JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 Xiaolong

[DivineHeretic]

Ah,JFT rcs are below Rafale and at the level of EFT..probably among the least in 4th generation fighters.

And LCA is a dud design.Its RCS even in clean configuration must be around 2m2


well its true.if you have any contact with pdf mod oscar you can also ask him.The project of Pakistani RAM exclusively was started for Babur cruise missile...beside this there is one private firm named CARE which has a JV with turkish firm

PEC has a capability of complete Composites of any quality.and the facility is Boeing and airbuss certified and exports parts for commercial jets to boeing and airbuss.


I dont know why are you acting like a indian and lying?.you rich and indian?buahahahahaha indian and rich..ghareeb log




As i said in the past LCA composites are myth.please dont believe in the words of HAL and DRDO.
Meanwhile let me show you how a aircraft with 95% of its skin having composites looks like and how of JFT

sometime i think LCA is a projects of kids.(not kidding)

it is not lighter than JFT even though JFT is longer,wider and taller than LCA except the wing area.
indian defence budget include everything including the nuclear program budget..over here in pakistan the official defence budget doesnt include many after retirements rights of military officers and nuclear program budget into official defence budget..mushy excluded them off to show the budget smaller.

i repeat again mark my words LCA will never be inducted and would rather serve as a technology demonstrator for the AMCA to be inducted in 2036.

JFT is barely making it to the 4th gen status. Its does not even have an all axis FBW. With a full metal body and absolutely no attempt to reduce RCS by design (apart from DSI), how does it reduce its RCS to below the 4,5 gen Eurocanards which have extensive composites and were designed with minimum RCS in mind. If it were so superior in reality, the Chinese would not have shelved it in favour of J-10B. But obviously, fanboys make more sense than common sense, don't it?

And unless the IAF is lying, the RCS of LCA is less than the MIG-21, i.e Less than 1.2m2. If it is a dud design (obviously you have no idea of delta congiguration, and I doubt you even get the meaning of dud), the Euro canards, the Mirage are all junk. Only the great JF-17, with a $20 million price tag,a pathetic avionics set is the best 4th AC on Earth. Remember your attempts to get French avionics, only to be refused.Fact is ouside African countries and ones without any real cash, you will not find a single customer for that AC.

Its PAC and not PEC, and nowhere it says they can manufacture composite parts. Supplying for boeing and airbus does not imply them capable of supplying composite parts. The parts supplied are metal ones and unless you bring me evidence, there is no point arguing about it.

And about India's Defence budget, look it up. It does not include the paramilitary budget which is included under MHA budget, and neither does it include the straregic weapons budget.
Infact, the Arihant, each with a cost of around $2 billion do not find mention in any budget, and neither does the nukes whose budget comes from DAE. Add tjese together, the actual defense budget is over $14 billion more than the stated one.

 

[Defenceindia2010]

Ah,JFT rcs are below Rafale and at the level of EFT..probably among the least in 4th generation fighters.

And LCA is a dud design.Its RCS even in clean configuration must be around 2m2


well its true.if you have any contact with pdf mod oscar you can also ask him.The project of Pakistani RAM exclusively was started for Babur cruise missile...beside this there is one private firm named CARE which has a JV with turkish firm

PEC has a capability of complete Composites of any quality.and the facility is Boeing and airbuss certified and exports parts for commercial jets to boeing and airbuss.


I dont know why are you acting like a indian and lying?.you rich and indian?buahahahahaha indian and rich..ghareeb log




As i said in the past LCA composites are myth.please dont believe in the words of HAL and DRDO.
Meanwhile let me show you how a aircraft with 95% of its skin having composites looks like and how of JFT

sometime i think LCA is a projects of kids.(not kidding)

it is not lighter than JFT even though JFT is longer,wider and taller than LCA except the wing area.
indian defence budget include everything including the nuclear program budget..over here in pakistan the official defence budget doesnt include many after retirements rights of military officers and nuclear program budget into official defence budget..mushy excluded them off to show the budget smaller.

i repeat again mark my words LCA will never be inducted and would rather serve as a technology demonstrator for the AMCA to be inducted in 2036.

I understand your desperation to label others work as childish even though your nation ''Mentallistan's'' track record in innovation is far and between, name a single item which you export or manufacture that can be worth the made in pak tag. The JF-17 is a Chinese creation with bits and pieces attached to it and exported to massage bruised and battered egos's of a nation who's claim to fame is terrorism, the fact of the matter is that LCA has created in industrial and institutional capabilities what pak's can only imagine. You want to talk about aeronautic, tactical capabilities of these two aircraft join in but if you want to make futile and downright ''idiotic'',(not rare in your case) statements then don't waste time on this thread. And as a matter of fact no matter what weaponry the pak military fields they always land up at the loosing end and JF-17 will make no difference.

 

[farhan_9909]

You don't have a single credible source for the LCA tejas RCS or the RCS of all metal JF-17.Yet you continue posting that JF-17 has lower RCS than Tejas. How?

No aircraft is all metal.and dont believe in both DRDO and HAL.they are pathological liars..dont you remember they are giving off deadline since the past 1 decade and are not upto time in a single project..meanwhile with the funds provided and 3 decades development time..i am 100% sure even afghanistna would have now made LCA operational

so dont believe in DRDO and HAL words.Composites in lca is a myth and a bluff by drdo to fool off the indian or false pride.

this is the reason

*JFT weighs less or similar to LCA despite only using 8% of composites vis a vis 40% in lca
*Material and finishing quality of LCA reminds me of late 60's brand new manufacture Mig 21 even after using 95% of composites on its skin.vis a vis JFT which finishing quality is even better than Gripen and comparable to EFT

 

[farhan_9909]

@farhan_9909

New LCA cockpit.

This is for the trainer version.

In a few years, the cockpit may change again for Mk2.

Oooops.sorry didnt knew that the cockpit is upgraded.
looks good.similar 3 mfds like on JFT with full colour display.

I knew that they will replace the older.which infact was a copy of Bangladesh latest f-7bg(cockpit) or similar

 

[The Last Stand]

I knew that they will replace the older.which infact was a copy of Bangladesh latest f-7bg(cockpit) or similar

We have access to Israeli and French avionics. Why do we have to "copy" Chinese avionics which have a bad reputation.

How the **** did we buy Bangladesh's F-7 in the first place?

Can you even think logically sir?

Tejas has a wing area of 38.4 sq.m while JF-17 has a wing area of 24.4 sq.m. Keep dreaming.

LCA has wing area of 14 sq.m more and therefore must weigh more. Empty weight of JF-17 is 6.586 tonnes. Empty weight of LCA is 6 tonnes. Max takeoff weight and payload as well as fuel capacity are more for LCA. LCA uses composites since it weighs lesser even when wing area is more.

Where do you get your data?

If HAL and DRDO are pathological liars, what do I call you?

 

[farhan_9909]

JFT is barely making it to the 4th gen status. Its does not even have an all axis FBW. With a full metal body and absolutely no attempt to reduce RCS by design (apart from DSI), how does it reduce its RCS to below the 4,5 gen Eurocanards which have extensive composites and were designed with minimum RCS in mind. If it were so superior in reality, the Chinese would not have shelved it in favour of J-10B. But obviously, fanboys make more sense than common sense, don't it?

*It does has FBW in all axis.only the first 3 prototypes didnt had.the design was changed onwards pt-04.so does the fbw was upgraded.but even if you ask me i wont provide any source for complete fbw for you.because i had enough discussion about this with the other indian member..
*DSI,Smaller design,RAM coating,better finish off body,

*JFT range is very smaller and for china j-10B and jft cost wont make any difference.JFT for a bigger country like china is not suitable.

And unless the IAF is lying, the RCS of LCA is less than the MIG-21, i.e Less than 1.2m2. If it is a dud design (obviously you have no idea of delta congiguration, and I doubt you even get the meaning of dud), the Euro canards, the Mirage are all junk. Only the great JF-17, with a $20 million price tag,a pathetic avionics set is the best 4th AC on Earth. Remember your attempts to get French avionics, only to be refused.Fact is ouside African countries and ones without any real cash, you will not find a single customer for that AC.

JFT price for Block 1 at the moment as of singapore airshow 2012 is 30millions per unit..not 20millions.
To PAF each JFT with support cost and weapons cost 40millions

French refused but we had italian offer on table..we didnt chose because PAF official said we are surprised by the capabilities of JFT avionics

Its PAC and not PEC, and nowhere it says they can manufacture composite parts. Supplying for boeing and airbus does not imply them capable of supplying composite parts. The parts supplied are metal ones and unless you bring me evidence, there is no point arguing about it.

PEC is different.search about PEC.in google.
composites are made here in unis.

And about India's Defence budget, look it up. It does not include the paramilitary budget which is included under MHA budget, and neither does it include the straregic weapons budget.
Infact, the Arihant, each with a cost of around $2 billion do not find mention in any budget, and neither does the nukes whose budget comes from DAE. Add tjese together, the actual defense budget is over $14 billion more than the stated one.

well from indians members i had heard that indian official defence budget include nuclear program budget

 

[farhan_9909]

We have access to Israeli and French avionics. Why do we have to "copy" Chinese avionics which have a bad reputation.

How the **** did we buy Bangladesh's F-7 in the first place?

Can you even think logically sir?

well the cockpit of older lca indeed was similar to the cockpit of Bangladesh latest f-7bg

image of f-7bg cockpit is posted above

 

[The Last Stand]

well the cockpit of older lca indeed was similar to the cockpit of Bangladesh latest f-7bg

image of f-7bg cockpit is posted above

I edited my post and added a few more points. Reply to them.

 

[sayareakd]

those are made by Chinese made CNC machines.

Here is SU 30 MKI we made from raw material in India by HAL in Russian CNC machines. Its quality is much much better then what Chinese machine can deliver.

Also understand that LCA pic you posted is not of production version, for production version we will use CNC machines, once used data is feed wont be much of problem, when it comes to quality. We have Indian made CNC machines, plus option to get foreign CNC.

Above comparison clearly shows world of difference in front line product of PAF and IAF, both produced in their respective countries.

 

[p2prada]

This is a modernized PC-21 cockpit..

I'm afraid you might miss these discussion..

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/18521-ada-tejas-lca-iii-148.html

Thanks for the correction.

BTW, we can't easily judge the advancement of avionics by the screen size...the display system or the human machine interface is just an importand part ,but not all . the architecture design which we can't SEE in the pix should be the key...obviously the F22's avionics is not at the same level as the 4Gen(your standard) light fighters. at least I dare not compare FC1's avionics with the F22's even whose design was finalized before the madien flight of FC1...

Yes, the quality of the cockpit is also determined by what information those plush screens can show.

 

[sayareakd]

well the cockpit of older lca indeed was similar to the cockpit of Bangladesh latest f-7bg

image of f-7bg cockpit is posted above

two android phone looks same, but you know both are not same inside.............

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

1 of first 40 crashed and a PAK's elite pilot got killed of monkey parachute, right after a PAK official bragged "You can buy 3 JF-17s for price of one F-16". Addionally making casualty per crash ratio 1 to 1 so far.

So, it's a choice.
Cheap governments that think they have lots of pilots to expense but budget is more precious, then its a heck of good deal still.
As long as they think the cost of 4 x JF-17 plus 4 pilots loss comes surplus to counter one F-16.

I wonder is what made this PAKI'S dare to commit a cost comparison to F-16.

 

[farhan_9909]

those are made by Chinese made CNC machines.

Here is SU 30 MKI we made from raw material in India by HAL in Russian CNC machines. Its quality is much much better then what Chinese machine can deliver.

Also understand that LCA pic you posted is not of production version, for production version we will use CNC machines, once used data is feed wont be much of problem, when it comes to quality. We have Indian made CNC machines, plus option to get foreign CNC.

Above comparison clearly shows world of difference in front line product of PAF and IAF, both produced in their respective countries.

Lol JFT is being manufactured by swedish CNC's pak imported for JFT production in the past.

Well the most recent video of PAC has even shown that the complete fuselage is now being manufactured in PAC kamra.

the above pic of LCA is off the LSP or limited series production
while the one i posted is from the SBP.small batch production

 

[farhan_9909]

1 of first 40 crashed and a PAK's elite pilot got killed of monkey parachute, right after a PAK official bragged "You can buy 3 JF-17s for price of one F-16". Addionally making casualty per crash ratio 1 to 1 so far.

So, it's a choice.
Cheap governments that think they have lots of pilots to expense but budget is more precious, then its a heck of good deal still.
As long as they think the cost of 4 x JF-17 plus 4 pilots loss comes surplus to counter one F-16.

I wonder is what made this PAKI'S dare to commit a cost comparison to F-16.

1 crash and its been 6 years JFT is in service.more than 6 now.

many western fighters had crashed in there prototype stage..other had made it to museum before getting inducted because of the compltetion of its service life(LCA TEJAS)

 

[The Last Stand]

1 crash and its been 6 years JFT is in service.more than 6 now.

many western fighters had crashed in there prototype stage..other had made it to museum before getting inducted because of the compltetion of its service life(LCA TEJAS)

You didn't reply to my earlier post:

Tejas has a wing area of 38.4 sq.m while JF-17 has a wing area of 24.4 sq.m. Keep dreaming.

LCA has wing area of 14 sq.m more and therefore must weigh more. Empty weight of JF-17 is 6.586 tonnes. Empty weight of LCA is 6 tonnes. Max takeoff weight and payload as well as fuel capacity are more for LCA. LCA uses composites since it weighs lesser even when wing area is more.

Where do you get your data?

If HAL and DRDO are pathological liars, what do I call you?

 

[farhan_9909]

You didn't reply to my earlier post:

had already made a big post about how composites in LCA is either

Myth
low quality
or none are used

in the past.

will quote that post tonight.slightly busy now

 

[farhan_9909]

You didn't reply to my earlier post:

had already made a big post about how composites in LCA is either

Myth
low quality
or none are used

in the past.

will quote that post tonight.slightly busy now

 

[sayareakd]

Lol JFT is being manufactured by swedish CNC's pak imported for JFT production in the past.

Well the most recent video of PAC has even shown that the complete fuselage is now being manufactured in PAC kamra.

the above pic of LCA is off the LSP or limited series production
while the one i posted is from the SBP.small batch production

I already shown you compare to SU 30 MKI your front line fighter is very low on quality.

 

[The Last Stand]

had already made a big post about how composites in LCA is either

Myth
low quality
or none are used

in the past.

will quote that post tonight.slightly busy now

With no evidence.

That's what I'm saying. LCA has a larger wing area than JF-17 by a wide margin of 14 square metres and yet weighs lesser when empty. How do you explain this unless LCA uses composites and JF-17 doesn't? Or maybe it's because LCA uses more composites than JF-17 as claimed by DRDO and HAL who are "pathological liars".

LCA is superior to JF-17 simply because it has much higher payload, range and thrust to weight ratio. It's as simple as that.

@p2prada sir, help me out by reading the last 3 pages since farhaan bhai claims JF-17 uses superior composites to LCA and that LCA using composites is a myth without any evidence. He also states that JF-17 RCS is lower. Any comments on this?

 

[p2prada]

@p2prada sir, help me out by reading the last 3 pages since farhaan bhai claims JF-17 uses superior composites to LCA and that LCA using composites is a myth without any evidence. He also states that JF-17 RCS is lower. Any comments on this?

I don't know if JF-17 uses composites, Block 1 doesn't, but Block 2 does.

LCA has composites for sure. 100%. Among the highest in the world. Even Boeing acknowledges that in their graph.

LCA is said to have an RCS that is 3 times smaller than Mirage-2000 according to official literature. Mk2 would obviously do better. There are no equivalent claims for JF-17, but RCS is definitely bigger than LCA due to lack of composites. In terms of design, there is no way of knowing whether JF-17s RCS is equal to that of a F-16 B52 or a Mig-29, that's anywhere between 1.2m2 and 5m2, clean RCS.

I read somewhere that JF-17s RCS is as good as a F-16s, but the Block 15/20s that the PAF operates has RCS that is more in the 3m2 to 5m2 range. RCS was reduced from Block 30 onwards to 1m2. So that claim isn't a real factor in determining JF-17s RCS.

If we accept official literature to be true, LCA Mk1's RCS is more in the EF/Rafale/SH region, primarily due to size difference and composites than design.