Kaveri Engine

[Lonewolf]

I'm very poor in metallurgy, so can anyone explain me why Tungsten super alloys aren't used for turbine blade applications ??

Grain boundary formation

 

[Vamsi]

Grain boundary formation

Is it difficult to make the SC cast of W Alloy??

 

[Lonewolf]

Is it difficult to make the SC cast of W Alloy??

Read about cooling of tungsten and it's fluidity , and whether it will allow those micro veins for cooling

 

[Whitecollar]

phoren engine screw drivered in India with Indian name

If so, then why not fund GE rather for making their F414 EPE version capable of upto 120kN thrust instead? I mean they've been openly advertising that fact in their GEF414 brochures...if at all, screw driver giri is all that out Govt wants in this whole deal then why not with World's best. I guess after that and a couple 100s of engine orders, US may let us in on some of their hot section secrets of their older 404,414 derivatives...

 

[Javelin_Sam]

Eurojet engine will be a cesspit. It is a colab of several European nations. The critical turbine blades are all from MTU Germany. It will be a diplomatic nightmare to manage

 

[Vamsi]

US may let us in on some of their hot section secrets of their older 404,414 derivatives...

Even if you buy 1 million engines it won't happen.

 

[Vamsi]

If so, then why not fund GE rather for making their F414 EPE version capable of upto 120kN thrust instead? I mean they've been openly advertising that fact in their GEF414 brochures...if at all, screw driver giri is all that out Govt wants in this whole deal then why not with World's best. I guess after that and a couple 100s of engine orders, US may let us in on some of their hot section secrets of their older 404,414 derivatives...

Let me tell you in a simple way whats gonna happen

before the deal:
MoD babus: We want the "Know-how" , "Know-why" & IPR of the 110KN engine.
Phoren babus: India will get IPR of the 110KN engine, but give us billions of dollars.
MoD babus: Ok
Indian twitter: Yoo,see Zooropeans giving us IPR, so called best friend Russia gave nothing.

signs the deal and after milking billions of dollars for 10 years

MoD babus: You gave us the "Know-how".,where is the "know-why"?
Phoren babus: Can't give "know-why",its secret. We will supply you Hot section & you can export it to anyone you want.
MoD babus: But you promised the "Know-why"
Phoren babus: Probably you misheard us, we never promised it, its up to you now whether you want to import our hot section or not.
MoD babus: Can we atleast screwdriver it in India and call it with an Indian name so that we can fool our people by claiming it as Indigenous just like the Shakti helo engine.
Phoren babus: Yes you can.


Thus after 10 years a consortium of Indian public,private & phoren company screwdrivers the 110KN engine named as "GANGA".

Indian twitter: Yoo, Porkies we have an Indigenous jet engine.
Some whistleblower: It's not indigenous,its screwdrivered, we are importing hot section from Zoorope.
Indian twitter: Britfags fooled us reeeeee

 

[Whitecollar]

Let me tell you in a simple way whats gonna happen

before the deal:
MoD babus: We want the "Know-how" , "Know-why" & IPR of the 110KN engine.
Phoren babus: India will get IPR of the 110KN engine, but give us billions of dollars.
MoD babus: Ok
Indian twitter: Yoo,see Zooropeans giving us IPR, so called best friend Russia gave nothing.

signs the deal and after milking billions of dollars for 10 years

MoD babus: You gave us the "Know-how".,where is the "know-why"?
Phoren babus: Can't give "know-why",its secret. We will supply you Hot section & you can export it to anyone you want.
MoD babus: But you promised the "Know-why"
Phoren babus: Probably you misheard us, we never promised it, its up to you now whether you want to import our hot section or not.
MoD babus: Can we atleast screwdriver it in India and call it with an Indian name so that we can fool our people by claiming it as Indigenous just like the Shakti helo engine.
Phoren babus: Yes you can.


Thus after 10 years a consortium of Indian public,private & phoren company screwdrivers the 110KN engine named as "GANGA".

Indian twitter: Yoo, Porkies we have an Indigenous jet engine.
Some whistleblower: It's not indigenous,its screwdrivered, we are importing hot section from Zoorope.
Indian twitter: Britfags fooled us reeeeee

I never said US would give you the know why but some insight maybe as to where to start off. Then it would be completely on MoD whether to trust DRDO engineers and scientists with the revival project and based on what MoD has actually spent on Kaveri, I highly doubt such a thing will even be entertained. Moreover, wasn't Safran doing the same with Kaveri's "revival" contract?

Plus this is the single most technology as of yet that can't even be achieved thru espionage as Chinkies have already tried and failed multiple times. Makes me angry and saddened at the same time...if these idiot babus and MoD had even the slightest of ideas, they would've cleared 1-2 FTBs as the 1st step.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Eurojet engine will be a cesspit. It is a colab of several European nations. The critical turbine blades are all from MTU Germany. It will be a diplomatic nightmare to manage

Only country worth buying from Europe is France.....rest are anti Hindu/India and clusterfucks....German weapons are something to stay away from. Overhyped like their bmw and audi trash

 

[omaebakabaka]

Let me tell you in a simple way whats gonna happen

before the deal:
MoD babus: We want the "Know-how" , "Know-why" & IPR of the 110KN engine.
Phoren babus: India will get IPR of the 110KN engine, but give us billions of dollars.
MoD babus: Ok
Indian twitter: Yoo,see Zooropeans giving us IPR, so called best friend Russia gave nothing.

signs the deal and after milking billions of dollars for 10 years

MoD babus: You gave us the "Know-how".,where is the "know-why"?
Phoren babus: Can't give "know-why",its secret. We will supply you Hot section & you can export it to anyone you want.
MoD babus: But you promised the "Know-why"
Phoren babus: Probably you misheard us, we never promised it, its up to you now whether you want to import our hot section or not.
MoD babus: Can we atleast screwdriver it in India and call it with an Indian name so that we can fool our people by claiming it as Indigenous just like the Shakti helo engine.
Phoren babus: Yes you can.


Thus after 10 years a consortium of Indian public,private & phoren company screwdrivers the 110KN engine named as "GANGA".

Indian twitter: Yoo, Porkies we have an Indigenous jet engine.
Some whistleblower: It's not indigenous,its screwdrivered, we are importing hot section from Zoorope.
Indian twitter: Britfags fooled us reeeeee

One more key fact is when you buy something in fundamental layer even with know why, it is not going to yield any positive results in a country like India. May be in future but not now....everything is mostly fundamental in aircraft engines and no amount of purchase will give you path forward. We have to learn it with baby steps and hard work and failures. Some pointers and experiences is what we may be getting in the best of the deals.

 

[Vamsi]

One more key fact is when you buy something in fundamental layer even with know why, it is not going to yield any positive results in a country like India. May be in future but not now....everything is mostly fundamental in aircraft engines and no amount of purchase will give you path forward. We have to learn it with baby steps and hard work and failures. Some pointers and experiences is what we may be getting in the best of the deals.

In my opinion,whether we get "know-why" or not, we should not stop working on Kaveri, just because of this 110KN engine deal,if we stop working on improving the Kaveri, then we can say goodbye to Aatmanirbharata......

I bet there would always be one or two babus be it from MoD or DRDO or from Armed Forces who will say " Why waste money on Kaveri, we already got tech from this JV naa"

 

[omaebakabaka]

In my opinion,whether we get "know-why" or not, we should not stop working on Kaveri, just because of this 110KN engine deal,if we stop working on improving the Kaveri, then we can say goodbye to Aatmanirbharata......

This is the key, as long as kaveri progress continues and the output of that even at drones level would be an accomplishment. At somepoint, output will be significant and from there incremental updates to catch up.....Except for China, India is the only recent entry into Aircraft engines without a legacy. May be SK is another candidate that may go for it but they have no need to pursue as they will never get to that scale of needing one...

 

[Vamsi]

@omaebakabaka @Lonewolf please check my calculations, I tried to calculate the thrust of theoretical High bypass turbofan engine using Kaveri's core with core mass flow=67.2Kg/s, OPR= 25, BPR=3, Total Mass flow= 268Kg/s, TeT = 1500K, I got 94KN thrust

 

[Abdus Salem killed]

@omaebakabaka @Lonewolf please check my calculations, I tried to calculate the thrust of theoretical High bypass turbofan engine using Kaveri's core with core mass flow=67.2Kg/s, OPR= 25, BPR=3, Total Mass flow= 268Kg/s, TeT = 1500K, I got 94KN thrust

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Fkn hell your math is strong bro

 

[Vamsi]

@omaebakabaka @Lonewolf please check my calculations, I tried to calculate the thrust of theoretical High bypass turbofan engine using Kaveri's core with core mass flow=67.2Kg/s, OPR= 25, BPR=3, Total Mass flow= 268Kg/s, TeT = 1500K, I got 94KN thrust

View attachment 177677

View attachment 177680

View attachment 177684

By increasing TET to 1700K and by increasing BPR to 5, it can achieve 130KN & if we can increase OPR to 30, it can reach more than 150KN.

 

[SKC]

@omaebakabaka @Lonewolf please check my calculations, I tried to calculate the thrust of theoretical High bypass turbofan engine using Kaveri's core with core mass flow=67.2Kg/s, OPR= 25, BPR=3, Total Mass flow= 268Kg/s, TeT = 1500K, I got 94KN thrust

View attachment 177677

View attachment 177680

View attachment 177684

View attachment 177730

 

[amit6371]

@omaebakabaka @Lonewolf please check my calculations, I tried to calculate the thrust of theoretical High bypass turbofan engine using Kaveri's core with core mass flow=67.2Kg/s, OPR= 25, BPR=3, Total Mass flow= 268Kg/s, TeT = 1500K, I got 94KN thrust

View attachment 177677

View attachment 177680

View attachment 177684

I am working on Gas Turbines in a top MNC. Let me share some insights from my experience.
1. Most of the equations we use for ideal conditions remain invalid. Even the air properties like Cp, K, Mu, etc are functions of temperatures. The isentropic process does not exist in real life. You got to face Pressure drop, friction, wave drag, you name the type of force, and it's there.
2. Damn interesting if you love engineering but very complicated. No doubt, Gas turbines are the most complex mechanical systems; Yes, even more than Rockets. We do not have to worry about the fatigue and life cycles in rockets which is a great concern in Gas turbines.
3. Things are hard, just fucking complicated. We should be proud of our scientists that we have a working design(Kaveri series) after spending just $500 million. No country can do it. Mark my words.
4. The main issue in Gas turbines is the combustor chamber (My area of work); no material can withstand 1600K without proper cooling. Even with proper cooling, you got life cycle issue, as is the case with Russian engines.

One criticism of GTRE is that they do not hire experienced people. My team has people with experiences from Japan, the US, UK. They can be great assets, but GTRE has no policy for them. They hire freshers who leave the company after just years. A complete waste of efforts.

We need billions of dollars and a revamp in the hiring program. That's all you need to build world-class engineers. We have talent. Just need to use it properly.

 

[omaebakabaka]

I am working on Gas Turbines in a top MNC. Let me share some insights from my experience.
1. Most of the equations we use for ideal conditions remain invalid. Even the air properties like Cp, K, Mu, etc are functions of temperatures. The isentropic process does not exist in real life. You got to face Pressure drop, friction, wave drag, you name the type of force, and it's there.

I am sure you did not mean the way it comes off....they are still valid but the interactions of other parameters in real world need to be factored in. Errors and losses and few other aspects need to be understood and remedied.

 

[omaebakabaka]

@omaebakabaka @Lonewolf please check my calculations, I tried to calculate the thrust of theoretical High bypass turbofan engine using Kaveri's core with core mass flow=67.2Kg/s, OPR= 25, BPR=3, Total Mass flow= 268Kg/s, TeT = 1500K, I got 94KN thrust

If you are willing to wait then I can review it in the math context but I am not necessarily from that area to weigh in beyond that....you seem to be interested in a genuine way, why not give it a shot in ISRO or any other related PSU in fluid dynamics

 

[Vamsi]

If you are willing to wait then I can review it in the math context but I am not necessarily from that area to weigh in beyond that....you seem to be interested in a genuine way, why not give it a shot in ISRO or any other related PSU in fluid dynamics

Yes please