Kaveri Engine

[Vamsi]

My guess is our specialists need opportunities to observe more things directly and indirectly and one to one interactions at that level lead to understandings at technical level. This is how chinese interact in research and I have some first hand experience working with Chinese in my thesis years but sometimes you get more direct revelations in partnership like these....there are still some core technologies and probably a bunch of them that we don't have experience or expertise. We have not built any that are totally indigenous and engines require tons of hours of experience and failures as surprizingly not everything can be derived from theory nor can be explained. Trial and error and painful experiments and careful observations and innovative solutions to stubborn problems are quite common. I don't believe everything that our agencies say regarding capabilities, we simply have too many imported sub components but kinda mastered integrations. It is a good thing we spent so many years on Kaveri as long as they are continuing to learn, there is simply no replacement for hardwork to understand the "know why part"

That is why I say foreign OEM scientists should come here and work with our scientists in this JV. Our scientists should work on each & every component of the engine.It should not be like "I develop Hot section, you develop cold section". Entire development activities should happen in India only. Design, Manufacturing & Testing should happen entirely in India. Our scientists should be part of every review team. We should have access to each & every thing in this programme. There should be no restrictions at all.Only then we can absorb the "know-why"

 

[LondonParisTokyo]

Saurav jha in one of his IAH said both rr and safran are asking around 7-8 bln but the main holdup is still on how much ip they are willing to give

Give us 100% IP and we will guarantee you oil for 10 years haha. Then massively increase crude imports from countries selling it cheap, refine it, and sell it back at discount. Support Russia, support Kaveri, provide oil to Western countries. Most importantly, get huge technology

 

[omaebakabaka]

That is why I say foreign OEM scientists should come here and work with our scientists in this JV. Our scientists should work on each & every component of the engine.It should not be like "I develop Hot section, you develop cold section". Entire development activities should happen in India only. Design, Manufacturing & Testing should happen entirely in India. Our scientists should be part of every review team. We should have access to each & every thing in this programme. There should be no restrictions at all.Only then we can absorb the "know-why"

Very unlikely it will happen that way, rather ours will go the other side on anything that is significant, less significant ones that would travel to India include generally trained specialists and not the core specialists. "Know why" requires time and smart people that have mix of certain qualities to successfully absorb and extend on it and these partnerships are the vehicles for that sort of desired outcome. Its somewhat of a closed circle, lot of things even by them are sourced from partner countries such as scandinevia, french or german and so on. This is why they are somewhat more succesful and can afford as they distribute some work loads vs Russia or India or China that have to pretty much master all levels. Japan is a bit of an exception in this model but they also have it somewhat easy with their bottom up set up and also being part of that closed circle.

For us generally English and French partnerships paid off somewhat in the past

 

[Vamsi]

Very unlikely it will happen that way, rather ours will go the other side on anything that is significant, less significant ones that would travel to India include generally trained specialists and not the core specialists. "Know why" requires time and smart people that have mix of certain qualities to successfully absorb and extend on it and these partnerships are the vehicles for that sort of desired outcome. Its somewhat of a closed circle, lot of things even by them are sourced from partner countries such as scandinevia, french or german and so on. This is why they are somewhat more succesful and can afford as they distribute some work loads vs Russia or India or China that have to pretty much master all levels. Japan is a bit of an exception in this model but they also have it somewhat easy with their bottom up set up and also being part of that closed circle.

For us generally English and French partnerships paid off somewhat in the past

In that case I'm confident that we will be fooled in one way or another....at the end we will screwdriver the foreign engine with Indian name....I am keeping my expectations very low in this JV.

 

[omaebakabaka]

In that case I'm confident that we will be fooled in one way or another....at the end we will screwdriver the foreign engine with Indian name....I am keeping my expectations very low in this JV.

More likely outcome of this sort of partnership is hard to quantify directly. Kaveri is a marathon and not a sprint as its laying that highly sophisticated technology foundation requiring understanding of many disciplines and its application. Even if the outcome is producing drone capable engines, it is successful. These partnerships are useful in a certain sense and manufacturing them is not bad as it creates jobs and some other indirect benefits and is absolutely worth the risk as long as no sabotage is intended to sideline kaveri research in favor of this engine.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

That is why I say foreign OEM scientists should come here and work with our scientists in this JV. Our scientists should work on each & every component of the engine.It should not be like "I develop Hot section, you develop cold section". Entire development activities should happen in India only. Design, Manufacturing & Testing should happen entirely in India. Our scientists should be part of every review team. We should have access to each & every thing in this programme. There should be no restrictions at all.Only then we can absorb the "know-why"

They won't give us that much leverage in any case unless they have made up their mind to make their company collapse, lose a large engine market and create a new competitor to themselves in long term. Even observing for "knowhow" and figuring it out is not easy and "knowhy" is impossible without their tecaher level guidance since even all experiments on complete "knowhow" won't give us complete "knowhy".

So unless they are high on pot, we won't get any "knowwhy". We only have to be clever with them to draw maximum possible of our use.

 

[MonaLazy]

In that case I'm confident that we will be fooled in one way or another....at the end we will screwdriver the foreign engine with Indian name....I am keeping my expectations very low in this JV.

@omaebakabaka @MonaLazy What's our work share in that helo engine JV with french. Is it similar to Shakti engine?? Cold section ours, hot section theirs??

China’s 'French Helicopter' Cleared For Ops; Is Propelled By Safran Engines That Could Power India's AMCA

China’s first advanced seven-ton class medium utility helicopter, the AC352, also known as Z-15, has been cleared for commercial operations by the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC). Warning To China? Taiwan Releases Terrifying Images Of Its ‘Secret Underground Tunnel’ With F-16...

eurasiantimes.com

Too early to tell what the tech share will be (it is still in MoU stage)- but the Chinese-French agreement provides a good model and is probably what we are aiming for also-

In 2005, the Harbin Aircraft Industry Group of the AVIC and Eurocopter Group, now known as Airbus Helicopter, signed a joint development and production agreement worth six billion Euros, as part of which both the companies agreed upon a 50% share of the total investment and workload.

Co-developed by the AVIC and the France-based Airbus Helicopter, the Z-15 first took to the skies in December 2016 in Harbin. The two companies equally contributed in terms of investments and shared the design and production responsibilities with two assembly lines, one in Harbin and the other in Marignane, France.

The contract was signed on December 5, 2005, followed by completing the Preliminary Design Review in 2006 and Critical Design Review in 2007. Harbin Aircraft Industry has independent intellectual property rights.

This gave Chinese access to Ardiden 3C as WZ-16 engine which went into their commercial 7 ton Z-15 helicopter. It can be plonked into PLAs 5.5 ton Z-10 attack helicopter for bettering its high altitude capability.

Update: France, India to co-develop new engine for IMRH

France and India have agreed to co-develop a new engine for the Indian Multi Role Helicopter (IMRH) project.

www.janes.com

Franck Saudo, the CEO of Safran Helicopter Engines, said that the 50-50 joint development of the engine is covered under a memorandum of understanding (MOU) signed on 8 July between Safran Helicopter Engines and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

The MOU will extend the continuing partnership of the two companies through the establishment of a new aero-engine company in India.

According to Safran, this company will be dedicated to the development, production, sales, and support of helicopter engines in India. “One of its main objectives will be to meet the requirements of HAL's and India's Ministry of Defence's (MoD's) future helicopters,” a joint HAL-Safran statement said.

“The development of the engine is embedded in this 50-50 joint venture,” Saudo said.

According to him, the MOU “kicks off” the project. “This sets the strategic alignment [of the project]. From now on, we will work on establishing the joint venture,” he said.

He added that HAL will hold the type certificate for the engine upon completion of the developmental project.

An industry source told Janes that the development of the engine will require at least three years as it is contingent on integration with the IMRH design being developed by HAL.

 

[Vamsi]

phoren engine screw drivered in India with Indian name

 

[jai jaganath]

phoren engine screw drivered in India with Indian name

Can't it be like Shakti engine program

 

[Vamsi]

Can't it be like Shakti engine program

shakti's hot section is imported

 

[jai jaganath]

shakti's hot section is imported

But cold section is ours right
After this agreement we are making htse so we can't sas it not a good model but no other choice

 

[Vamsi]

But cold section is ours right
After this agreement we are making htse so we can't sas it not a good model but no other choice

Hot section is the key.

 

[karn]

Vikas /Viking engine type deal is what we are looking for .
Very ironic that engines for spacecraft are less valuable compared to a jet engine.
(Mostly cause rocket engines are use and throw)

 

[Vamsi]

Vikas /Viking engine type deal is what we are looking for .
Very ironic that engines for spacecraft are less valuable compared to a jet engine.
(Mostly cause rocket engines are use and throw)

there are restrictions in that deal, they will have even more restrictions now.

 

[Vamsi]

I'm very poor in metallurgy, so can anyone explain me why Tungsten super alloys aren't used for turbine blade applications ??

 

[Corvus Splendens]

I'm very poor in metallurgy, so can anyone explain me why Tungsten super alloys aren't used for turbine blade applications ??

High mass = more stress due to high rotational forces.
Tungsten fractures and breaks easily, an engine failure will turn it into a Frag Grenade.

 

[karn]

there are restrictions in that deal, they will have even more restrictions now.

Viking was good enough .. ISRO can make as many as they want .. and enhance and modify it.
It is notable that they gave this engine when they were moving to cryogenic engines

 

[Indx TechStyle]

But cold section is ours right
After this agreement we are making htse so we can't sas it not a good model but no other choice

Well, we didn't need foreign assistance if we needed cold section alone. We need tech for hot section and there is no point if "collaboration" ends up with making cold section and importing hot section again.

That's zero progress.

 

[omaebakabaka]

I'm very poor in metallurgy, so can anyone explain me why Tungsten super alloys aren't used for turbine blade applications ??

Alloys are secret and thats where lies the trick. No one is going to share on a silver platter, we just need to continue making progress. Lot of things are incremental in understanding in engineering when it comes to translating theory to application. With the general growth of manufacturing and MIC comes the added benefits of understanding material science better from a fundamental level targeting a commercial or MIC purpose. There are more than one goal with this partnership, if not any it gives you lot of indirect understanding which will not be available working on your own.

Imagine a simple Indian sword (damascus steel is actually Indian tech) or Japanese katana, how much charcoal you put and heating and cooling process and so on.....same goes with alloys. There are other special ingredients and its a painful experimentation to get the ratio and process right.

 

[Vaibhavseafarer]

There were some rumors about Ganga Engine
Any update?