Joint development of Ship Propulsion system with Russia

[Kyubi]

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In regards to Mig21's it is very much true the one's being purchased directly from russia had a longer shell life, and the ones manufactured by our PSU's had maintenance issues, the metallurgy was indeed not of the highest standards.

 

[Kyubi]

How is brahmos a completed deal ? Tot has not been given to India.

ya i wanted to add even that it is still not yet ours interms of technology, i believe the propulsion system is still Russians and due to control regimes we are unable to get the TOT, also the fact that it is based on the Yakhont missile is a matter of separate discussion. But my major point was brahmos being a success as a joint-collaborative effort. and FGFA isn't and i doubt how viable it will turn out with another 5th gen AMCA being touted to have foreign collaborators.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

ya i wanted to add even that it is still not yet ours interms of technology, i believe the propulsion system is still Russians and due to control regimes we are unable to get the TOT, also the fact that it is based on the Yakhont missile is a matter of separate discussion. But my major point was brahmos being a success as a joint-collaborative effort. and FGFA isn't and i doubt how viable it will turn out with another 5th gen AMCA being touted to have foreign collaborators.

Brahmos range does not violate mctr. No reason for no TOT. PAKFA will be like the gorshokov disaster.

 

[Kyubi]

Brahmos range does not violate mctr. No reason for no TOT. PAKFA will be like the gorshokov disaster.

Yup i guess you are right if i remember correctly Sivanthu Pillai did say that cruise missile do not actually come under the ambit of MCTR, and brahmos range can be increased. Also MCTR is more for BM's or WMD's not much for policing propulsion of Cruise missiles. But still Russian's being a member of MCTR is abiding by its Moral responsibility ( albeit a Psuedo one ) to limit the range of the missile.

Also to point out MCTR is no more a deterrent , Storm Shadow aka Black Shaaheen which was provided to the Saudi's clearly violated the convoluted theory of 300km/500kg limitations of the MCTR.. So in a way India could have done something in this regard, but Russians might have thwarted that attempt.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Mctr does apply to cruise missiles. But even Russia's S 400 violate MCTR also UAV's like US predator drone. Just two examples of treaties being irrelevant when it comes to making money.

 

[Kyubi]

is it not why India was hell bent on being a signatory member of the MCTR.
are there any control regimes for the ToT of Marine Propulsion !!???

 

[charlie]

If you read my post carefully I said soviet metallurgy was advance but that was 25 years back. Russian metallurgy is not as advanced as Soviet metallurgy was.

I never made any comparison between US and Russian metallurgy instead I have quoted about German metallurgy.
Soviets had advantages with some alloys and American had advantage in some.

I neither studied Metallurgy nor do I know anything about German Metallurgy, just heard about comparison between American and Russian one's

Indian army person are not really best source for customer service review. Russian have screwed us on many matters. ToT for T-90 gun barrel, ammunition, armor plating, INS Vikramaditya, FGFA, etc., etc. etc.

Well Indian Army is the customer, I think their review matters the most.

Well I agree with you on Vikramaditya, that they badly screwed up on estimation of work needed to be done, but other deals were more of a screw up from our side.

One thing DRDO and PSU's always get wrong is they assume that companies will share critical technology with them. I think if you let Indian private sector involve then that assumption goes away.

It's not just Russia companies, none of the companies want to share their technology. It's their bread and butter.

(Israel)IAI dose not want to share it's active seeker technology
(Germany) MTU & Renk dose not want to share it's engine technology
(USA)MOOG was blocked by US(forget about sharing technology) for supplying us actuators because of MTCR but Russia still supplied us engine for Nirbhay CM.

You hear more about Russian now because most of the equipment in our arsenal was Russian. just wait few more years and you will start hearing about US too, but again now private sector is slowly pitching in so you won't hear much whining from DRDO about TOT because private companies has realistic approach.

Russia would not share technology with us if their condition would have been better, but we missed a big opportunity when Russia was really cash strapped and we could have gained a lot, but thanks to DRDO short sightedness in 90's we were not able to take advantage of it. I think India's condition during that time was not good either so can't really blame them.

Again there was no compassion being made American Defense firm with Russian PSU. I just highlighted Russians are being greedy now days!!! No comparison to American was made.

Well I don't know about European defence firms but I would assume they are no different either.

 

[charlie]

Brahmos range does not violate mctr. No reason for no TOT. PAKFA will be like the gorshokov disaster.

I saw some IIT guy comments in pak forum that during 90's Russian were proposing to sell liquid ramjet technology at around 200cr, but DRDO didn't make any move and now there is a talk going on to buy the same technology for 2000 crores.

I assume they are ready to sell but at a right amount.

 

[pmaitra]

During the 1990s, Russia was willing to sell a lot of things, but that does not mean whey would have actually sold it. Yeltsin was a US puppet and he easily came under US pressure and blocked the sale of cryogenic technology to India.

 

[charlie]

is it not why India was hell bent on being a signatory member of the MCTR.
are there any control regimes for the ToT of Marine Propulsion !!???

MOOG was blocked by US for supplying us actuators for Rustom II because of MTCR, forget about ToT even the products are not sold to us.

TAI was able to come up with electromechanical servo actuator for Anka UAV within short span of time, I assume that's because of MTCR!

 

[Kyubi]

MOOG was blocked by US for supplying us actuators for Rustom II because of MTCR, forget about ToT even the products are not sold to us.

TAI was able to come up with electromechanical servo actuator for Anka UAV within short span of time, I assume that's because of MTCR!

But AFAIK United States (US) State Department withdrew restrictions on the export of some seven types of MOOG actuators that feature in ADE's flagship Rustom-II MALE UAV . Although a recent development. but nevertheless a significant one.

But MCTR is only to prevent proliferation of missile's & Unmanned aerial vehicle tech. But in the present thread which talks about Join-Development of Ship Propulsion. are there any control regimes that would restrict the sharing of tech know-how with your partner !!??

Just to be safer Kaveri's Marine derivative should be taken up on a major scale, and i believe there can immense use of this turbine derivative.
Ideally speaking for indigenous capability, Huge orders of Arjun Tank would have propelled DRDO to take up Engine R&D and we would have had a credible working model of it by now, citing the necessity of a homegrown Engine, there could have been marine derivatives developed from it and could have been a worthy replacement to MTU's engine currently being used in ICGS Aadesh Class Fast Patrol Vessel.

 

[Zebra]

How is brahmos a completed deal ? Tot has not been given to India.

And I am pretty sure, @ pmaitra and his gang won't cry about BrahMos ToT.

 

[pmaitra]

And I am pretty sure, @ pmaitra and his gang won't cry about BrahMos ToT.

Thanks for tagging me. We have two choices. Either work with the Russians or work on our own. There is no other choice.

 

[Zebra]

Thanks for tagging me. We have two choices. Either work with the Russians or work on our own. There is no other choice.

We are already working with Russia on BrahMos.

But still Indians are not getting ToT....!

You wants to say that if India work with Russia then forget about ToT...!

 

[pmaitra]

We are already working with Russia on BrahMos.

But still Indians are not getting ToT....!

You wants to say that if India work with Russia then forget about ToT...!

I said what I wanted to say. You are free to interpret it whatever way you want.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

I saw some IIT guy comments in pak forum that during 90's Russian were proposing to sell liquid ramjet technology at around 200cr, but DRDO didn't make any move and now there is a talk going on to buy the same technology for 2000 crores.

I assume they are ready to sell but at a right amount.

Russians are getting 3 million for each brahmos and one order I remember was for 1000 missiles so this exceeds what Russians were asking and still no tot.

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Indian_Army_Orders_Additional_BrahMos_Cruise_Missiles_999.html

 

[LETHALFORCE]

And I am pretty sure, @ pmaitra and his gang won't cry about BrahMos ToT.

Unfortunately India never pursued an indigenous production policy in regard to national policy. Russians are not the only option Israel and french can also assist in many areas.

 

[charlie]

Russians are getting 3 million for each brahmos and one order I remember was for 1000 missiles so this exceeds what Russians were asking and still no tot.

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Indian_Army_Orders_Additional_BrahMos_Cruise_Missiles_999.html

Seriously is that what you come up with, I mean if you buy something you expect them to give you TOT because the value of TOT is less then order quanity

You are paying for the product.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Seriously is that what you come up with, I mean if you buy something you expect them to give you TOT because the value of TOT is less then order quanity

You are paying for the product.

Charlie the Brahmos was always marketed as a joint development. Project.We have contributed the guidance system. For the money and time we have put into Brahmos 3-5 billion? If this missile is the pride of three branches We should have full access to the whole missile.
I think pillai maybe a bigger problem than the Russians in the tot?

 

[Dark Sorrow]

The discussion was about metallurgy, specifically Tumansky R-25 engine, which was built in the USSR and also in India. I was pointing out the difference in metallurgy between the two turbines.

You need to look at the time frame. Soviet was quite advanced for its time but not Russian.

It was a US interplanetary lander project in which various universities and companies competed. The Lithium was mined in Russia. The ore was refined in Russia. The alloy was made in Russia. The final product, the fuel tank, was fabricated in Russia.

So??? Use the sales pitch if their is an Indian US interplanetary lander project.
Alcoa Inc. is one of the companies that supplies Al based alloys to NASA. Alcoa Inc.has mines and reprocessing units in Russia but that doesn't make it a Russian metallurgy.

Sverdlovsk not only had the mines, but also the Titanium refining plant in Sverdlovsk, long before Boeing came in.

Because it makes scene to have reprocessing plants near mines. Just having reprocessing industry doesn't make our metallurgy superior.

Boeing facility is not only limited to the mines, but also R&D, where they hire Russian metallurgists, educated in Russian universities.

No they don't. On the contrary Boeing brings most metallurgy from western nations and uses here. Most of its metallurgy used by Boeing is western developed.
They only reason Boeing facility is located their because of the mines.
Final machining and processing of the forgings will be completed by Boeing's Portland, Ore., fabrication facility and other machining subcontractors.

RPG-7 and Stinger had very limited success against the Hind. Fuel economy is not the issue here. Metallurgy is.

Total BS. History showed both weapons resulted in heavy air-loss and you are claiming they were limited success against the Hind.
Stinger with a kill ratio of about 70% and with responsibility for most of the over 350 Soviet or Afghan government aircraft and helicopters downed in the last two years of the war.
Fuel economy is the issue here. Better metallurgy results in reduced weight having a positive effect on fuel economy.

Yup, you start talking about metallurgy and then start talking about "greed" and "brinkmanship." It is clear where the stupidity is coming from. Love it when you cannot go after the message and have to go after the messenger.

Pro-Russian propaganda BS. "Greed" and "brinkmanship" were refereed as separate points as pitfalls dealing with Russians. Its you who are putting things out of context to suit your needs.

Are you talking about "martime-engine development" or "brinkmanship?"

"Greed" and "brinkmanship" were refereed as separate points as pitfalls dealing with Russians.
Didn't Russians threatened to keep Vikramaditya for themselves if we didn't pay extra.

Most of the things you have written in this conversation is unmitigated drivel. I am countering your assertion that Russia has to import advanced alloys from Europe. If that is the case. why can't the Europeans build better off-road vehicles? Metallurgy is needed for chassis, undercarriage, suspension.

Maybe because they don't have a market for it??? Their are compines like Tatra and Mercedes that manufacture off road vehicles.You don't need specialized materials for every thing. You can compensate inferior metallurgy by adding a more metal but that makes things heavy.

Yeah, I remember it. Russia offered to refund the initial payment when the first cost escalation happened. India wanted the ship, knowing well that if India didn't buy it, PRC would.

Isn't the end result that India paid extra and Russian threated us that they would sell it off???