Kashmir conflict-India should act now?

Son of Govinda

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The Secularism of the west, is merely separation of the Church and the State. And yet we see governors in the US scrambling to prove they are Christian and the British PM declaring that Britain is a Christian country.



Umm... No, there is no Hindu "lobby". And even so, a Hindu lobby would not make India less secular.
The US and England are completely secular states..... the business lobby is far far larger in those countries than its Religious lobby.

And yes the Hindu lobby in India is very powerful, and they still control the parliament. India is definitely secular to some degree but it's not even close to the ideal secularism of Germany or France.
 

Dovah

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The US and England are completely secular states..... the business lobby is far far larger in those countries than its Religious lobby.

And yes the Hindu lobby in India is very powerful, and they still control the parliament. India is definitely secular to some degree but it's not even close to the ideal secularism of Germany or France.
You are making statements not arguments.
 

agentperry

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be india hindu or pakistan islamic state or anyother possibility as per the mandate in un, signed by both india and pakistan after first kashmir war between both nations, kashmir can go either to indai or to pakistan... the independence many are talking about is out of question
 

Mad Indian

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But then that isn't secularism, that's something else, probably tolerance. 'Secularism' itself is a European term
Exactly. By european defn of Secularism. They are secular and we are not. Plain and simple.
 

The Messiah

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Why should we use european definition ??? There definition is flawed. We will use our own definition.

They will start fighting and indulge in genocides once the wealth starts running out. Anyone can be "friendly" in good times but true face is seen in bad times and as far as India is concerned we have already seen the worst that could happen since 1947 and dare i say apart from a few incidents it has smooth sailing as far as secularism is concerned.

Every year "race" oriented attacks are on the rise in the west.
 

Son of Govinda

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Why should we use european definition ??? There definition is flawed. We will use our own definition.

They will start fighting and indulge in genocides once the wealth starts running out. Anyone can be "friendly" in good times but true face is seen in bad times and as far as India is concerned we have already seen the worst that could happen since 1947 and dare i say apart from a few incidents it has smooth sailing as far as secularism is concerned.

Every year "race" oriented attacks are on the rise in the west.
The age of enlightenment definition is the true definition of secularism.

Anyways, this is my last time posting about this but In India would also have "race" attacks if we were being overrun by foreigners. I grew up in Canada and I've never been discriminated against based on faith or race. My GF is white and from Germany, and I still never faced discrimination when I lived with her in München for a year. The average German has a hell of a lot of respect for India, and when people find out I'm Indian they show it.
 

The Messiah

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I dont give a shit about age of enlightedment because i am not european.

They can apply there definition to themselves....dont expect us to follow the same things like lackeys.

It wont happen.
 

Son of Govinda

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I dont give a shit about age of enlightedment because i am not european.

They can apply there definition to themselves....dont expect us to follow the same things like lackeys.

It wont happen.
So should we just abandon everything else we follow like "lackeys" from the age of enlightenment? Democracy, freedom of press, religious equality etc... ? In fact India takes pride in how democratic and western its government is compared to all of its neighbours. Why shouldn't we use great ideas from westerners? Westerners have been using and learning from Indian knowledge for centuries.
 

The Messiah

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All of that was already in practise in India before they got enlightened. We lost our way somewhere down the line. But democracy, freedom of speech, religious equality and even atheism are Indian concepts before westeners got a sniff of it.

I suggest you read up :)
 

Mad Indian

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So should we just abandon everything else we follow like "lackeys" from the age of enlightenment? Democracy, freedom of press, religious equality etc... ? In fact India takes pride in how democratic and western its government is compared to all of its neighbours. Why shouldn't we use great ideas from westerners? Westerners have been using and learning from Indian knowledge for centuries.
You are unfortunately right:(. The boldened part is a gift from the westerners to us. The years of Islamic rule had dented all that in our country before the westerners re-introduced religious equality and freedom for us. We have to get the best from them if it makes us better.
 

Son of Govinda

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All of that was already in practise in India before they got enlightened.

I suggest you read up :)
Wait what? Indians used to follow the Caste system............. that is the most undemocratic, Unwestern thing imaginable...... not only does it strip you of the right to vote or freedom of press, it takes away all of a persons humanity.
 

aerokan

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Wait what? Indians used to follow the Caste system............. that is the most undemocratic, Unwestern thing imaginable...... not only does it strip you of the right to vote or freedom of press, it takes away all of a persons humanity.
The kingdom of kalinga used to pride in it's establishment being democratic. This is before Christ was even born. Do u think caste system is not there now in the west?? It just follows a different name in today's context. Today we call it by different names.. political class, lobbying class, farmers class, businessmen class. Caster system is not the problem. Caste discrimination is. Unfortunately we have followed it in a negative way for some centuries in the recent past. But it's turning around. Even US gave the full rights to vote to all of it's citizens in the near past. India did it right on the day of formation itself. India takes care of minorities better than any western country u ever see. Argue with me on that when the western countries u talk abt elect a non-christian president. Not gonna happen in your lifetime :)
 

panduranghari

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The US and England are completely secular states..... the business lobby is far far larger in those countries than its Religious lobby.

And yes the Hindu lobby in India is very powerful, and they still control the parliament. India is definitely secular to some degree but it's not even close to the ideal secularism of Germany or France.
In France, the current presidential election centres around Islam. Go to Paris and you see the posters denouncing Islam everywhere.

In Germany, Frankfurt is considered a completely non European city. You wont know if you are in Europe or in Cairo. Honestly. Its still a wonderful city.

But your definition of ideal secularism is flawed.
 

panduranghari

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Why should we use european definition ??? There definition is flawed. We will use our own definition.

They will start fighting and indulge in genocides once the wealth starts running out. Anyone can be "friendly" in good times but true face is seen in bad times and as far as India is concerned we have already seen the worst that could happen since 1947 and dare i say apart from a few incidents it has smooth sailing as far as secularism is concerned.

Every year "race" oriented attacks are on the rise in the west.
Orwell himself believed in the clash of civilisations. Huntingdon has written extensively on this too.

Slightly OT perhaps;

The gist is

First: Domination over raw materials whenever a way to achieve that is found.

Second: Making the dollar an alternative to gold as the world's currency. Europe tries to struggle against its hegemony by its currency called the 'Euro', and some states try to return to the gold and silver standard. However, America fights any attempt to return to the gold standard.

Third: Continuing to make the developing countries mere markets for consumption by preventing them from [developing] heavy industry and even many of the light industries.

Fourth: Drowning the developing countries with compound interest loans through the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and World Bank. The danger of these loans is obvious.

Fifth: Attracting the emigrant professionals and intellectuals who do not find any place for themselves in their original countries, and so are forced to emigrate to the West.

Sixth: Formulating policies predominantly imposed by the IMF leading to the absence of food security in these countries, such that they fall under the mercy of aid, grants and loans after they have been selfsufficient.

Seventh: Igniting regional wars to push states to purchase weapons, which quickly transform into mere outdated, insignificant, rusting scrap metal, unless they are used in their regional wars.

Eighth: Working for the absence of security in various countries, such that [their] capital migrates to more secure countries like Europe and America, which they then freeze under various pretexts whenever they wish. If we know that the Arab countries alone have capital in the West amounting to 800 billion dollars at the lowest estimate, we are able to imagine even approximately what has been plundered from the Islamic lands, all of them under-developed countries, without mentioning other developing countries.

Ninth: Dominating economic interests in various countries through what they call globalisation, privatisation and capital investments owned by giant Capitalist corporations.

Tenth: Designating rulers who are their agents together with armies and intelligence services whose function is to protect their interests.


Eleventh: Landing forces in some sensitive global regions and settling therein, to perpetuate the extension of influence, as America did in theGulf, Sinai, Central Asia, Turkey and elsewhere. This is in addition to the fleets that cruise the oceans to secure the plunder of riches.

Twelfth: Working to fragment the world into many countries in the name of independence to perpetuate their weakness and facilitate
dominance over them.

Thirteenth: Spreading their culture and civilisational concepts to perpetuate dominance over defeated countries and to distance them
from thinking about change and liberation from their claws.

Fourteenth: Imposing sanctions upon some countries, like the sanctions America imposed upon Iraq. It issued resolutions through the
Security Council under Number 665 to boycott Iraq and grant the American navies the right to use force to prevent trade with Iraq. Bob
Woodward commented in his book 'Leaders' upon this resolution saying:

"This was the first time in United Nations history spanning forty five years that it granted countries outside its umbrella the right to impose economic sanctions. This was a magnificent diplomatic victory for the American administration."
 

panduranghari

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The age of enlightenment definition is the true definition of secularism.

Anyways, this is my last time posting about this but In India would also have "race" attacks if we were being overrun by foreigners. I grew up in Canada and I've never been discriminated against based on faith or race. My GF is white and from Germany, and I still never faced discrimination when I lived with her in München for a year. The average German has a hell of a lot of respect for India, and when people find out I'm Indian they show it.
Well thats applicable in every country. People in general are more tolerant to Indians than others. But that does not mean they are going to tolerate us in time when their superiority over the world order is in question.
 

panduranghari

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Wait what? Indians used to follow the Caste system............. that is the most undemocratic, Unwestern thing imaginable...... not only does it strip you of the right to vote or freedom of press, it takes away all of a persons humanity.
You clearly do not know the concept of caste system. Its not how it is known today. It was a lot lot different in the past. You are following the western thought process of caste system and unfortunately in India we have not been able to shed it off. We are western lackeys a lot more than we are willing to accept.
 

Ray

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Germans love India (in some respects and not all)

I am not being racist, but they do feel that they are a superior race and very Aryan.

I have studied with Germans and I found that though they never stated so openly, the undercurrent was there.

In Batalik (near Kargil) where it is said there are pure Aryans, German women were apprehended (it being within the 'Inner Line') wanting to be impregnated by 'pure' Aryans!!
 

Son of Govinda

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In France, the current presidential election centres around Islam. Go to Paris and you see the posters denouncing Islam everywhere.

In Germany, Frankfurt is considered a completely non European city. You wont know if you are in Europe or in Cairo. Honestly. Its still a wonderful city.

But your definition of ideal secularism is flawed.
If you actually think the current France Presidential election is based on Islam you're wrong, it's about immigration policies as a whole.

I've lived in Germany for a year, my girlfriend is German, and I speak German, and yes I've been to Frankfurt, it's still thoroughly German.

My definition of ideal secularism is the same definition of the very humanists who coined it, so no your definition of secularism is flawed. Stop trying to hijack this word to represent completely non secular policies.
 

Son of Govinda

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Germans love India (in some respects and not all)

I am not being racist, but they do feel that they are a superior race and very Aryan.

I have studied with Germans and I found that though they never stated so openly, the undercurrent was there.

In Batalik (near Kargil) where it is said there are pure Aryans, German women were apprehended (it being within the 'Inner Line') wanting to be impregnated by 'pure' Aryans!!
And Hindus don't think they're superior? I grew up in the west and had to witness high-caste Indian immigrants to Canada making fools of themselves trying to act superior to Canadians and other races here. I still witness this bullshit everyday and it makes me sick.

Arrogance is not exclusively German my friend.
 

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