ISRO General News and Updates

[Indx TechStyle]

I'm moving this conversation to ISRO General News & Updates so that human spaceflight thread doesn't get ruined.

I understand your perspective on sensitive tech., for dual use technology India will need to follow the established framework with this limit

Appreciating my concern or giving your opinion won't make a change. Neither I'm a PM or military chief, nor you are a bureaucrat. Nor there is any established framework to proliferate strategic tech.

Adn what do you think it will cost? IP of a small modern missile costs billions of dollars. Cost of this much tech will be too much to be beard by entire global South combined.

still the collaboration will be beneficial for India and IMHO India will go to this route eventually India tried with SAARC minus pakis but the countries are geographically too small to come into this framework, only bringing 3rd world and African nations can provide economy of scale and increased clout. Here's why:

They don't have an economy of scale. They combined make a large cluster of small states with nevertheless same economic structures. Neither of country in Africa except Arabic ones in North can match any SAARC country.

If SAARC is using Indian services, Africans can't even use it.

1. Economic Opportunities: By providing space technologies to African and third-world countries, India can foster economic opportunities through collaboration and partnerships. These countries can leverage space technologies for various applications like communication, agriculture, disaster management, and navigation. This collaboration would lead to economic growth, trade, and investment opportunities for India, expanding its global market reach.

1. Howw easy do you think it is easy to "provide" a country with space technology?

Is it all about blueprints? It is about decades long trainings building research facilities, building industrial capabilities and finding market for them for expansion. ISRO's budget might be just $2 billions but space economy associated with it directly & indirectly exceeds $30-40 billions. ISRO is open to provide services to most of world while even not all countries need to avail it. Off course what you want to do requires no less than 40 years and India annually spending a huge percentage of India's own budget with no expectation of any kind of returns in short or long term.

Countries like China & India were exceptional cases which tried to be self reliant and were already somewhat industrialised. Rest of what you call global south doesn't have any supply or demand. It's like an elementary class lid which are you asking for graduation. Even local heavy industries substitute for new aerospace orders. Those are not present in Africa.

2. Market Expansion: Distributing space technologies to African and third-world countries allows India to access new markets. These countries, with their growing economies and populations, present untapped potential for space-related industries. ISRO can offer its expertise, products, and services to cater to these emerging markets, leading to increased demand and revenue for India's space sector.

There are little benefits for India yet in space sector. Space technology is still a research for earthlings and all space powers are spending more than they earn from it. African countries have little interest in any kind of research. Not African economies but only populations are growing. Even large part of their economic growth comes from population while income levels are stagnant or negative. They need structural revisions in their economies before involving anyb kind of industries.

4. Diplomatic Influence: India's collaboration with African and third-world countries in the space sector can enhance its diplomatic influence on the global stage. By offering assistance and support in space-related endeavors, India can establish strong diplomatic ties and partnerships. This can lead to increased clout and cooperation in various international forums, strengthening India's position as a leader in space technology and exploration.

India already provides what can and should be and has strong diplomatic relations for it. If anything more than that was possible, Soviet Union and China would have given them long ago.

5. Human Resource Development: Collaborating with African and third-world countries provides opportunities for capacity building and human resource development. India can offer training programs, workshops, and scholarships to individuals from these countries, enabling them to acquire technical skills and knowledge in space-related fields. This can contribute to the growth of a skilled workforce in these countries and foster long-term partnerships between India and African nations.

India doesn't have a shortage of human resources and Africa is little of no involvement in researches. Their requirements are basic human necessities over training.

In summary, a secular distribution of space technologies in African and third-world countries can bring significant benefits to ISRO and India, including economic growth, market expansion, technological advancements, diplomatic influence, and human resource development. By fostering collaboration and sharing expertise, India can establish itself as a global leader in the space sector while empowering and uplifting nations in need of space-related capabilities.

It is nowhere explained that there is any economic advantage for India. Donating key sector to someone is an obvious economic suicide by all means.

What I'm elaborating that there is no advantage for Africa either. Countries who have interest in space have forayed into it at various levels. Those who don't won't even show willing for involvement.

Economic Complexity Index - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Every country has its stages of economic development:
Agriculture → Proto industry → Heavy industry, automobiles and electonics → Aerospace & advanced electronics.

You can't magically bypass stages especially by "helping" a foreign countries. You will only f*ck them up.

 

[Vamsi]

2 PSLVs also means at least third PSLV/SSLV by year end.

Takes launch frequency to 8 or more this year.

atleast there will be PSLV-C58/Anvesha, SSLV-D3, GSLV-F14/INSAT-3DS from Oct this year.....so total launch count will be 10 this year...one of the highest in ISRO's history

 

[Vamsi]

 

[Gessler]

It's not entirely clear to me if they're talking about using HLVM3 (human-rated LVM3) as a launcher for the capsules already intended to dock with Orbital Reef (i.e. Boeing's Starliner or the Dream Chaser), or looking at a version of the Gaganyaan capsule.

Either way, these are a flurry of positive developments over the last week. My biggest fear with the local space industry was that it would be forced to wither as ISRO's mission tempo alone would not be enough to sustain a commercial operation on the part of subcontractors. But now it seems we have lots of options on hand for being a truly global player in the space biz.

 

[Blank]

Can GSLV MK3 send meaningful payloads (at least a decent satellite) to one of the Jovian or Saturn moons like Titan, Europa. Not much focus there right now, especially by China yet even though they have more powerful rockets. But I feel they may get important later.

I know ISRO is focusing on Venus after moon and mars. But moons like Titan, Europa seem more interesting for exploration of life or future colonisation

 

[TopWatcher]

Can GSLV MK3 send meaningful payloads (at least a decent satellite) to one of the Jovian or Saturn moons like Titan, Europa. Not much focus there right now, especially by China yet even though they have more powerful rockets. But I feel they may get important later.

I know ISRO is focusing on Venus after moon and mars. But moons like Titan, Europa seem more interesting for exploration of life or future colonisation

I think yes but if ISRO is ready.

Like onebe satellites launch rejected by isro but at the pressure of pmo, isro able to launch.

 

[DumbPilot]

we get ghanta out of this, we will hitch share ride on Orion or Crew Dragon, Mudi jee will parade those astronauts claiming that we landed on moon , it will be all good for optics, but in reality it will only kill our indigenous Human Spaceflight programme, we won't have our own spacestation, we won't have indigenous crewed moon mission. Everything will end. It is one of the worst decisions taken by Maulana.

"Indigenous crewed moon mission" ....

Artemis accords will have zero impact on Gaganyaan. As for space station - let us put up Gagayaan first. The rest are pipe dreams until we achieve Indian spaceflight.

 

[Blank]

 

[Vamsi]

"Indigenous crewed moon mission" ....

Artemis accords will have zero impact on Gaganyaan. As for space station - let us put up Gagayaan first. The rest are pipe dreams until we achieve Indian spaceflight.

both of them will definitely happen once SCE-200 starts series production, it is gonna be the key to the future of our space programme

 

[Gessler]

Can GSLV MK3 send meaningful payloads (at least a decent satellite) to one of the Jovian or Saturn moons like Titan, Europa. Not much focus there right now, especially by China yet even though they have more powerful rockets. But I feel they may get important later.

I know ISRO is focusing on Venus after moon and mars. But moons like Titan, Europa seem more interesting for exploration of life or future colonisation

Something in the class of JUICE is possible to throw for LVM3 on a gravity-assisted trajectory to Jovian system.

Jupiter Icy Moons Explorer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But a pure science mission on that scale would cost quite a lot - JUICE for example is $1.7 billion. That's ISRO's entire budget for a year!

To fit within our space science budget, we'd have to plan for a craft with much fewer & much less sophisticated instruments. Beyond a point, it's not worth it to send a mission like that just to take some pictures & basic readings, things NASA probes already did decades ago.

Doing missions to Moon & Mars, even though with basic instruments, has a novelty factor and the whole commitment is relatively short-term so more deliverables are there in immediate future for decision-makers. Jovian system is a very long-term commitment, JUICE is supposed to take ~8 years to get there!

We'll eventually get around to it - but not anytime soon. Keep in mind that even the Venus mission is progressing at snail's pace and if we miss next year's window, the next one is only in 2031.

 

[DumbPilot]

both of them will definitely happen once SCE-200 starts series production, it is gonna be the key to the future of our space programme

Fair enough. I hope it certainly does, but landing a man on the moon and returning him back is certainly no easy task. Let's see how the Gagayaan flight and then orbital rendezvous goes

 

[Indx TechStyle]

It's not entirely clear to me if they're talking about using HLVM3 (human-rated LVM3) as a launcher for the capsules already intended to dock with Orbital Reef (i.e. Boeing's Starliner or the Dream Chaser), or looking at a version of the Gaganyaan capsule.

Either way, these are a flurry of positive developments over the last week. My biggest fear with the local space industry was that it would be forced to wither as ISRO's mission tempo alone would not be enough to sustain a commercial operation on the part of subcontractors. But now it seems we have lots of options on hand for being a truly global player in the space biz.

Tweet talked about servicing than human spaceflight. So, may be using LVM3 as a cargo rocket.

 

[Gessler]

Tweet talked about servicing than human spaceflight. So, may be using LVM3 as a cargo rocket.

Does that require the human-rated LVM3?

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Does that require the human-rated LVM3?

No. As long as you are not launching a module which has or can have crews, no.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

atleast there will be PSLV-C58/Anvesha, SSLV-D3, GSLV-F14/INSAT-3DS from Oct this year.....so total launch count will be 10 this year...one of the highest in ISRO's history

10 is highest ever and not one of highest. And cherry on cake is that there are actually 2 GSLV & 2 LVM3 which take it far longer for launch.

ISRO anyways can do wonders if it sustains this launch frequency of 8-10 launches an year (apart from SSLV) for mere 3 years. All backlog will disappear and new generation satellite constellations & planetary missions will actually get some serious action which have been lying in cold bag for decades.

 

[Vamsi]

Does that require the human-rated LVM3?

a derivative of Gaganyaan spacecraft can be developed as Cargo spacecraft, just like how progress spacecraft is developed from Soyuz

 

[Vamsi]

So, they are planning to use RD-181/191 in SC120 stage until SCE-200 starts serial production

 

[Vamsi]

@Indx TechStyle directly copying from r/ISRO
A talk on 'Strategic Capability Development in Space' by S Somanath
Air Chief Marshal P.C. Lal 38th Memorial Lecture titled 'Strategic Capability Development in Space' on 29 June 2023 by S Somanath. (Thanks u/saddest-boy-ever for noting it)
(from 13m25s onwards)
All slides on Imgur

• Stressed on concept of National Space Enterprise, as it is not just ISRO any more.
• Interim use of RD-181/191 for SC120. (read more here)
• On GEV-ORV
  • 300 to 400 kg payload capability for scientific or strategic purpose. [likely for full scale? (source])
  • 350 km circular orbit, one month orbital stay.
  • ETA Two year plus
  • Note: This settles the RLV strategic objective debate.
• On air-breathing technology development for HAVA Hypersonic Airbreathing Vehicle
  • Started with kerosene based scramjet engine and tested it on sounding rockets (ATV-D1,ATV-D2).
  • Now shifting to Hydrogen fuel.
  • Range of 400 to 800 km! (Note 'range' wasn't talked about earlier)
  • Undergoing testing like vitiated air testing, engine tests soon.
• On SSLV and its on-demand launch capability.
  • Order book of 15 launches already!
  • Designed SSLV to be manufactured by second and third tier industries.
  • Costs at 1/8 of PSLV.
  • Preparing battery of SSLVs for on-demand launch capability
  • On payload side
    • To produce Microsats (optical/IR) via industry for SBS-03 programme (military surveillance)
    • Microsat-2A(MWIR/LWIR 5.6m) Microsat-2B (PAN 1m), Swath 3.7 km at 350km, 37° orbit
    • Constellation of 15 satellites.
    • Improved revisit rate from 2 hour to 1 hour
    • Potential for Visible, Thermal as well as Signal surveillance etc.
• On Gaganyaan
  • Proposing that Human spaceflight technology development has strategic value.
  • LV human rating complete, all tests for propulsion completed.
  • TV-D1 in-flight ascent abort (ACES) in August (abort inducement @ 15 km)
  • Test Vehicle has uses like testing HAVA, VTVL tests and potentially space tourism (See slide 13 here).
• On self sufficiency (See report 377 for more)
  • For space transportation 95% Indian components are used
  • For satellites still rely heavily on imported items (40 to 50%) mainly electronics
  • Composites: Gap area is indigenous source of carbon Fibre
  • Electronics: Gap area is high end foundry in India
• On communication and EO satellites
  • 18 commsats in service
  • About 10% of transponder capacity (33 out of 316.5) is for defence.
  • Working on deep space optical communication, quantum tech and sats with software defined frequency, beam formation.
  • 24 Earth Observation sats in service
• On TDS-01 mission
  • Will have all electric propulsion
  • To be launched in 2024 beginning
  • More on its payloads here
• On EOS-07 aka Microsat-2B
  • Airports Authority of India (AAI) showed interest in its ADS-B aircraft identification payload
  • Can expand it into a satellite constellation with ship identification and also two way communication capacity.
• Advanced GISAT or A-GISAT
  • Note: This is next generation GISAT satellite and not GISAT-2 (for navy)
  • Persistent high resolution surveillance from GEO
  • Coverage:
    • Indian landmass: 3000 x 3000 km in 180 mins
    • Subcontinent and ocean: 6000 x 6000 km in 12 hrs
    • Real time video: 100 x 100 km
  • Currently in design phase
  • PAN (20m)
  • MX (20m)
  • MWIR (150m)
  • LWIR (100m)
  • Video (15m)
• Pitching that Space robotics has strategic value too. Proximity/grappling experiments using POEM/PS4OP are planned.
• On SSA, IS4OM and NETRA
  • Have observed spacecrafts from friendly nations manoeuvring around Indian space assets, monitoring them.
  • Apart from MOTR in SHAR, another Radar for LEO observation in Chandrapur planned. (Chandrapur in Assam?)
  • Optical telescope for GEO belt observation in Hanle planned.
  • Requirement: 6 radars, 12 optical telescopes distributed in Indian region. Plus two more optical telescopes for planetary defence objective i.e NEO observation.
  • Read more here
• NavIC NVS navigation satellites with L1 civilian signal band will ensure availability on mobile phones.
  • Awaiting Govt. approval for expanding constellation as a global service.
  • Indian Atomic clock:
    • Took ten years to develop by SAC Ahmedabad
    • One flown aboard NVS-01 and "working beautifully"
    • Intend to replace all with Indian made clocks
• On serving strategic users
  • Seeking approval for 50 satellites exclusively for surveillance.
  • Infrastructure to support strategic sector to be expanded in coming 5 years
  • Current commsats dedicated for strategic users: GSAT-6, GSAT-7, GSAT-7A and GSAT-7R
  • Upcoming commsats for strategic users: GSAT-7B, GSAT-7C, GSAT-7S , GSAT-32 and possibly an HTS (high-throughput sat)
  • GSAT-32 will replace GSAT-6 and aid in MSS network (two way communication, position reporting for sub-20m boats) around Indian coastline
• ISRO-CNES (France) collaboration for Maritime Domain Awareness Programme
  • Short term plan implementation agreement awaiting Govt. approval.
    • Includes space-borne campaign to get hand wet on operations, data product generation and analysis.
    • Implementation by 2022 (old slide, obviously delayed)
  • Long term plan implementation agreement signed.
    • Scaling up: 14 SAR+AIS satellites in constellation
    • 6 hours revisit rate
    • ISRO to provide: launcher, satellite bus and operations
    • CNES to provide: Payloads
    • Joint development of processing software
    • 2024 to 2027 (old dates, delayed)

 

[SavageKing456]

@Indx TechStyle directly copying from r/ISRO
A talk on 'Strategic Capability Development in Space' by S Somanath
Air Chief Marshal P.C. Lal 38th Memorial Lecture titled 'Strategic Capability Development in Space' on 29 June 2023 by S Somanath. (Thanks u/saddest-boy-ever for noting it)
(from 13m25s onwards)
All slides on Imgur

• Stressed on concept of National Space Enterprise, as it is not just ISRO any more.
• Interim use of RD-181/191 for SC120. (read more here)
• On GEV-ORV
  • 300 to 400 kg payload capability for scientific or strategic purpose. [likely for full scale? (source])
  • 350 km circular orbit, one month orbital stay.
  • ETA Two year plus
  • Note: This settles the RLV strategic objective debate.
• On air-breathing technology development for HAVA Hypersonic Airbreathing Vehicle
  • Started with kerosene based scramjet engine and tested it on sounding rockets (ATV-D1,ATV-D2).
  • Now shifting to Hydrogen fuel.
  • Range of 400 to 800 km! (Note 'range' wasn't talked about earlier)
  • Undergoing testing like vitiated air testing, engine tests soon.
• On SSLV and its on-demand launch capability.
  • Order book of 15 launches already!
  • Designed SSLV to be manufactured by second and third tier industries.
  • Costs at 1/8 of PSLV.
  • Preparing battery of SSLVs for on-demand launch capability
  • On payload side
    • To produce Microsats (optical/IR) via industry for SBS-03 programme (military surveillance)
    • Microsat-2A(MWIR/LWIR 5.6m) Microsat-2B (PAN 1m), Swath 3.7 km at 350km, 37° orbit
    • Constellation of 15 satellites.
    • Improved revisit rate from 2 hour to 1 hour
    • Potential for Visible, Thermal as well as Signal surveillance etc.
• On Gaganyaan
  • Proposing that Human spaceflight technology development has strategic value.
  • LV human rating complete, all tests for propulsion completed.
  • TV-D1 in-flight ascent abort (ACES) in August (abort inducement @ 15 km)
  • Test Vehicle has uses like testing HAVA, VTVL tests and potentially space tourism (See slide 13 here).
• On self sufficiency (See report 377for more)
  • For space transportation 95% Indian components are used
  • For satellites still rely heavily on imported items (40 to 50%) mainly electronics
  • Composites: Gap area is indigenous source of carbon Fibre
  • Electronics: Gap area is high end foundry in India
• On communication and EO satellites
  • 18 commsats in service
  • About 10% of transponder capacity (33 out of 316.5) is for defence.
  • Working on deep space optical communication, quantum tech and sats with software defined frequency, beam formation.
  • 24 Earth Observation sats in service
• On TDS-01 mission
  • Will have all electric propulsion
  • To be launched in 2024 beginning
  • More on its payloads here
• On EOS-07 aka Microsat-2B
  • Airports Authority of India (AAI) showed interest in its ADS-B aircraft identification payload
  • Can expand it into a satellite constellation with ship identification and also two way communication capacity.
• Advanced GISAT or A-GISAT
  • Note: This is next generation GISAT satellite and not GISAT-2 (for navy)
  • Persistent high resolution surveillance from GEO
  • Coverage:
    • Indian landmass: 3000 x 3000 km in 180 mins
    • Subcontinent and ocean: 6000 x 6000 km in 12 hrs
    • Real time video: 100 x 100 km
  • Currently in design phase
  • PAN (20m)
  • MX (20m)
  • MWIR (150m)
  • LWIR (100m)
  • Video (15m)
• Pitching that Space robotics has strategic value too. Proximity/grappling experiments using POEM/PS4OP are planned.
• On SSA, IS4OM and NETRA
  • Have observed spacecrafts from friendly nations manoeuvring around Indian space assets, monitoring them.
  • Apart from MOTR in SHAR, another Radar for LEO observation in Chandrapur planned. (Chandrapur in Assam?)
  • Optical telescope for GEO belt observation in Hanle planned.
  • Requirement: 6 radars, 12 optical telescopes distributed in Indian region. Plus two more optical telescopes for planetary defence objective i.e NEO observation.
  • Read more here
• NavIC NVS navigation satellites with L1 civilian signal band will ensure availability on mobile phones.
  • Awaiting Govt. approval for expanding constellation as a global service.
  • Indian Atomic clock:
    • Took ten years to develop by SAC Ahmedabad
    • One flown aboard NVS-01 and "working beautifully"
    • Intend to replace all with Indian made clocks
• On serving strategic users
  • Seeking approval for 50 satellites exclusively for surveillance.
  • Infrastructure to support strategic sector to be expanded in coming 5 years
  • Current commsats dedicated for strategic users: GSAT-6, GSAT-7, GSAT-7A and GSAT-7R
  • Upcoming commsats for strategic users: GSAT-7B, GSAT-7C, GSAT-7S , GSAT-32 and possibly an HTS (high-throughput sat)
  • GSAT-32 will replace GSAT-6 and aid in MSS network (two way communication, position reporting for sub-20m boats) around Indian coastline
• ISRO-CNES (France) collaboration for Maritime Domain Awareness Programme
  • Short term plan implementation agreement awaiting Govt. approval.
    • Includes space-borne campaign to get hand wet on operations, data product generation and analysis.
    • Implementation by 2022 (old slide, obviously delayed)
  • Long term plan implementation agreement signed.
    • Scaling up: 14 SAR+AIS satellites in constellation
    • 6 hours revisit rate
    • ISRO to provide: launcher, satellite bus and operations
    • CNES to provide: Payloads
    • Joint development of processing software
    • 2024 to 2027 (old dates, delayed)

nglv?

 

[Vamsi]

nglv?

next gen launch vehicle