JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 Xiaolong

[p2prada]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

Regarding J 10 Pakis and Chinese members BOTH on the enemy forum are
SPECULATING what is the big delay

There are three theories going around

1 PAF has NO MONEY China is NOT giving freebies at least this time ie
the price China wants for its J 10 is not affordable to the pakis

2 . AL 31 engines are NOT for sale J 10 is powered by AL 31
which has been barred by the Russians for exports AND WS 10 is Not ready

3 Pakis want a better quality J 10 B and not the current J 10 A
This means J 10 A is also below the Paki expectations

Yeah. This makes sense. The PAF already has two ongoing programs, JF-17 and upgrades of F-16s. Dipping their hands in a different cookie jar wouldn't be a good idea.

They cannot match IAF, but they can wait for the J-10 to mature. J-10A is like our old Mig-29 or even the Bison, only A2A capabilities and very limited A2G.

 

[Yusuf]

Using jet trainer to commit mass murders? AK-47 will do just fine. Or any other weapon for that matter. Why dont you lecture USA and your dear friend Russia on that? Oh you must have missed the fact that Russia is still selling weapons to Syria. So stop been a hypocrite.

No I am talking about the countries who are potential Chinese junk buyers.

 

[Akim]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

Much like Geely and Cherry is to the auto-mobile market.

Regarding aircraft agree, the Chinese airplanes are not dragged as far as of contemporary aviation. And regarding... Russia does wonderful fighter, Ukraine - the best in the world transport aviation. But both countries collect their the cars so, that sits down terrible in them. For me Geely EMGRAND EC - 7 RV. Yes, he certainly does not drag as far as on a level assembling with the European cars, but already got around South Korean. And due to rich acquisition and less expensive price,for us he is simply snatched away.

 

[ice berg]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

No I am talking about the countries who are potential Chinese junk buyers.

Good that you admit you are a hypocrite.

 

[Akim]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

A single engine AL-31F powered aircraft is bad news. It is not as reliable as a P&W or GE engine. Even a twin engine flanker has less chance for worry. IAF and VVS would have had more Flanker and Fulcrum crashes had there been only one engine.

I do not know of cases where the AL-31F denied flight.

 

[p2prada]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

I do not know of cases where the AL-31F denied flight.

I know of plenty within IAF itself.

It depends on how many times you fly I guess. I can say for sure IAF flies at least twice as much as VVS. There were 3 emergency landings for MKI this year itself, all on account of engine failure. The aircraft landed on the second engine all 3 times.

 

[pankaj nema]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

LoL. I had pointed that out too. The Block 1 is same as LCA Mk1. It failed to reach performance goals.

In terms of electronics it is inferior to the Mk1 as well. In terms of T/W ratio it is lower than LCA Mk1. It won't function as well as it should in desert heat. Weapons choices, we have more, way better choices. But I am not sure how far Chinese weaponry has progressed.

Block 1 has no growth prospects and Block 2 isn't gonna be any different. Heck, an aircraft strapped PAF only managed 50 Block 1s which is a big deal. Block 2 seems to have 50 orders too and from what we know there will be a small radar upgrade and some avionics upgrade. If there is no engine change or even a high thrust variant of the RD-93, then it will be as useless as the Block 1. They can only hope they can upgrade the Block 1 to carry a new high thrust engine, but it will be way too difficult to the point where their only selling point, "Affordability", could go for a toss.



I wouldn't be so sure. The J-10A has nothing out of the ordinary that the F-16A/B does not already have. I can say the supersonic performance of the J-10 would be greater than F-16, but nothing to indicate it will beat the F-16C that easily. A single engine AL-31F powered aircraft is bad news. It is not as reliable as a P&W or GE engine. Even a twin engine flanker has less chance for worry. IAF and VVS would have had more Flanker and Fulcrum crashes had there been only one engine. You can say the J-10B is a dark horse, let's see how the new engine fares.

As a single engine aircraft, if the J-10 cannot match the reliability of the F-16 then it is another white elephant. We know for sure that the Gripen has exceeded expectations compared to F-16. At least LCA uses a GE engine and we know that HAL and ADA are happy with their choice of engines.

LCA mk 1 will definitely meet its performance goals

Our LCA mk1 is ONLY delayed because ADA has made many improvements AFTER LSP 5

Between LSP 5 and LSP 7 one year was wasted but now things are back on track

Since All A to G missions have again been performed it means that there have been several improvements
and changes which have necessitated these A to G tests again

With the BVR missile to be fired soon LCA will be ready to be handed over to IAF

 

[sayareakd]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

I know of plenty within IAF itself.

It depends on how many times you fly I guess. I can say for sure IAF flies at least twice as much as VVS. There were 3 emergency landings for MKI this year itself, all on account of engine failure. The aircraft landed on the second engine all 3 times.

let them fly it in numbers then they will know what happens...................

 

[pankaj nema]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

ADA has maintained that they are very careful so as avoid any LCA crash
otherwise it will get such huge negative press that the whole programme will suffer

It is very good that we have gone for GE engines for LCA

A single Russian engine means asking for trouble

For Mig 21 we dont have any other choice but if LCA was to crash with a single AL 31 engine
then it would be the end of the LCA programme

 

[Yusuf]

Good that you admit you are a hypocrite.

Off course. International relations is all about hypocrisy.

 

[Akim]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

IThere were 3 emergency landings for MKI this year itself, all on account of engine failure. The aircraft landed on the second engine all 3 times.

Ratherall it is not correct exploitation. In Russia swear at the tank engine of 5TDF, and in Ukraine - he works without problems. Neither Ukrainian nor Russian Su- 27 and MiG- 29 does not accomplish crash-landing from breakages of engine. That is why young pilots and execute on these airplanes of "The tailslide" is an aerobatic maneuver.

 

[p2prada]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

LCA mk 1 will definitely meet its performance goals

Mk1s performance parameters have been degraded. The goals to achieve are far easier now. 8G limit, max speed reduced to Mach 1.6 from Mach 1.8, payload reduced from 4000Kg to 3500Kg, AoA seems to be reduced, T/W ratio requirements reduced and many more which we don't know in open source.

So it will meet the new performance parameters placed. It is the Mk2 which will meet the original specs. The JF-17 block 1 and maybe even Block 2 are in the same boat. Most of this is due to engine limitations for both aircraft. That's the reason why Mk2 is getting a new engine.

I wonder what options do the PAF have for JF-17. They were talking about an uprated RD-93, but India seems to be placing hurdles against it because we have the RD-33 design. However let's not forget that while India needs 100-200 engines the JF-17 project may place orders for atleast 1000 engines. But even the uprated RD-33 at 88KN is too less for JF-17. Maybe they will go for a much higher rated version of the RD-33 at 94KN or 98KN, all that will come at a cost though. No way will it make the program affordable as we know there is a new WS-13 engine being developed in parallel. Two engine developments for one supposedly "affordable" platform. Yeah right! Even India isn't that stupid. We are merely buying an existing engine(F-414) before we start with a new engine program. Heck even the Americans canceled the project for a second engine for the F-35. Good luck PAF!

For Mig 21 we dont have any other choice but if LCA was to crash with a single AL 31 engine
then it would be the end of the LCA programme

That's BS. They are just giving crash avoidance as an excuse for their extremely slow development speed. Last year they gave monsoon as an excuse while HAL building the prototypes was behind schedule.

Even if LCA crashes the program will continue. It is not upto the IAF to cancel the project.

Airavat was canceled because, other than being obsolete, it was a very bad design, rightfully an aerodynamic disaster. LCA is not so bad that they will cancel the program due to one crash.

 

[p2prada]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

Ratherall it is not correct exploitation. In Russia swear at the tank engine of 5TDF, and in Ukraine - he works without problems. Neither Ukrainian nor Russian Su- 27 and MiG- 29 does not accomplish crash-landing from breakages of engine. That is why young pilots and execute on these airplanes of "The tailslide" is an aerobatic maneuver.

You are talking about capability, I am talking about reliability.

Tank engines are much more reliable than jet engines. Heck, the physics is different.

Even American F-15s have landed citing emergency due to failure of an engine and so have F-18s. VVS would have too, just that you don't know about it. We know about it because we have auditing programs and IAF has to go through civilian procedures when discussing problems with Parliament or MoD.

F-35 has been criticized by Navy airmen because of this problem. They can't have an engine failure over water.

It is very well known that twin engines help curb crashes. One reason why IAF has plans for twin engines for all platforms except the LCA.

 

[Akim]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

You are talking about capability, I am talking about reliability.

Tank engines are much more reliable than jet engines. Heck, the physics is different.

Even American F-15s have landed citing emergency due to failure of an engine and so have F-18s. VVS would have too, just that you don't know about it. We know about it because we have auditing programs and IAF has to go through civilian procedures when discussing problems with Parliament or MoD.

F-35 has been criticized by Navy airmen because of this problem. They can't have an engine failure over water.

It is very well known that twin engines help curb crashes. One reason why IAF has plans for twin engines for all platforms except the LCA.

The choice of single-engine scheme for the Chinese is logical. AL- 31 is twice smaller than the lifespan what Pratt & Whitney F100 at identical thrust and to reliability . Therefore, training pilots on the F-16 costs 3 times cheaper what on J - 10(MiG - 29) and 6 times cheaper what on J - 11 (Su - 27). And western engines will not sell Beijing.

 

[p2prada]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

The choice of single-engine scheme for the Chinese is logical. AL- 31 is twice smaller than the lifespan what Pratt & Whitney F100 at identical thrust and to reliability .

Not twice, even lesser. I think you are comparing figures for the 117S. AL-31F maxes out at 1600 hours while 117S does 4000 hours.

IAF's AL-31FP does better, I think at 3000 hours. Waaaaaay better than what China is supplied. Even their new WS-10 only partially exceeds AL-31F and does not yet match up to the AL-31FP.

Hopefully the new engine for MKI is at least at the level of 117S, if we are not getting the 117S.

117S

Newer American F-100s do around 10000 hours.

 

[p2prada]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

RD-33 Series 3 engine life is 4000 hours.

F-414 is 2000 hours but will be upgraded to 6000 hours for Tejas.

EJ-200 gives 6000 hours.

M88-2 is at 6000 hours.

WS-10 supposedly gives 2000 hours.

 

[sukhoi30mki]

JF-17 is an aircraft which will replace the old Mirages in PAF.

It is not meant to fight the high end fighters.

I said this years ago on a Pak forum. But at that time, they were busy talking about how JF will bring down MKIs by the dozens. I wonder if it is the same even today.

new mirage has better tech than jf 17

 

[drkrn]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

You have a habit of stating the obvious. If you can afford audi, you wont buy a Lada.

Unfortunately not every one can afford an Audi. Get my point?

That is why we have market segmentation.

As regarding K-8 . Low tech or not, there are still a dozen countries operation them. I recall certain country who still need to import basic trainer...:cool2:

i once asked my uncle "whats the cheap and best car in the market"

he replied "how can a cheap thing be the best, how can a best thing be cheap"

by the way thanks for accepting that jf-17 gives what its payed for..
dont understand why many people brag about it for things which it dont have

 

[drkrn]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

RD-33 Series 3 engine life is 4000 hours.

F-414 is 2000 hours but will be upgraded to 6000 hours for Tejas.

EJ-200 gives 6000 hours.

M88-2 is at 6000 hours.

WS-10 supposedly gives 2000 hours.

sorry to ask this question but am eager to know how the life of an engine can be tripled??

even if possible how much is going to cost us

 

[ice berg]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

i once asked my uncle "whats the cheap and best car in the market"

he replied "how can a cheap thing be the best, how can a best thing be cheap"

by the way thanks for accepting that jf-17 gives what its payed for..
dont understand why many people brag about it for things which it dont have

If I am your uncle I would reply like this:
There is no such thing as the best, only one that suits your need.
After all everything is relative, including price and performance.

Only internet fanboys brag about things they dont have. Then again, when are such fanboys representative for their military establishments?