Kaveri Engine

[rudresh]

Your doing your Kindergarten?

Well well well.........I am not so tender to attend kinder ..........Godless don't be careless.

 

[p2prada]

India had sanctioned the Kaveri engine development project on Mar 30, 1989, with a probable date of completion in December 1996 and a cost of Rs.382.81 crore. The project cost was later revised to Rs.2,839 crore.

I stand corrected. It is not $2Billion. But, that figure is only until 2012 and not beyond, even for K-9.

this is worst even by kaveri standards dont compare to AL31.

No. Currently where the K-9 stands, the fuel efficiency is even less than M-53. You are comparing the M-53 figures with the specifications that are currently the "goal" for K-9 program. K-9 us yet to achieve it's goal.

Ask europeans if they are ready to completely manufacture the EJ200 engine in india from raw materials including the core........the answer will be NO

Yes they are. Actually the EF Consortium want us to manufacture for others as well. They were the first to offer the Single Crystal Blade technology among all the competitors except the Russians.

You dont want kaveri or semiindegeneous kaveri2 what do u want ...........import the whole engine...... american solution or else import m88-4 ECO french idea.

You are not understanding the point of the debate. The point was whether the Kaveri is a failed program or not. It has nothing to do with what I want. The point I am trying to prove is our own core design has been discarded for an import which puts a question mark on the program's future.

As a taxpayer, I am willing to allow GTRE try again on a whole new design after K-9 and K-10 has been concluded. We cannot rely on K-9 as it no longer fits requirements. We cannot rely on K-10 as it is not our own design. So, the only recourse left is for an alternate design which can be taken up after the K-10 design has been frozen and starts tests. This is the only way to build on our own engine tech. We can use the new engine design as an upgrade to the AMCA when it comes up for MLU or even on our own version of a Heavy UCAV after AMCA project.

Neither French, Americans nor Europeans like k9 who r u........... or it hurts bad when k9 bites is it so.......

The entire statement does not make any sense.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

^Single Crystal is already manufactured in India. The cost of 2billion is over stated as always.

Also no one will give full ToT, even the Su-30mki engine has to go back to Russia if there is a repair.

EJ is already set up manufacturing plants in Britian and Germany. Europeans have invested in that and they wont allow jobs to go to India.

 

[rudresh]

Ok prada to some extent what u r telling about kaveri is right some more things should be considered with it one such thing is ....that we can manage the engine with some more indegeneous efforts to a good extent.

You are not understanding the point of the debate. The point was whether the Kaveri is a failed program or not. It has nothing to do with what I want. The point I am trying to prove is our own core design has been discarded for an import which puts a question mark on the program's future.

No kaveri core will be alive in one form or the other, our own core design has not been discarded it is being completely validated in Russia.This low bypass core has helped them to know what to do in their next gen engine and they have a very good grasp on the situation.
They want to develop high bypass engines for civilian jets after this.Those and others will have in future will be having contributions from kaveri .....in no way the design knowledge will be lost but it may undergo some modifications due to do's and dont's acquired by foreign engine houses for a long time. As a whole this effort is not a complete failure ......instead of a politician eating it without any use it is much much better served.



http://frontierindia.net/demonstration-of-12-mw-kaveri-marine-gas-turbine-for-indian-navy

Now no one can dare so much to completely take india so lightly as before to completely block some ......tom **** and harry thing in an engine ....if u dont do that for me ........i will take u for a ride with spares like russians.

See americans denied us super computers ........now see where we are poised .....we dont ask americans for supercomputers..............now every country will feel such a heat when doing so.....and do not think to get into such stupitidity.

more over it has some more contributions to other programmes .......my one tree ....many fruits analogy here is the link

DRDO works on National Mission for developing AFV engines - Frontier India - News, Analysis, Opinion


CVRDE had earlier developed a 1500 hp air cooled engine that did not meet the required paramaters. It was a 12 cylinder, direct injection, V 120 degree, turbocharged, charge air-cooled, 30 liter air cooled engine. All components, including fuel injection system and toolings were indigenous and developed in-house at CVRDE {may be due to materials developed for kaveri}. A power output of 520 hp was demonstrated in naturally aspirated version and 880 hp was demonstrated with medium pressure turbocharging. The cylinder head could not dissipate required heat. Since it involved extensive modifications, the development was not pursued.

CVRDE had re-configured air-filtration system and cooling system of the 1400 hp MTU powerpack used in Arjun Tank. In association with the OEM, CVRDE made extensive improvements on the MTU engine. It included air-filtration system, cooling system, fuel system, and ruggedization.

CVRDE has also upgraded the T-72 M1 engine (V46-6) from 780 hp to 1000 hp. The upgrade included advanced materials and modifying the peripheral systems. One of the prototype engine has completed 400 hours of endurance testing in the test bed. The prototypes have been integrated to T-72 tanks and extensive field trials are being conducted to check the life of the engine, reliability and cooling performance. The field evaluation is in the advanced stage.


These are the offshoots which have some immense effects on india, indian economy and to its friends and has added to worries for its enemies ........and jaw trapping friends like americans.

What happens if they suceed tomorrow .........we will neither be on any side to survive........a condition which leads to collaberation with foreign companies ......to sell their wares on the face of friendship.

once some product is developed indians are much much better in the whole world in making it better and better by the days thereafter.......see the green pine radar situation.

We saw kaveri .....blade issues .....a lot of failures ......now a respectable 75kn that too flat rated ......they are recovering fast.....very very fast.

Now facilities available in some developed nations will arrive in india .......a country with super power aspirations will not wait for the whole world and it will make what ever it wants to get it right ......wheather it is kaveri or cryogenic ...........see USA and USSR,when there is competition and necessity...........fire under backside it will find a way.

A project of this complexity cannot be judged as a failure so early and easily is my idea.

 

[rudresh]

^single crystal is already manufactured in india. The cost of 2billion is over stated as always.

Ej is already set up manufacturing plants in britian and germany. Europeans have invested in that and they wont allow jobs to go to india.

U GOT IT RIGHT, HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD,THE REAL TRUTH,WHAT EVER IT MAY BE EVERY CONTRY IS FOR THEIR OWN GOOD AT THE END OF THE DAY.

Also no one will give full tot, even the su-30mki engine has to go back to russia if there is a repair.

That is not the case for the present situation,the AL31FP engine is completely manufactured in india,at koraput from raw materials supplied from russia in case if they stop raw material supply that might be true.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

U GOT IT RIGHT, HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD,THE REAL TRUTH,WHAT EVER IT MAY BE EVERY CONTRY IS FOR THEIR OWN GOOD AT THE END OF THE DAY.

Also no one will give full tot, even the su-30mki engine has to go back to russia if there is a repair.

That is not the case for the present situation,the AL31FP engine is completely manufactured in india,at koraput from raw materials supplied from russia in case if they stop raw material supply that might be true.

Your colors are blinding me, you can make a point without highlighting it with blood red.

The AL-31FP is assembled in India but many of the major components like the compressor core, fuel pumps come from Russia. If there is a repair just because we assemble it does not mean we can repair it, they will have to ship the whole engine back. This was verified by the Indo-US air exercise incident where an American commander made fun of it in his interview. I will quote what he said from my memory, "They where afraid of fog and debris in the runway, they had a problem with engines where if it gets blown they have to take to India and send from there to Russia". The American pilots where all wooo and ahh full of surprise.

I will add the video, if you haven't seen it. Watch from 1:00

 

[gogbot]

Your colors are blinding me, you can make a point without highlighting it with blood red.

The AL-31FP is assembled in India but many of the major components like the compressor core, fuel pumps come from Russia. If there is a repair just because we assemble it does not mean we can repair it, they will have to ship the whole engine back. This was verified by the Indo-US air exercise incident where an American commander made fun of it in his interview. I will quote what he said from my memory, "They where afraid of fog and debris in the runway, they had a problem with engines where if it gets blown they have to take to India and send from there to Russia". The American pilots where all wooo and ahh full of surprise.

I will add the video, if you haven't seen it. Watch from 1:00

Nothing was "confirmed" in that video.

Just because an ameircan who was not involved in red flag exercises , says somethign does not make it accurate or true.

He made a number of coments some of which are just not true.
for example , Mig-21's do not use israili jamming pods , they use russian ones.

Secondly even back then there were articlies that debunked some of his statements , such as the one where we send the engine back to Russia.

His words are not gospel and you don't have to be his sheep. try to actually look into some of his statements.

and that video more than 2 years old at this point. stuff has already changed on the ground.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Nothing was "confirmed" in that video.

Just because an ameircan who was not involved in red flag exercises , says somethign does not make it accurate or true.

He made a number of coments some of which are just not true.
for example , Mig-21's do not use israili jamming pods , they use russian ones.

Secondly even back then there were articlies that debunked some of his statements , such as the one where we send the engine back to Russia.

His words are not gospel and you don't have to be his sheep. try to actually look into some of his statements.

and that video more than 2 years old at this point. stuff has already changed on the ground.

Before posting please do everyone a favor and read up.

BHARAT RAKSHAK MONITOR: Volume 5(1)

The ELTA 8222 "Self Protection Pod" is a power-managed jammer with an ESM receiver integrated into the pod. It is reportedly being used on fighters and Jaguar aircraft of the IAF and IN respectively. The pod contains antennae on the forward and aft parts of the pod, which receive the hostile RF signal, and after processing deliver the appropriate response.

Also no country will give up its complete ToT and risk losing its sales potential. If they sell the technology to make the engine, how would they be able to sell us future aircrafts, if we can manufacture everything ourself? Please dont bring in silly counter arguments like we are not like Chinese. We dont spend billions on ToT to not use it after purchase.

 

[p2prada]

The news about AL-31 being sent to Russia for repairs was true in 2008. At the time India did not have repair and overhaul facilities for Al-31. Now we do, so case closed.

We manufacture the Al-31FP from ground up. The entire ToT for its production including it's hot end components have been transferred and are being made in India.

The EJ-200 and M-88-3 are also set to be fully transferred to India. This includes the hot end components along with single crystal blades and the FADEC source codes.

 

[rudresh]

The news about AL-31 being sent to Russia for repairs was true in 2008. At the time India did not have repair and overhaul facilities for Al-31. Now we do, so case closed.

We manufacture the Al-31FP from ground up. The entire ToT for its production including it's hot end components have been transferred and are being made in India.

Well said thanks for putting a full stop for the unwanted argument.............some times precition drone attacks like that helps to nip the war in the bud.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

The news about AL-31 being sent to Russia for repairs was true in 2008. At the time India did not have repair and overhaul facilities for Al-31. Now we do, so case closed.

We manufacture the Al-31FP from ground up. The entire ToT for its production including it's hot end components have been transferred and are being made in India.

The EJ-200 and M-88-3 are also set to be fully transferred to India. This includes the hot end components along with single crystal blades and the FADEC source codes.

Some source for this?

The french made Sakthi engine was not fully transferred, they will never transfer full ToT.

 

[p2prada]

Some source for this?

Type "AL-31FP India Deep ToT" and you will get your answer. This news is years old.

Deep ToT included transfer of Single Crystal Blades from Russia. It took 5 years to happen. Last year a news article came out about an interview with HAL chairman who was quoted saying Russian's have transferred a deep ToT of the MKI. Everything is being done at Koraput facility now. He clearly said, everything right from nuts and bolts of the AL-31FP will be made in India using raw materials sourced from local industry.

The first fully indigenous engine is supposed to have undergone tests this year. 2011 was the end date for indigenous AL-31FP to be fully operational in IAF.

The french made Sakthi engine was not fully transferred, they will never transfer full ToT.

What do you expect? We have only a few hundred orders which aren't even concrete, even with LCH included. You think HAL will pay money for ToT with small orders. We cannot afford it. As of today we have enough ToT on Arriden enough to make operational changes, not enough to make the engine from scratch. This is more than enough. Once Dhruv and LCH orders go above 1000, then it makes economic sense to go for full ToT as the project would be over $10Billion then.

Anybody is willing to deep transfer for the right price. The MKI project was over $12Billion while MRCA is set to be even higher. It makes economic and operational sense to go for ToT.

But then how should I know, I am, after all, a retarded bastard and what not?

 

[p2prada]

Only radar is not made in India along with some airframe parts as the IAF wanted to cut short manufacturing by 4 years. They wanted 230 MKIs by 2014-15 instead of 2018-19. Now the new 42 orders will be completed by then. We can build 42 in 3 years.

But we have full ToT for radar and the entire airframe as well. Especially after signing the FGFA agreement, there are no issues at all when it comes to ToT from Russia. They have changed their laws specifically to cater to India's needs. No matter what people say, the Russians are giving us full ToT for FGFA as well. Plenty of naysayers, but it cannot be helped. Heck they even allowed us to lease 2 of their nuclear submarines since 1988. They have even helped us build our own nuke sub as well.

As for T-90, ToT for armour was never negotiated nor paid for. Only gun barrel and other technologies and those have been transferred, although there were some delays since they could not amend their laws by then.

Brahmos, seeker and airframe ToT has already been done. The propulsion ToT seems to be stuck for some reason. Bureaucratic reasons or whether they are unwilling to give it is yet to be seen. The Russians were ready to give us their Cryogenic engine ToT as well, when we had ordered a number of those engines. But the MTCR came in the way and the US disallowed ToT. Russia persisted and at least managed to sell the engines without ToT. Perhaps RAMjet engines come in to the picture with the many treatise they have signed with the US. Another reason may be that we may not need the RAM jet technology. We have already achieved some experience with RAMjet on Akash and are already working on SCRAMjet, so it seems it may be cheaper to not involve ourselves with negotiating at their terms. The development of the SCRAMjet Brahmos is being done with Russia in Hyderabad itself. So, there is no issue of not having ToT for this new engine. There are rumours of a new RAMjet powered long range CM as well. So, no worries.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Would you just stop pulling information right out of your ass and post some links to substantiate this.

 

[p2prada]

Would you just stop pulling information right out of your ass and post some links to substantiate this.

Info out of my azz is certainly enough for you. Keep up with news. I don't spoon feed. This forum itself is a good enough place to start. Go back to the first page of Su-30MKI thread and read it. All the articles, news and answers are there within this very forum.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Info out of my azz is certainly enough for you. Keep up with news. I don't spoon feed. This forum itself is a good enough place to start. Go back to the first page of Su-30MKI thread and read it. All the articles, news and answers are there within this very forum.

This is just to fool the media, in reality just like 'our' Sakthi engine had nothing to with us. This has to be like your info that they spent 2billion on development on kaveri! No one can give full ToT for engines, those are critical areas which allow a nation to maintain the lead, so that they can exploit the poorer nation. DRDO is not comeing clean on the issue and i dont need to provide facts either.

 

[p2prada]

I have a quoted statement from the top executive of HAL confirming what I said. It is a Hindu article. I don't spoon feed, so find it on your own.

I have already given enough clues.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

I have a quoted statement from the top executive of HAL confirming what I said. It is a Hindu article. I don't spoon feed, so find it on your own.

I have already given enough clues.

HAL director also said Dhruv is completely Indian and denied CAGs observation. This is not called spoon feeding, this is called backing your statement other wise any fool can get away with any comment.

 

[p2prada]

HAL director also said Dhruv is completely Indian and denied CAGs observation. This is not called spoon feeding, this is called backing your statement other wise any fool can get away with any comment.

Ah! Then please point me to the HAL director's comments and CAGs observations. Let's see how much info a civilian institution has regarding a defence project.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Ah! Then please point me to the HAL director's comments and CAGs observations. Let's see how much info a civilian institution has regarding a defence project.

I think you have an right to exist as an troll but from now on i wont take your childish rambling seriously.


The source shows HAL justifying the 90% criticism. At the end of the day the engine is foreign with an Indian name. I am sure you would like that bit where it says foreign.
Broadsword: In Siachen, Dhruv proves a world-beater