale fighter's F4.1 standard qualified, ushering in the era of collaborative air combat. This new standard brings major capability evolutions in the field of air combat:

• Integration of the Scorpion helmet-mounted sight.
• Improvements in fire control for the Meteor missile (missile managed by an aircraft other than the firing aircraft).
• Evolution of passive threat detection algorithms.
• Integration of the 1,000 kg GPS/laser-guided AASM weapon.
• New functions for Talios, OSF and RBE2 sensors.
• First developments in connectivity, with enhanced data exchange capabilities between Rafales and greater protection against cyber threats.

Focus on Rafale communications and connectivity

If the legacy Rafale were to have just one flaw, it would probably be its radio. Without being catastrophic, it seems to fall far short of today's standards in terms of signal power and clarity. With the F4 standard, the Rafale will finally be equipped with an all-new digital communications system that should improve pilots' situational awareness, even in electronically contested environments. In many ways, this is the real raison d'être of the F4 standard:

• The aircraft have been fitted with CONTACT software-defined radios, the new standard used by the French armed forces to enable the various players in theater to share a common operational picture.
• A new tactical intra-patrol data link, discrete and directional, has been integrated on the Rafale F4, alongside the current L-16. This link is based on three-dimensional waveforms (FO3D) generated by digital synthesis.
• Rafale F4s are equipped with a military-grade, encrypted, discrete, SYRACUSE IV-compatible SATCOM at the base of the vertical stabilizer.
• In addition to the existing data links, the management of these communication packages has been entrusted to a new generation of communication servers, simplifying the crew's task while ensuring data encryption and cyber-protection.

All this equipment makes it possible to create genuine communication networks not only within a Rafale patrol, but also, via SATCOM and CONTACT, across an entire theater of operations. Each pilot thus has access to an extended tactical situation, enabling long-distance networked combat, even in complex environments. Rafales can also be used as radio relays between ground troops and metropolitan decision-making centers, or to monitor the evolution of a tactical situation live from the very start of their transit phase.

 

[BON PLAN]

4,6 Md€ pour les prochaines versions du Rafale et le Neuron seront investis par la France d’ici à 2030.

France will invest €4.6 billion between now and 2030 in the next versions of the Rafale and the Neuron.
October 12, 2023

Contents

• Rafale F4.2 postponed to 2025
• Investment in the Rafale F5 begins in 2024.
• 128 m Neuron successor to be designed in 2024
• France will invest €11.76 billion in the Rafale program up to 2030.
• 1.36 bn for the SCAF from 2024 to 2026

French fighter format still in line with 2013 White Paper

For Eric Trappier, Dassault's priority today is the Rafale program and its future developments, not the European SCAF program, whose entry-into-service deadline is now 2045. At least, that's how he put it in an interview with BFM Business last August.

At the time, one might have thought that this statement was part of the ongoing tug-of-war between Dassault and the French Ministry of the Armed Forces, with the industrial split and its necessary concessions within the European program in the background, as well as the arrival of Belgium.

As the weeks went by, however, it became clear that the positions of the two French protagonists were much more aligned than they had appeared, with a clear ambition on the part of the Ministry of the Armed Forces to support the Rafale's future development.

Rafale F4.2 postponed to 2025

Indeed, for the Ministry of the Armed Forces, the Rafale F4, and above all the F5 version, scheduled for 2030, are intended both to modernize and extend the capabilities of the French air force, and to bolster the attractiveness and competitiveness of the French aircraft on a high-demand international stage.

Clearly, the Hôtel de Brienne (political headquarters of the Ministry of the Armed Forces) has decided to put its money where its mouth is. According to an article published by the business website La Tribune, it plans to invest no less than €4.6 billion between now and 2030 to upgrade the French fighter and develop a combat drone based on the Neuron demonstrator.

For the Ministry, Dassault Aviation, Safran, Thales, MBDA and the 400 or so subcontractors involved in the Rafale program, the aim is to complete the development of the F4.2 standard, which must, among other things, see its means of suppressing opposing defenses, including its anti-aircraft defense, greatly improved in response to the lessons learned from the war in Ukraine.

Initially scheduled for 2024, final qualification of the Rafale F4.2 has been pushed back to 2025, while the first F4.1s have already begun to be employed by the French Air Force.

It should be noted, however, that the Rafale aircraft to be delivered in 2023 and 2024 - i.e. 26 aircraft for the AAE - will be of the F3R standard. They will then be upgraded to the new standard, as will the entire fleet.

Investment in the Rafale F5 will start in 2024.

But the real leap forward, which can even be described as a reboot for Anglicists, and a rebirth for Francophiles, will be the F5 version, which promises to equip the aircraft by 2030 with certain capabilities that are more expected of 5ᵉ and 6ᵉ generation fighters.

MBDA remote carrier expendable

Some programs, such as MBDA's Remote Carrier Expendable, originally planned as part of the European program, have probably been switched to the Rafale F5 program, whose ambitions were revised upwards in the 2024-2030 LPM.

In addition to a new RBE2 XG radar currently under development, the Rafale F5 will be able to control and operate combat UAVs, such as MBDA's Remote Carrier Expendable, and above all the French Loyal Wingman program announced in LPM 2024-2030, based on the Neuron demonstrator.

Design of the 128-m Neuron successor in 2024

Equipped and supported in this way, the Rafale F5 will be able to operate in a contested environment like the American F-35, while benefiting from a number of advantages that are unique to it in terms of endurance, performance and implementation costs.

To this end, the design of the Neuron's successor will receive a budget of €128m from 2024, to which will be added €212m devoted to research and development work on the F5 standard, for a grand total of €340m devoted to the F5 in 2024 alone.

 

[blackleaf]

Sure not !
3 years is the minimum lead time for the first one, and with a stabilized spare parts supply chain.
It is no more the case of SH18.
So more than 3 years to have all 26.

26 by '26: India has a chance to get new naval fighters quickly, with Boeing's Super Hornet production ending | StratPost

26 by '26: India has a chance to get new naval fighters quickly, with Boeing's Super Hornet production ending | StratPost

stratpost.com

Boeing to stop production of F/A-18 Super Hornet jets in 2025

Boeing Co said on Thursday it plans to stop production of the F/A-18 Super Hornet in late 2025 after delivering the last of the fighter jets, as the aerospace giant shifts focus to winning the race for the sixth-generation of combat aircraft. The company said it expects to hire more workers and...

www.reuters.com

"Feb 23 (Reuters) - Boeing Co (BA.N) said on Thursday it plans to stop production of the F/A-18 Super Hornet in late 2025 after delivering the last of the fighter jets, as the aerospace giant shifts focus to winning the race for the sixth-generation of combat aircraft. .........
It said production of the F/A-18 jet, which debuted in 1983, could be extended until 2027 if the Super Hornet is selected by the Indian Navy for its future fighter."

The F18 line does not have any more orders past 2025 so it would have been able to complete the entire Indian order by 2027 .

 

[bhramos]

 

[BON PLAN]

 

[vin bharat mahan]

these missiles should definitely integrate with rafale:-
1:- astra 1 BVR missile (110 km range).
2:- astra 2 (160 km range) upcoming.
3:- astra 3 (200+ km range) development.
4:- SAAW anti airfield missile (100 km range).
5:- brahmos ng (300 km range) development.
6:- rudram 1 anti radiation missile (150-200 km range)
7:- rudram 2 (300 km range) development.
8:- rudram 3 (500 km range) development.
9:- SLCM based air launch cruise missile (500 km) development.
10:- israeli rampage missile air launched rocket system (200-250 km).
11:- scalp missile (500 km).
12:- NASM - (MR nd LR) naval anti ship missile (300 km approx) development.

 

[prateikf]

Interesting article on Dassault’s offer of Mirage-2000 and Rafale way back in 2004.

Rafale Jets: Why India "Rejected" French Aircraft Way Back in 2004 At 25% Of The Costs; Is Acquisition Policy To Be Blamed?

OPED By Group Cpt TP Srivastava (Retired), Indian Air Force January 31, 2012, was a day of celebration for French aviation giant Dassault Aviation. They were declared the winner of an Indian Air Force tender to buy 126 Rafale fighter aircraft – 18 in fly-away condition and a balance of 108 to be...

www.eurasiantimes.com

 

[BON PLAN]

Interesting article on Dassault’s offer of Mirage-2000 and Rafale way back in 2004.

Rafale Jets: Why India "Rejected" French Aircraft Way Back in 2004 At 25% Of The Costs; Is Acquisition Policy To Be Blamed?

OPED By Group Cpt TP Srivastava (Retired), Indian Air Force January 31, 2012, was a day of celebration for French aviation giant Dassault Aviation. They were declared the winner of an Indian Air Force tender to buy 126 Rafale fighter aircraft – 18 in fly-away condition and a balance of 108 to be...

www.eurasiantimes.com

Dassault and the french government lose the first try to sell Rafale in Morocco, 2007.
If this deal was inked, the export career of the bird would have been far more brilliant.

India 2004 : the Rafale was only in a F2 std. Too short to be very attractive.

 

[jouy31]

Indonesia signs for the third and final batch of 18 Dassault Rafale aircraft, bringing the total to 42, as originally announced.

Indonesia signs for third tranche of 18 Dassault Rafale fighters

Indonesia has finalised a deal covering the last batch of Dassault Aviation Rafale fighters to be ordered via a three-phase acquisition totalling 42 aircraft.

www.flightglobal.com

 

[MirageBlue]

Indonesia signs for the third and final batch of 18 Dassault Rafale aircraft, bringing the total to 42, as originally announced.

Indonesia signs for third tranche of 18 Dassault Rafale fighters

Indonesia has finalised a deal covering the last batch of Dassault Aviation Rafale fighters to be ordered via a three-phase acquisition totalling 42 aircraft.

www.flightglobal.com

Indonesians are strange. Here is their current procurement "plan"

- 12 second hand Mirage-2000-5s from Qatar for $800 million as a stop gap measure till the Rafales arrive (that deal is now stalled due to lack of money)
- 42 Rafales F4s
- Signed a letter of intent to purchase up to 24 F-15EX
- Partner on the KF-21 program (although they're way behind on their share of payments) and generally expected to acquire at least 50 KF-21s.

That's 4 different new programs, in addition to their F-16s and Su-27 and Su-30s. Plus they have a small number of KAI T-50s for the AJT/LIFT role.

Just so strange to see them planning to spread their money around so many programs. Especially the F-15EX, which makes no sense at all when they have committed to 42 Rafales! And to think people criticize Indian procurement programs.

 

[shade]

Indonesians are strange. Here is their current procurement "plan"

- 12 second hand Mirage-2000-5s from Qatar for $800 million as a stop gap measure till the Rafales arrive (that deal is now stalled due to lack of money)
- 42 Rafales F4s
- Signed a letter of intent to purchase up to 24 F-15EX
- Partner on the KF-21 program (although they're way behind on their share of payments) and generally expected to acquire at least 50 KF-21s.

That's 4 different new programs, in addition to their F-16s and Su-27 and Su-30s. Plus they have a small number of KAI T-50s for the AJT/LIFT role.

Just so strange to see them planning to spread their money around so many programs. Especially the F-15EX, which makes no sense at all when they have committed to 42 Rafales! And to think people criticize Indian procurement programs.

Nothing strange, these are just bribes paid to the manufacturer countries for their "phool sapport" to sections of the Indonesian economy/govt.
They don't have any hard requirement of having a migthy armed forces because they don't have proper enemies around them so this sort of scattered procurement works for them.

Our country also does this, giving bribes to Shyam Kaka by purchasing chinkook, p-8 poseidon, C-17 etc non-violent platforms, since all the numerous and very violent platforms are provided by Ivan or Jean-Pierre

 

[MirageBlue]

@BON PLAN any idea about the 30 former French AF, used Mirages that the IAF bought? It has been reported that they're looking at acquiring even more twin seat Mirage-2000s from France.