INS Vishal (IAC- II) Aircraft Carrier - Flattop or Ski Jump

lookieloo

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https://f35.com/building-the-f-35/testing/

F35 is a revolutionary plane, 25 years more advanced then any other plane and still undergoing midlevel testing, there will be a lot of problems. Its by far the most complex aircraft every built.
I've got little patience for LM's marketing spiel as the F-35 is still 6 years behind schedule. That might be just fine for the IAC II (by which time production will finally be hitting its stride), but it's a serious problem from our end.
 
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p2prada

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The distance between the landing gears and the hook can cause unnecessary stress on the aircraft as a whole.

It also requires the aircraft to land at a higher than normal AoA which can cause an accident.

I have no idea how LM has answered this problem, but yeah, this is a problem.
 

p2prada

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Also, you still don't seem to get fighter procurement works. If the IN really wants Rafale for the IAC II, they'll have to place orders some years before the MN run finishes; otherwise, the long-lead pipeline shuts down and they'll have to pay a sizable time/price penalty to get it restarted.
I am pretty sure you realize that is only if MN orders none above the 48 contracted for.

Personally, if I were the IN, I'd also start querying Sukhoi about the possibility of a CATOBAR Flanker right now.
They were talking about a STOBAR PAKFA. Maybe Mig may design and build a CATOBAR aircraft, but there is none planned as of today. Russia may choose PAKFA for all their needs.
 

p2prada

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I've got little patience for LM's marketing spiel as the F-35 is still 6 years behind schedule. That might be just fine for the IAC II (by which time production will finally be hitting its stride), but it's a serious problem from our end.
A million other teething issues will be fixed by then. So we will only have to worry about issues that come up in Indian conditions.
 

Decklander

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Let this ac go to the deck. I have operated from Deck but in a VSTOL, we will see how many of these ac will go overboard and how many will land safely? Things look good on land based facilities but when ship is rolling and pitching, things can go out of hand. However I must also accept that USN has the largest exp of operating fighters from deck compared to anyother navy of the world.
 

p2prada

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are you aware that F-35 has a problem in engaging the wire if it lands between two wires?
I think this issue is in the process of being solved.

The 10 feet gap would mean the pilot needs to show lesser margin for error when he converts from a legacy aircraft.
 

Decklander

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The distance between the landing gears and the hook can cause unnecessary stress on the aircraft as a whole.

It also requires the aircraft to land at a higher than normal AoA which can cause an accident.

I have no idea how LM has answered this problem, but yeah, this is a problem.
It is not just the tailhook distance from the main gear but also the landing attitude of the ac which makes a difference and also the height of the landing gear and length of the tailhook. A small landing gear can have longer tailhook very close and yet be effective while you can have a small tailhook away from main gear and also very effective.
 

lookieloo

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I think this issue is in the process of being solved.

The 10 feet gap would mean the pilot needs to show lesser margin for error when he converts from a legacy aircraft.
There are many problems yet to solve on the F-35, but by all accounts, an unforgiving approach/landing margin certainly ain't one them. In fact, the control software is so good that the Naval pilots actually find it easier to make a faster approach with a lower flap setting/AoA than what the USN prescribed.
 

p2prada

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Let this ac go to the deck. I have operated from Deck but in a VSTOL, we will see how many of these ac will go overboard and how many will land safely? Things look good on land based facilities but when ship is rolling and pitching, things can go out of hand. However I must also accept that USN has the largest exp of operating fighters from deck compared to anyother navy of the world.
I am all for the Navy picking the F-35C if a tender is released for many reasons.

For one, it is a fifth generation aircraft. Beats the Rafale there. Also, we don't know, as of today, to what extent the F-35s stealthiness will be compromised with new advances in radar. But anything that will pick up a F-35 from a reasonable distance would pick up the Rafale much more easily. The Israelis managed to convince the Americans in developing their own version since they believe the F-35As stealthiness will be eroded in the next 5 to 10 years and they will have to rely on their own EW equipment for survivability.

Technically the F-35 will have a bigger and better radar (800mm vs 650mm) and its EW equipment should be at par if not better than Rafale. All other equipment should be more or less at par. The F-35C has a much larger internal volume for avionics. But Rafale has a much higher growth potential as the engines are much easier to upgrade. But this depends on whether P&W hit some sort of a growth ceiling for the F-135 engine.

As for range and endurance, Rafale should beat the F-35C every time when carrying mission loads because Rafale always carries tanks. F-35C should beat the Rafale when it comes to internal fuel (8.8 tonnes vs 4.7 tonnes).

Rafale would obviously beat the F-35C when it comes to performance. The F-35C is G limited to 7.5 while Rafale does 9G with limiters and can go beyond too. In case the F-35s stealth is compromised, its only way out is performance, here the Rafale has the advantage. Purely based on technical merit, the Rafale is better only in this aspect, IMHO. However they say the F-35C will be the best in sustained turn compared to F-35A and B. According to a F-35A pilot, the F-35 turns better than the F-16 and much closer to the F-22, with subsonic acceleration almost at par with the F-22. Nevertheless, the G limits may cause issues for our Navy.

Lastly, training. The Indian Navy has operated the Sea Harrier and adding the F-35C to the inventory will help us get valuable training experience from the USMC and maybe even the Royal Navy who have operated such aircraft. So conversion pilots will find it very easy during training. The Navy may learn cheaper and easier alternatives when switching from a Sea Harrier infrastructure and logistics to the F-35C rather than Rafale due to the 10 years of experience the Marines would have had by then.

Of course there are both advantages and disadvantages when it comes to dealing with the Americans, mainly political advantages and industrial disadvantages. The threat of sanctions is obviously the biggest. With just 30 or 40 aircraft we may not be able to negotiate a decent ToT package either.
 

p2prada

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There are many problems yet to solve on the F-35, but by all accounts, an unforgiving approach/landing margin certainly ain't one them. In fact, the control software is so good that the Naval pilots actually find it easier to make a faster approach with a lower flap setting/AoA than what the USN prescribed.
I am pretty sure the landing may end up being controlled automatically by the aircraft rather than giving the controls to the pilot.

This seems to be a new fad, automatic landing and take off.
 

lookieloo

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The Israelis managed to convince the Americans in developing their own version since they believe the F-35As stealthiness will be eroded in the next 5 to 10 years...
Hmm, the Russians/Chinese seem convinced that *stealth* will be relevant for a long time yet. From what I hear, the Israeli statement was a gimmick to badger LM into giving them more latitude in equipment (like the EW suite you mentioned).
 

Decklander

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Pls understand that whatever is atmosphere bound is going to be history soon. We need to put money in space based weapons now to reap the rewards. Stealth etc are going to be obselete in next 15-20 yrs.
 

Decklander

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Well gee, why don't ya'll just forget about IAC II and tow IAC I out to be an artificial reef? :confused:
Have you ever heard of regional conflicts with dissimiler strength. Conventional will be needed but when we talk of superpowers with tons of money at thier disposal, the game changes.
I was a boxer in NDA and I am boxing Blue. We have weight categories in boxing and wrestling, why???
 

lookieloo

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@ Decklander

Space based? NDA? Boxing? Weight catagories? Wha...............................? :wacko:
 

p2prada

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Hmm, the Russians/Chinese seem convinced that *stealth* will be relevant for a long time yet. From what I hear, the Israeli statement was a gimmick to badger LM into giving them more latitude in equipment (like the EW suite you mentioned).
Depends on the definition of stealth. The Russians haven't compromised on agility for stealth. Sure PMF is stealthy, but they haven't placed their bets only on stealth, like LM did with F-35.

The Israeli view is quite realistic. They just want the next best option to stealth in their own hands, that's EW, rather than base it on BAE's universal EW solution which may not necessarily be useful in the Israelis threat environment. It is the same for us.

Pls understand that whatever is atmosphere bound is going to be history soon. We need to put money in space based weapons now to reap the rewards. Stealth etc are going to be obselete in next 15-20 yrs.
Not until ISRO gets that dumb rocket working. GSLV will solve a whole bunch pf problems as long as it works. A 1 tonne capability to GSO is quite useless in many aspects. Will have to scale up to 3, 5, 10 and 15 tonnes before long.

@ Decklander

Space based? NDA? Boxing? Weight catagories? Wha...............................? :wacko:
NDA is National Defence Academy. Like West Point.

He means to say we will have to move up from middle weight to heavy weight category.

Space is the next frontier.

Conventional will be needed but when we talk of superpowers with tons of money at thier disposal, the game changes.
We had this Canadian Lt Colonel on the forum who used to have regular discussion with our mil pros like Ray and Deltacamelately. I am sure you may have heard of OOE. Anyway, he is of the opinion that China is focusing more on conventional weapons than unconventional means because they may not be able to catch up to the world's true heavyweights (US and Russia) anytime soon.
 

shuvo@y2k10

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stealth will be eroded with advancement of radar technology like low frequency radars,bisatatic radars etc.so israelis are correct.russians seems to have made a good bet and hasn't compromised on aerodynamics and manuverability for stealth.
 

Rahul Singh

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I think we need to break this down......

1.) The AMCA is a paper airplane at this stage and if the LCA is any example. We are not likely to see the former for a good 15-20 years. (maybe more)
LCA is many example and list of course starts with "poorly executed project" but for the people who bother to read it to last, things ends up as " a hugely overly ambitious project which gave India an aeronautical industry to talk something".

Anyway, i don't expect you to get bothered even a bit because of said development. That however not to say, the by-products of this development won't bother people who are counting on selling their fighter jets to India.
 

Crusader53

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LCA is many example and list of course starts with "poorly executed project" but for the people who bother to read it to last, things ends up as " a hugely overly ambitious project which gave India an aeronautical industry to talk something".

Anyway, i don't expect you to get bothered even a bit because of said development. That however not to say, the by-products of this development won't bother people who are counting on selling their fighter jets to India.
When do you expect to see the AMCA in service. (squadron service)
 

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