JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 Xiaolong

[Tshering22]

Yes ,you are right, they will realise what type of junk They have bought and soon they will regret it. They will learn it the hard way. Chinese Quality products are always like that. Their reliability is doubtful to be honest.
View attachment 120920

Pakistan did not have any other option, guys. US was not giving the Block 52s; India pressured France and Russia to not sell them any jets, leaving only Eurofighters, that were costlier than Mirage 2Ks and anything ever that Russia produced.

China also did not want to hand over the J-10 to them way back in 2008 when Musharraf was ruling that country. The excuse was that PAF's requirements are different from China's, i.e., absolute bullshit. JF-17/FC-1 was a viable but rejected design that the Chinese had not wanted so they handed it over to Pakistan as a "joint" project.

Come to think of it; why does China not supply J-10As to third countries now that the have the C variant?
There are plenty of countries who can buy them; Nigeria, Serbia, Argentina, Uganda, Kenya, Iran, Venezuela, Thailand, Libya, etc. But they don't sell them.

Always wanted to ask a Chinese but not one has given me a straight answer.

 

[Trololo]

Lets not jump in glee bashing the JF17. The JF 17 is a very good plane for the price. And Chinese technology will only keep improving. If they achieve an engine better than the RD93 (maybe not at F404 level), and more reliable and fuel efficient than the RD 93, that's a big improvement in my book. Similarly if they can integrate an AESA (even if its worse than Uttam, but better than their current slotted array system), that's a win. Same with integrating some form of MAWS. And an SDR. And new bombs and missiles, sensors, etc. Improve maintenance and construction from one block to the next, etc. + PAF has 10+ years of institutional knowledge on the JF 17 because it has been operating it. So while we shouldn't wet our pants, we shouldn't bash it for an ego trip either. Lets keep improving what we have to outclass the adversary.

 

[Abdus Salem killed]

Lets not jump in glee bashing the JF17. The JF 17 is a very good plane for the price. And Chinese technology will only keep improving. If they achieve an engine better than the RD93 (maybe not at F404 level), and more reliable and fuel efficient than the RD 93, that's a big improvement in my book. Similarly if they can integrate an AESA (even if its worse than Uttam, but better than their current slotted array system), that's a win. Same with integrating some form of MAWS. And an SDR. And new bombs and missiles, sensors, etc. Improve maintenance and construction from one block to the next, etc. + PAF has 10+ years of institutional knowledge on the JF 17 because it has been operating it. So while we shouldn't wet our pants, we shouldn't bash it for an ego trip either. Lets keep improving what we have to outclass the adversary.

PAF has 10+ years of institutional knowledge on the JF 17 because it has been operating it.
You don't get institutional knowledge on a thing bcs you operate it I Opera a phone for 10 years and I only know the basics on how it works

 

[Tshering22]

Lets not jump in glee bashing the JF17. The JF 17 is a very good plane for the price. And Chinese technology will only keep improving. If they achieve an engine better than the RD93 (maybe not at F404 level), and more reliable and fuel efficient than the RD 93, that's a big improvement in my book. Similarly if they can integrate an AESA (even if its worse than Uttam, but better than their current slotted array system), that's a win. Same with integrating some form of MAWS. And an SDR. And new bombs and missiles, sensors, etc. Improve maintenance and construction from one block to the next, etc. + PAF has 10+ years of institutional knowledge on the JF 17 because it has been operating it. So while we shouldn't wet our pants, we shouldn't bash it for an ego trip either. Lets keep improving what we have to outclass the adversary.

No one is bashing the Chinese capability. The fact that they are capable of enhancing the Flankers using different innovations of their own proves that they are a credible force and prefer practicality over reinventing the wheel. Right now if a war breaks out, Chinese have ready factories and the money to churn out 1000s of their own jets, something not many other countries can boast of on this planet.

The thing about JF-17s is that Pakistanis have been beating their chests as if it is the panacea solution to all their problems. Yet, a simple analysis of the aircraft's structure, its engine, its publicly-available information on electronics, etc. tells that it is a jet intentionally made inferior to keep costs down to boost numbers.

The jet has its uses in countries that don't have the same level of threat perceptions that we do; maybe FC-1s might be amazing use for someone like Bolivia, Ecuador, etc. who are fighting drug cartels and insurgent groups in their forests and border areas. In fact, it would pack quite a punch with the new generation of Chinese AGMs and AAMs.

However, the reason why people here are mocking it is because PAF was gloating so bad about it, that when they got the end product, they seem completely conned.

Why do you think that Pakistanis chose to send F-16s after the Balakot strike and not the Thunders?

Despite being a full generation ahead, one of their F-16 also got shot by the MiG-21.

On a related note, if I were a Paki general who was faced with this situation, I'd allow China to fully access Block 52's tech (which is sanctioned anyway) in exchange for J-10s.

 

[thefewthefearless]

Lets not jump in glee bashing the JF17. The JF 17 is a very good plane for the price. And Chinese technology will only keep improving. If they achieve an engine better than the RD93 (maybe not at F404 level), and more reliable and fuel efficient than the RD 93, that's a big improvement in my book. Similarly if they can integrate an AESA (even if its worse than Uttam, but better than their current slotted array system), that's a win. Same with integrating some form of MAWS. And an SDR. And new bombs and missiles, sensors, etc. Improve maintenance and construction from one block to the next, etc. + PAF has 10+ years of institutional knowledge on the JF 17 because it has been operating it. So while we shouldn't wet our pants, we shouldn't bash it for an ego trip either. Lets keep improving what we have to outclass the adversary.

jf-17 is unreliable, even if an aircraft is expensive but if it's good, everyone would.
does pakistan have this in mind that they would sell these jf-17 to poor countries?

jf-17 is meant to be paf's 2nd line of defence. rafale is miles ahead of it. if you are talking about the cost. yes jf-17 provides more features for the price. typical wumao mentality. provide things for cheap price boasting it's features and see how long they last.
at the same time we are developing tejas equal to jf-17 block iii. looking at their specs online. tejas is still little behind it.

if ada amca doesn't starts with a good pace. i don't think we will have any problems importing su57. russians are looking pretty happy exporting them to india.

 

[Super Flanker]

Pakistan did not have any other option, guys. US was not giving the Block 52s; India pressured France and Russia to not sell them any jets, leaving only Eurofighters, that were costlier than Mirage 2Ks and anything ever that Russia produced.

China also did not want to hand over the J-10 to them way back in 2008 when Musharraf was ruling that country. The excuse was that PAF's requirements are different from China's, i.e., absolute bullshit. JF-17/FC-1 was a viable but rejected design that the Chinese had not wanted so they handed it over to Pakistan as a "joint" project.

Come to think of it; why does China not supply J-10As to third countries now that the have the C variant?
There are plenty of countries who can buy them; Nigeria, Serbia, Argentina, Uganda, Kenya, Iran, Venezuela, Thailand, Libya, etc. But they don't sell them.

Always wanted to ask a Chinese but not one has given me a straight answer.

Yes

 

[Trololo]

PAF has 10+ years of institutional knowledge on the JF 17 because it has been operating it.
You don't get institutional knowledge on a thing bcs you operate it I Opera a phone for 10 years and I only know the basics on how it works

Umm... a phone is very different from a fighter jet manned by trained people (pilots, ground staff, air traffic staff, PAC engineers, etc). Everyone in that chain learns the details of that aircraft. Which makes passing the knowledge down easier, as well as creating and validating weapons and tactics for the plane. That is sustained over time and keeps improving, and thus becomes institutional knowledge.

 

[Trololo]

No one is bashing the Chinese capability. The fact that they are capable of enhancing the Flankers using different innovations of their own proves that they are a credible force and prefer practicality over reinventing the wheel. Right now if a war breaks out, Chinese have ready factories and the money to churn out 1000s of their own jets, something not many other countries can boast of on this planet.

The thing about JF-17s is that Pakistanis have been beating their chests as if it is the panacea solution to all their problems. Yet, a simple analysis of the aircraft's structure, its engine, its publicly-available information on electronics, etc. tells that it is a jet intentionally made inferior to keep costs down to boost numbers.

The jet has its uses in countries that don't have the same level of threat perceptions that we do; maybe FC-1s might be amazing use for someone like Bolivia, Ecuador, etc. who are fighting drug cartels and insurgent groups in their forests and border areas. In fact, it would pack quite a punch with the new generation of Chinese AGMs and AAMs.

However, the reason why people here are mocking it is because PAF was gloating so bad about it, that when they got the end product, they seem completely conned.

Why do you think that Pakistanis chose to send F-16s after the Balakot strike and not the Thunders?

Despite being a full generation ahead, one of their F-16 also got shot by the MiG-21.

On a related note, if I were a Paki general who was faced with this situation, I'd allow China to fully access Block 52's tech (which is sanctioned anyway) in exchange for J-10s.

I agree that their chest thumping is stupid. Having said that if they can get large numbers of jf 17 in many blocks it serves their purpose. We lack on that numbers front. of course our baseline aircraft (LCA Mk1, MK1A, and Mk2) will be much better than theirs. LCA Mk2 will outclass the F16 Blk 52s easily.

 

[Trololo]

jf-17 is unreliable, even if an aircraft is expensive but if it's good, everyone would.
does pakistan have this in mind that they would sell these jf-17 to poor countries?

jf-17 is meant to be paf's 2nd line of defence. rafale is miles ahead of it. if you are talking about the cost. yes jf-17 provides more features for the price. typical wumao mentality. provide things for cheap price boasting it's features and see how long they last.
at the same time we are developing tejas equal to jf-17 block iii. looking at their specs online. tejas is still little behind it.

if ada amca doesn't starts with a good pace. i don't think we will have any problems importing su57. russians are looking pretty happy exporting them to india.

1> you make up the unreliability with large numbers and low flight hours per plane.
2> jf 17 is PAF's CAP plane as well. in many scenes 1st line of defence, but not 1st line of attack.
3> it provides good features for the price, and is much better than PAF's F7s. if I'm an F7 pilot of PAF I'll enjoy a biriyani for getting to fly the jf 17.
4> tejas Mk1A will trump the jf 17.
5> yes su 57 is a possibility if amca gets critically delayed.

 

[IndianHawk]

Pakistan did not have any other option, guys. US was not giving the Block 52s; India pressured France and Russia to not sell them any jets, leaving only Eurofighters, that were costlier than Mirage 2Ks and anything ever that Russia produced.

China also did not want to hand over the J-10 to them way back in 2008 when Musharraf was ruling that country. The excuse was that PAF's requirements are different from China's, i.e., absolute bullshit. JF-17/FC-1 was a viable but rejected design that the Chinese had not wanted so they handed it over to Pakistan as a "joint" project.

Come to think of it; why does China not supply J-10As to third countries now that the have the C variant?
There are plenty of countries who can buy them; Nigeria, Serbia, Argentina, Uganda, Kenya, Iran, Venezuela, Thailand, Libya, etc. But they don't sell them.

Always wanted to ask a Chinese but not one has given me a straight answer.

Because j10 is mainstay of chinese airforce and it's a hanger queen. The single al31 requires tremendous maintenance and lots of j10 crashed .

If chinese exported it everyone will be aware of these issues showing weakness of chinese air force. Hence it's not exported but jf17 is.

 

[Aditya Ballal]

I couldn’t resist sharing this here.

 

[Tshering22]

Because j10 is mainstay of chinese airforce and it's a hanger queen. The single al31 requires tremendous maintenance and lots of j10 crashed .

If the Chinese exported it, everyone will be aware of these issues showing weakness of chinese air force. Hence it's not exported but jf17 is.

All their secrecy indicates this, but it is difficult to prove since nothing comes out of China.

But tell me this; even we use the Saturn AL-31 engines in our Su-30 MKIs but they seem to be pretty good for us. Some time ago, I read an interview from the former ACM (Fali Homi Major or PV Naik I guess?) who said that MKI pilots clock about 300+ hours a year.

That indicates a good servicing-availability ratio. Then how come the PLAAF is suffering?

 

[Brood Father]

Because j10 is mainstay of chinese airforce and it's a hanger queen. The single al31 requires tremendous maintenance and lots of j10 crashed .

If chinese exported it everyone will be aware of these issues showing weakness of chinese air force. Hence it's not exported but jf17 is.

I heard one crashed couple of weeks back but thats all I heard. Either they are very good in hiding crashes or they are good with maintenance given that they are a rich country so they should have a good flying hours

 

[Tshering22]

I heard one crashed couple of weeks back but thats all I heard. Either they are very good in hiding crashes or they are good with maintenance given that they are a rich country so they should have a good flying hours

Let's over-estimate to be better prepared. But privately, it is safe to assume that no crashes are reported. Their "social harmony" policy ensures no negative news comes out in the open.

 

[thefewthefearless]

1> you make up the unreliability with large numbers and low flight hours per plane.
2> jf 17 is PAF's CAP plane as well. in many scenes 1st line of defence, but not 1st line of attack.
3> it provides good features for the price, and is much better than PAF's F7s. if I'm an F7 pilot of PAF I'll enjoy a biriyani for getting to fly the jf 17.
4> tejas Mk1A will trump the jf 17.
5> yes su 57 is a possibility if amca gets critically delayed.

indian needs to maintain 3:1 number of aircrafts against paf.
if india can afford the cost per flight. i'm no one to say.
jf-17 is pac's "jugaad" for quickly replenishing paf requirements.
we learnt/ still learning this the hard way. jugaad doesn't mean "good".

also we need to see if jf-17 is the "hauua" of paf like the soviets did with mig-23. it's not a combat tested aircraft. air shows events show nothing about the combat qualities of aircraft.
all we can do is work faster on tejas mk1a/mk2 development

 

[IndianHawk]

All their secrecy indicates this, but it is difficult to prove since nothing comes out of China.

But tell me this; even we use the Saturn AL-31 engines in our Su-30 MKIs but they seem to be pretty good for us. Some time ago, I read an interview from the former ACM (Fali Homi Major or PV Naik I guess?) who said that MKI pilots clock about 300+ hours a year.

That indicates a good servicing-availability ratio. Then how come the PLAAF is suffering?

Because su30mki is dual engine jets. So the chances of crashes are minimised. Yet we all read horrors stories about engine troubles with mki which are sorted recently with massive investment.

J10 is single engine. Any trouble means direct crash.

 

[IndianHawk]

I heard one crashed couple of weeks back but thats all I heard. Either they are very good in hiding crashes or they are good with maintenance given that they are a rich country so they should have a good flying hours

The keep hiding crashes but reports keep coming out regularly. They don't send j10 to foreign excercise often either.

They might solve some issues by putting more money for maintenance / spares but still situation is depressing for them. That's why they keep building su30 copies / keep buying su35.

 

[Concard]

The keep hiding crashes but reports keep coming out regularly. They don't send j10 to foreign exercise often either.

They might solve some issues by putting more money for maintenance / spares but still situation is depressing for them. That's why they keep building su30 copies / keep buying su35.

I can't recall Chinese sending any of their fighter jets to air shows abroad. Correct me if I am wrong. While we keep hearing J20 as some kind of apex fighter which can take on F22 and F35 there is still little to no information about J20. It is hard to know which one is their frontline fighter. Is it J10? J16? We all know the front line fighters of most major air forces. IAF -> SU 30MKI. PAF -> F-16. USAF -> F-22 & F35, F15. UK -> F35 & Eurofighter typhoon.

Chinese defense forums trumpet even the cheap knock offs as Chinese invention. The only major information I got out of Chinese Air force and their pilot training is last year when it was revealed how they faired against Thai Air force. Their Pilot training still seems to be about Dog fights. They don't seem to have situational awareness during beyond visual range combat. And their jets are equipped for WVR not BVR. All Western militaries are equipping their jets for BVR. It is like they have declared WVR is obsolete. One who sees first shoots first and they decide the battle. One of the criticism from former US air force personnel was F-35 is a fat whale and is not suitable for WVR. Given the amount of Tech on F-35 today it is clear for everyone what is F-35 made for. It is not push over in WVR. But in BVR it is a deadly fighter aircraft.

 

[IndianHawk]

I can't recall Chinese sending any of their fighter jets to air shows abroad. Correct me if I am wrong. While we keep hearing J20 as some kind of apex fighter which can take on F22 and F35 there is still little to no information about J20. It is hard to know which one is their frontline fighter. Is it J10? J16? We all know the front line fighters of most major air forces. IAF -> SU 30MKI. PAF -> F-16. USAF -> F-22 & F35, F15. UK -> F35 & Eurofighter typhoon.

Chinese defense forums trumpet even the cheap knock offs as Chinese invention. The only major information I got out of Chinese Air force and their pilot training is last year when it was revealed how they faired against Thai Air force. Their Pilot training still seems to be about Dog fights. They don't seem to have situational awareness during beyond visual range combat. And their jets are equipped for WVR not BVR. All Western militaries are equipping their jets for BVR. It is like they have declared WVR is obsolete. One who sees first shoots first and they decide the battle. One of the criticism from former US air force personnel was F-35 is a fat whale and is not suitable for WVR. Given the amount of Tech on F-35 today it is clear for everyone what is F-35 made for. It is not push over in WVR. But in BVR it is a deadly fighter aircraft.

J20 is still work in progress . It's underpowered right now and it's avionics is decade behind western powers.

It's also not designed to fight close battles either but to act as a low rcs sniper from long distances.

Most of the chinese airforce is still obsolete with MiG-21 copies and earlier versions of j10 and su27 copies. So naturally their view of battle is evolving slower than compared to western world.

Lines between bvr and wvr are blurring with missiles like mica and stealth tech will once again force aircrafts to come closer by avoiding detection at distance.

And their in avionics like aesa radar / jammers/ self protection suits / spectra etc become very very important and this is also weakest spot of chinese.

Even we are steps ahead thanks to western tech infusion but we lack in scale.

 

[XR SAM]

I couldn’t resist sharing this here.