JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 Xiaolong

[Lonewolf]

For now, the JF-17 is the only public option (along with the Mig-35) to be considered by the MoD, i know its not the ideal choice, but considering the tight budget, its probably one of the only options that can't be boycotted by the british.


Seems a bit cheap, considering its relatively close to a proper "multi-role" aircraft


I hope so too

The deal is only in tratatives between CATIC and the MoD (at least for the information given), its probable that if there is an official purchase it will come after 2023/24 (when the next gov takes place)


The deal included 4 missiles per aircraft (the usual PL-5+SD-10 combo) spares and service might be payed separately as the whole service of the aircraft is going to be done in argentina.


If the purchase goes on we will see during testing and when argentine personnel will have opportunity to "get close" with the JF-17 itself. As for going to war with it...absolutely no, considering the state of the country, a war is far from what we need.


Argentina had a program for an attack aircraft similar to the Brazilian AMX, but due to costs it was never made, affording a project for a military aircraft its not cheap, the only options that remain for argentina are the purchase of 12 new or used aircraft, this could be from Mirage 2000, JF-17, Kfir or others.

We could have trued for export ,but our next gen engine us a co deveolpment with Britain and some more item are British , so no scope right now but when engine is made we may try to export tedbf , will be perfect for your country , twin engine , multirole , but it's long in future

 

[Tactical Doge]

Seems a bit cheap, considering its relatively close to a proper "multi-role" aircraft

The chini has problems with WS series engines though,
Russian engines are used for the most part by them AL-31/41
They have made a TVC version of the engine and displayed it for some.commie parade, but according to "experts" the reliability cannot be determined from a 10 minute flight, but it does some slick maneuvers,

If the quoted price is right, and comes with a Roosie engine, J10 is far better than the JF17

 

[Tactical Doge]

The chini has problems with WS series engines though,
Russian engines are used for the most part by them AL-31/41
They have made a TVC version of the engine and displayed it for some.commie parade, but according to "experts" the reliability cannot be determined from a 10 minute flight, but it does some slick maneuvers,

If the quoted price is right, and comes with a Roosie engine, J10 is far better than the JF17

The said air show

 

[Roland55]

We could have trued for export ,but our next gen engine us a co deveolpment with Britain and some more item are British , so no scope right now but when engine is made we may try to export tedbf , will be perfect for your country , twin engine , multirole , but it's long in future

Personally i think Mk.1A would be the better option, as it has a lot more to offer than the JF-17, sadly India its not on the "spot" for the MoD or the current government, although HAL could place an offer to press the Chinese/Pakistanis .

The chini has problems with WS series engines though,
Russian engines are used for the most part by them AL-31/41
They have made a TVC version of the engine and displayed it for some.commie parade, but according to "experts" the reliability cannot be determined from a 10 minute flight, but it does some slick maneuvers,

If the quoted price is right, and comes with a Roosie engine, J10 is far better than the JF17

it is better, but i imagine the overall cost of the J-10 (spares, armament, maintenance) might also be pretty high.

 

[Tactical Doge]

Personally i think Mk.1A would be the better option, as it has a lot more to offer than the JF-17, sadly India its on the "spot" for the MoD or the current government, although HAL could place an offer to press the Chinese/Pakistanis .


it is better, but i imagine the overall cost of the J-10 (spares, armament, maintenance) might also be pretty high.

Mk1a is a sweet aircraft with extremely modular weapons integration and CLAWs

Honestly though at present, the number of units produced per year sucks and not even sufficient to meet local demands,
Plus it uses a lot of Brit components and will continue to use for atleast a good decade +



And we know nothing about the J10 maintenance or the serviceability rates, some argue J10 has a shit serviceability rate which keeps most aircraft grounded at times, hence the large number of aircraft in the PLAAF inventory

 

[Roland55]

Mk1a is a sweet aircraft with extremely modular weapons integration and CLAWs

Honestly though at present, the number of units produced per year sucks and not even sufficient to meet local demands,
Plus it uses a lot of Brit components and will continue to use for atleast a good decade +



And we know nothing about the J10 maintenance or the serviceability rates, some argue J10 has a shit serviceability rate which keeps most aircraft grounded at times, hence the large number of aircraft in the PLAAF inventory

Couldn't the british components be replaced with Indian Made ones ?, that would be sweet.

 

[Lonewolf]

Couldn't the british components be replaced with Indian Made ones ?, that would be sweet.

It can but still engine will the last as we are going for jv with RR for engine for our next gen fighter

 

[Tactical Doge]

Couldn't the british components be replaced with Indian Made ones ?, that would be sweet.

Ahhh my wet dreams,
But in all seriousness though, even the radome is British Aerospace manufactured one, I don't know about the new ones perhaps @Lonewolf knows

We Don't manufacture lot of things, the ejection seat for example and for the Radar, Uttam should be ready anytime the first half of this decade

 

[Roland55]

It can but still engine will the last as we are going for jv with RR for engine for our next gen fighter

Im talking about Mk.1A and Mk.2 (404 and 414) as both would be more like the low cost alternatives.

 

[Lonewolf]

Im talking about Mk.1A and Mk.2 (404 and 414) as both would be more like the low cost alternatives.

Possible but thing is we are going to develop in next decade and deal with Argentina will mught develop some problem but hope things don't turn out so , if india Argentina gets the deal right ,you will be in best situation as the upcoming tedbf and amca would reduce logistics menace .

Also it will pave way for order in south America .

Well personally i feel this Falklands situation is really sad , both Nation should solve it .

@Hariharan_kalarikkal ,most of components which are British will be indigenous by mk2 except european weapons if integrated and martin seat , if drdo embarks to develop ejection seat then it would be good ,not too hard a tech but quite challenging in testing as shock should not be too much , angle of ejection should be safe , lot of hassles

 

[airtel]

Personally i think Mk.1A would be the better option, as it has a lot more to offer than the JF-17, sadly India its not on the "spot" for the MoD or the current government, although HAL could place an offer to press the Chinese/Pakistanis .


it is better, but i imagine the overall cost of the J-10 (spares, armament, maintenance) might also be pretty high.

1) HAL is using lots of American and British technologies in Tejas so export of Tejas to Argentina is not possible according to me.

2 ) overall cost of the J-10 (spares, armament, maintenance) would be less than Junk fighter -17 blunder because large number of J10 are produced for Chinese airforce and because of their quantity their cost would be less than Jf17


Best option for Argentina would be French or Russian aircrafts according to me.

And if they want cheaper aircrafts then Chinese J10
.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

For now, the JF-17 is the only public option (along with the Mig-35) to be considered by the MoD, i know its not the ideal choice, but considering the tight budget, its probably one of the only options that can't be boycotted by the british.


Seems a bit cheap, considering its relatively close to a proper "multi-role" aircraft


I hope so too

The deal is only in tratatives between CATIC and the MoD (at least for the information given), its probable that if there is an official purchase it will come after 2023/24 (when the next gov takes place)


The deal included 4 missiles per aircraft (the usual PL-5+SD-10 combo) spares and service might be payed separately as the whole service of the aircraft is going to be done in argentina.


If the purchase goes on we will see during testing and when argentine personnel will have opportunity to "get close" with the JF-17 itself. As for going to war with it...absolutely no, considering the state of the country, a war is far from what we need.


Argentina had a program for an attack aircraft similar to the Brazilian AMX, but due to costs it was never made, affording a project for a military aircraft its not cheap, the only options that remain for argentina are the purchase of 12 new or used aircraft, this could be from Mirage 2000, JF-17, Kfir or others.

Totally agree, and i will be honest, i doubt that Mexico and Argentina buy fighter aircraft at least in the next 5 years.

why?

In the case of Mexico we have a president that has as a priority the poor, food production and oil as priorities.

Argentina is the same, because if you really wanted you could buy easily Russian MiG-29s which are really reliable.

I said we should have a common aircraft program because while you have built jet aircraft in the past you aerospace lack funds and some technologies, we have aerospace industry but it is mostly foreign owned.

However we have gotten great experience, and Argentina offered to Mexico the Pampa as a joint venture, however Pampa already is obsolete even as a trainer and has very low producion rate.

The best would be a joint program between Argentina and Mexico in which a minimun of core technologies are kept in our countries at a lesser price for both of us.

However i doubt that will happen soon.

But JF-17 is crap because China is unreliable, the JF-17 lack range so as an aircraft will be more of a burden for Argentina and remember the Z-11 helicopter deal between argentina and China where are the helos?

The Pampero to my knowledge never succeded.

A joint program with Mexico or Brazil has the advantages you keep the license and property rights, some core technologies are kept and the jet engines avionics can be from several countries for example Russia, India, Israel, China etc etc....I mean JF-17 is Chinese with Russian engine, but is obsolete and you will have F-35s and later perhaps even Tempest in the Falklands/Malvinas.

War is not an option for Argentina, but England is not rich, they are decaying power with limited budget and keep an aircraft carrier near the Falklands will be spend too much money, basically they can not win the money war.


England will lose the Falklands/Malvinas if they invest more money and get no profits and soon Brazil will have subs in the area complicating more the situation for England

 

[Roland55]

Totally agree, and i will be honest, i doubt that Mexico and Argentina buy fighter aircraft at least in the next 5 years.

why?

In the case of Mexico we have a president that has as a priority the poor, food production and oil as priorities.

Argentina is the same, because if you really wanted you could buy easily Russian MiG-29s which are really reliable.

I said we should have a common aircraft program because while you have built jet aircraft in the past you aerospace lack funds and some technologies, we have aerospace industry but it is mostly foreign owned.

However we have gotten great experience, and Argentina offered to Mexico the Pampa as a joint venture, however Pampa already is obsolete even as a trainer and has very low producion rate.

The best would be a joint program between Argentina and Mexico in which a minimun of core technologies are kept in our countries at a lesser price for both of us.

However i doubt that will happen soon.

But JF-17 is crap because China is unreliable, the JF-17 lack range so as an aircraft will be more of a burden for Argentina and remember the Z-11 helicopter deal between argentina and China where are the helos?
View attachment 91723
The Pampero to my knowledge never succeded.

A joint program with Mexico or Brazil has the advantages you keep the license and property rights, some core technologies are kept and the jet engines avionics can be from several countries for example Russia, India, Israel, China etc etc....I mean JF-17 is Chinese with Russian engine, but is obsolete and you will have F-35s and later perhaps even Tempest in the Falklands/Malvinas.

War is not an option for Argentina, but England is not rich, they are decaying power with limited budget and keep an aircraft carrier near the Falklands will be spend too much money, basically they can not win the money war.


England will lose the Falklands/Malvinas if they invest more money and get no profits and soon Brazil will have subs in the area complicating more the situation for England

Im going to do my best to give you the best explanation i can give about how complicated the situation is make to look and how simple it would be to fix:

The main issue regarding the aircraft to be chosen goes for a couple of "points", this being Availability, capacities and costs. Argentina has a requirement that comes since quite a couple of years, only considering single engine medium/low cost solutions, this can be always seen by the most common choices Argentina had (Mirage, Kfir, FA-50, JF-17), the main focus here is not on gearing for a war against the UK, but to recover the lost capacities of high speed interception and get a proper Air Defense wing.

Of course the choice of aircraft often seems divided in 2 main sides, Western and Eastern, the Uk has a lot of pressure in the western companies, thing that we saw in Saab, KAI and even in a less known case with Aero Vodochoy. The choices for aircraft started becoming more and more scarce, although the more traditional options like France still offer aircraft (M2000), while the eastern options (Russia/China) offer aircraft with absolutely no chance of the sale being banned (until CAATSA is applied on the country). Sadly the politics weigh a lot in this topics.

The solution for this? a stop-gap (much like the Kfir or the M2000) that would buy enough time for the MoD or the Air Force to negotiate a proper replacement that would be used for at least a good 30 years. Or in another take, an LCA, much like the Tejas, JF-17 or FA-50, to have a modern incorporation at a relatively low cost and getting modern weapons.

Whats going to happen is uncertain, but what is certain is that the Air Force A-4ARs are going to retire in 5/6 years...its good to know they're working on getting a replacement rn.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

Im going to do my best to give you the best explanation i can give about how complicated the situation is make to look and how simple it would be to fix:

The main issue regarding the aircraft to be chosen goes for a couple of "points", this being Availability, capacities and costs. Argentina has a requirement that comes since quite a couple of years, only considering single engine medium/low cost solutions, this can be always seen by the most common choices Argentina had (Mirage, Kfir, FA-50, JF-17), the main focus here is not on gearing for a war against the UK, but to recover the lost capacities of high speed interception and get a proper Air Defense wing.

Of course the choice of aircraft often seems divided in 2 main sides, Western and Eastern, the Uk has a lot of pressure in the western companies, thing that we saw in Saab, KAI and even in a less known case with Aero Vodochoy. The choices for aircraft started becoming more and more scarce, although the more traditional options like France still offer aircraft (M2000), while the eastern options (Russia/China) offer aircraft with absolutely no chance of the sale being banned (until CAATSA is applied on the country). Sadly the politics weigh a lot in this topics.

The solution for this? a stop-gap (much like the Kfir or the M2000) that would buy enough time for the MoD or the Air Force to negotiate a proper replacement that would be used for at least a good 30 years. Or in another take, an LCA, much like the Tejas, JF-17 or FA-50, to have a modern incorporation at a relatively low cost and getting modern weapons.

Whats going to happen is uncertain, but what is certain is that the Air Force A-4ARs are going to retire in 5/6 years...its good to know they're working on getting a replacement rn.

I totally agree and understand you, the thing I am saying you your options are limited, however they are so limited they will no give you real advantage neither military nor economical.

I will explain

If you assemble the JF-17 in Argentina, you pay for them so the number you buy means the number you assemble.

We assemble and build many fuselages in Mexico but we do not buy them, each Bombardier, cessna, Beechcraft, etc etc we made we do not buy them basically we get no money except salaries but we get the same experience and since we assemble and build a lot our technicians get a lot of experience.

The Chinese will send you many workers so you pay them, in our case the aerospace companies want to hire mexicans to reduce salaries.


So at the end you will not get core technologies, China will force you to pay chinese workers, and very likely you will only made the fuselage if you are lucky, very likely they will send you the aircraft for you just to assemble, not buid it.

What did you get? a shot legged fighter that you get almost none tech transfer and you pay.


If you build something with Brazil or Mexico, you get more core technologies, and if you buy aircraft with long range let us say 10 Su-34, you get aircraft that can fire long range missiles.


at the end I am sure the Argentine military knows that, because the Z-11 helo never was built in Argentina, why? simple China is a predatory power, which build craps, mostly copies, and will give you little tech transfers.


Mexico can give you less tech but as our latest Pe-200 shows we built many things thanks to learning the latest technologies, in fact we build well composites because of the many fuselages we built.

Like I said to you, i doubt you will buy the Chinese aircraft, I think you like Mexico should get civil expertise in aviation.

With us you can lead a 50% lead program, with China you will spend money and almost get nothing

 

[no smoking]

Mexico experience in aircraft is not close to zero, here you have mexican workers assembling a Bombardier aircraft, at Bombardeir{s Queretaro Mexico plant

......

Yah, sure, assembling foreign civilian planes and supplying components to the components of jet engine bring mexico great amount of experience of developing a modern fighter jet.

The only thing that Mexico developing that comes close to military is this:

This plane is definitely fitting the major task of Mexico air force: intercept those transport planes of drug dealers. I am not sure if Argentina can find enough drug transporters to intercept.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

Yah, sure, assembling foreign civilian planes and supplying components to the components of jet engine bring mexico great amount of experience of developing a modern fighter jet.

The only thing that Mexico developing that comes close to military is this:

View attachment 91725

This plane is definitely fitting the major task of Mexico air force: intercept those transport planes of drug dealers. I am not sure if Argentina can find enough drug transporters to intercept.

military aircraft are most of the time waste of money
example

let us say they built 50 it is 100 engines


Frisa supply to Pratt and Whittney and Rolls Royce and Safran made 3d engine blades in Mexico tell me how many engines have engine parts made in Mexico.

Consider we built parts for most of Airbus, Boeing Bombardier or Embraer aircraft.

reality Check

J-20 or JF-17 built in small numbers at a minimun of 15000-40 000 dollars flight hour.

Airbus or Boeing fly in almost all countries, yes Chengdu build fighters but we built parts used in most aircraft jet engines.

Pe-200 is not that great, but was built with many mexican made technologies, and we still do not need it because the reality is if you make something you need make money.

In reality even your C919 has parts made in mexico

Safran and Albany inaugurate third composite fan blade production plant for LEAP engine, in Mexico
Querétaro (Mexico), February 21, 2018
Safran and Albany inaugurated today, in Mexico, a third joint manufacturing plant to make composite parts for the LEAP aircraft engine. The inauguration ceremony was attended by Francisco Domínguez Servién, Governor of the State of Querétaro, Gerardo Ruiz Esparza, Mexico's Minister of Communications and Transport, Philippe Petitcolin, Chief Executive Officer of Safran, Olivier Andriès, Chief Executive Officer of Safran Aircraft Engines, and Joseph Morone, President and Chief Executive Officer of Albany International Corp.
This third joint plant is similar to and complements the two existing plants in Rochester, New Hampshire (United States), and Commercy (eastern France), inaugurated in 2014. It involved a total investment of about US$100 million and delivered its first parts in October 2017, primarily making 3D woven composite fan blades for the LEAP engine from CFM International*. As the LEAP program develops, this plant will also make guide vanes. The investment needed to add this capability will start this year, with delivery of the first parts expected in January 2019.

Safran and Albany inaugurate third composite fan blade production plant for LEAP engine, in Mexico

Querétaro (Mexico), February 21, 2018 Safran and Albany inaugurated today, in Mexico, a third joint manufacturing plant to make composite parts for the LEAP aircraft engine.

www.safran-group.com

Frisa Forjados reported it has signed a new long-term supply agreement with Rolls-Royce Plc, for forged rings and casings in support of current and future aircraft engine programs. The contract has a value of approximately $200 million, according to Frisa, though the length and other terms were not reports.

Rolls Places $200-Million Parts Contract with Frisa

Components for current/future engine programs Second LTSA of 2013

www.forgingmagazine.com

 

[MiG-29SMT]

Yah, sure, assembling foreign civilian planes and supplying components to the components of jet engine bring mexico great amount of experience of developing a modern fighter jet.

The only thing that Mexico developing that comes close to military is this:

View attachment 91725

This plane is definitely fitting the major task of Mexico air force: intercept those transport planes of drug dealers. I am not sure if Argentina can find enough drug transporters to intercept.

Frisa Forjados reported it has entered into a long-term agreement with Pratt & Whitney, to produce and supply forged rings and casings for the new PurePower PW1000G turbofan engines. Specific terms of the deal were not announced, though the forger indicated it carries a value above $150 million.

Pratt & Whitney’s PW1000G is a high-bypass geared turbofan engine that has been selected to power several commercial aircraft programs, including the Bombardier CSeries, Mitsubishi Regional Jet, and Embraer's redesigned E-Jet regional aircraft. It is offered as an option for the Irkut MS-21 and Airbus A320neo aircraft

Frisa in LTSA with P & W for Rings, Casings

PW1000G is a high-bypass geared turbofan engine Frisa strengthens its position as a supplier of forged rings for aerospace

www.forgingmagazine.com

military aircraft are useless in many ways because the use of fighter aircraft only can bring broken noses, commercial aircraft will bring money for sure, so while our experience is limited, in reality it willl bring more to Argentina benefits than disadvantages

 

[lixun]

Although I am Chinese, I want to make an objective evaluation of the JF17. The Pakistan Air Force cannot compete with the Indian Air Force. Pakistan can only rely on 76 F16. The Indian Air Force has 272 Su30 and 50 Mirage 2000-5. Pakistan and the Indian Air Force will gain an overwhelming advantage over Pakistan sooner or later, but the arrival of JF17 has delayed this advantage for 10 years. As a multi-purpose light fighter, JF17 performs a large number of ground attack missions and sea strike missions. At the same time, to cooperate with the F16 to resist the Indian Air Force in defensive operations, this is the best choice for Pakistan. After all, Pakistan is a poor country.

 

[Lonewolf]

Although I am Chinese, I want to make an objective evaluation of the JF17. The Pakistan Air Force cannot compete with the Indian Air Force. Pakistan can only rely on 76 F16. The Indian Air Force has 272 Su30 and 50 Mirage 2000-5. Pakistan and the Indian Air Force will gain an overwhelming advantage over Pakistan sooner or later, but the arrival of JF17 has delayed this advantage for 10 years. As a multi-purpose light fighter, JF17 performs a large number of ground attack missions and sea strike missions. At the same time, to cooperate with the F16 to resist the Indian Air Force in defensive operations, this is the best choice for Pakistan. After all, Pakistan is a poor country.

What are combat radius of jf 17 , what is load bearing of its wing ,what are structural compromise Pakistan is doing due to lack of proper manufacturing capability as compared to china , how good are it's fbw system ,what kind of actuator it uses , how good is it's aerodynamic , how potent are older jf 17 nlocks , are they able to be modified to latest standard .


Evaluate all these ,and your conclusion will change from heaven to hell .

.if can't reply back we will explain it

 

[FalconSlayers]

Although I am Chinese, I want to make an objective evaluation of the JF17. The Pakistan Air Force cannot compete with the Indian Air Force. Pakistan can only rely on 76 F16. The Indian Air Force has 272 Su30 and 50 Mirage 2000-5. Pakistan and the Indian Air Force will gain an overwhelming advantage over Pakistan sooner or later, but the arrival of JF17 has delayed this advantage for 10 years. As a multi-purpose light fighter, JF17 performs a large number of ground attack missions and sea strike missions. At the same time, to cooperate with the F16 to resist the Indian Air Force in defensive operations, this is the best choice for Pakistan. After all, Pakistan is a poor country.

The moment I saw a full complete sentence in English from a guy claiming to be Chinese assured me that you are not a Chinese.