INS Vishal (IAC- II) Aircraft Carrier - Flattop or Ski Jump

[Superdefender]

N-AMCA will be the primary fighter on Vishal followed by N-Tejas mk. 2. We will also have heavy AEW aircraf E-2D Advanced Hawkeye and AURA.

 

[Gessler]

At this point, there is as much possibility of India getting N-propulsion for IAC-2 from the US, as there is in the US selling us the F-22 and the Trident-II D5 SLBM as a package deal.

i.e. NIL.

But that's not a problem because we never planned for that anyway.

 

[sasum]

A lot of Indians are misreading India-US cooperation.
If It was so warm as some people have mistakenly assumed, USA will not be giving military aid to Pakistan.

I doubt India can put all its bets on USA.

I squarely blame it on the overtures of that known US stooge, Manmohan Singh. In the process we alienated our trusted ally Russia. 10 years of MMS era will only be remembered for corruption and bungling. When the world is racing ahead in Science and engineering, we are still struggling to master 50s & 60s technology. What China and Western powers have today, we are aiming to acquire by 2030.

 

[sasum]

We should have used INS Arihant reactor to power the aircraft carrier.....
No need of catapult system mig's don't use it...Catapult is used only if we buy rafale-M or f-18's....

The 80 MW pwr reactor of Arihant is too puny for 65000 ton AC. It needs at least 600 MW to meet propulsion and other house-keeping needs. Power intensive EMALs in addition, need a dedicated power plant.

 

[Yumdoot]

Nobody is going to take EMALS+AAG without the tech transfer for Nuke propulsion. And Westinghouse ain't coming into India. Good riddance, I say.

Russian involvement vs. American 'help' is best summed up in Bharat Karnad's words as follows:
http://bharatkarnad.com/2015/12/23/endangering-the-russia-connection/

And Russia has so far proven the best bet in exporting “know how” aspects of technology rather than, as is done by Western firms and govts, trust in the “know who” factor to fetch them rich arms contracts..

As for the extent of Russian involvement in Arihant ATV people can just read up the pages 135 and 136 of "Managing India's Nuclear Forces" - By Vice Adml. (Retd.) Verghese Koithara. And mind you the 'views' of the good VADM reconcile closely with US establishment. Hope that says enough about how lop sided his views are going to be and despite that even he is forced to admit the extent of involvement and extraordinary help by the Russians. Even the reactor is most likely a variant of the then latest finished product that the Russians had in their hands and with Indian efforts we should ultimately get a reactor appropriately modified for our needs at a stage much above the tech maturation point for the base Soviet-era reactor.

Additionally Page 136 also mentions how over 10-15 years the role of Arihant itself morphed from torpedo SSN to SSGN to SSBN. Today Arihant can launch torpedoes+hypersonic BGRVs+BM BGRVs in any combination thereof and do a lot lot else as a true multi-role sub. And nobody even has official acknowledgement about how these late requirements were managed. You will never hear Russians talking their ass off like the way the Americans and Europeans do when caught with poorly designed products. Everything got managed with complete secrecy.

You can only see what happened to much smaller non-black projects like LCA and Arjun when faced with ever shifting goals. Indians pulling down Indians.

For all the bravado by the Indian establishment, they did not even know how to go about even organizing a project the scope of ATV. There actually was a massive ego-clash between various agencies/arms involved to lead the ATV project when the reality was that absolutely none of anyone of them had ever even imagined anything of like nature. The 'experts' with bit roles and narrow knowledgebases were taking the political establishment into a wild-goose chase. And the only reason the delegation of authorities did not change mid way till we got the end product, was only because of the Russian political insistence to partner only the real R&D guys. Had it not been for the Russians ATV would have been executed exactly like the LCA or Arjun - into the ditch goes a black project.

 

[garg_bharat]

INS Arihant reactor is inadequate for this ship. Just compare the displacement. The ship may need four of Arihant size reactors.

Next problem is supply of Uranium for the reactors.

 

[warrior monk]

Ashok Parthasarthi, a former science and technology adviser to the late Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, sums up the extent of Russian assistance: “India's first indigenous nuclear submarine, INS Arihant...would have just been impossible to realise without Russia’s massive all-round consultancy, technology transfer, technical services and training, technical 'know-how' and 'show-how,' design of the submarine as a whole, and above all numerous operational 'tips' based on 50 years of experience in designing, building and operating nuclear submarines.”

According to Bidwai, “Scores of Russian engineers were sent to India to aid the DAE and DRDO....It was the Russians who supplied the vital designs, precision equipment based on their VM-5 reactor, and the technology of miniaturising the reactor.”

And if there were any doubts about the extent of Russian involvement, they were cast away on July 26, 2009 when 143 Russian engineers, designers and consultants – all participants in the project – attended the boomer’s launch ceremony at Visakhapatnam on the east coast.
http://in.rbth.com/blogs/stranger_t...usia-helped-deliver-indias-baby-boomer_533849

He is correct but as far as core is concerned our S2 has core geometry which is somewhat similar to OK-650 core of the 971 Akula class but miniaturized to fit into our hull . The two reactors given to us may have been reactor of the 661 Papa class twin reactor submarine which helped us incredible in designing but in the end India has to make the whole reactor ,the fuel the cladding etc by itself while the Russians helped with other systems which are also important like the 7 bladed skewed propeller for reducing cavitation noise , the shaft system etc . Arihant may also have the twin hulled design of Russian nuclear submarines for reducing the acoustic signature.
Without Russian engineers we would have had problems even in welding the hulls especially the HY-80 steel for our hull .

 

[warrior monk]

But doesn't the deal prohibits US to transfer defence related reactor technology and enriched uranium to India?

Even without the deal US wouldn't have transferred any military nuclear technology to India , even in 2008 US tried to put all our reactors under safeguards including our PFBR which would have eventually capped our fissile material producing capacity for our strategic weapons . MMS our former PM may have agreed to it had it not been the hue and cry raised by the scientific community to stop it. It was also in 2009 when the 98 test brouhaha started which was to put pressure on Manmohan singh to not give up any more grounds to the US.
US will never transfer any technology to India be it nuclear or LBP turbofans (People think US is going to transfer GE hot engine tech to India which is hilarious) or any other tech like Active array antenna units , missile interceptors etc.
US in 1990s actually tried to kill the ATV program by putting pressure on Russia's Rubin design bureau , funny thing India may have started the ATV program to design SSNs to check US imperialism in Indian ocean not China now it is geared towards China.

 

[warrior monk]

I am not clear about US's stance on transfer of military-nuclear technology to India in the wake of signing of civil-nuclear deal. The deal permits transfer of dual-use (civil-military) reactor technology.
Can someone tell under what circumstances the deal goes void apart from India reneging on moratorium on atom bomb tests and denying IAEA guys access to civilian reactor facilities?

As far as my understanding goes US will not transfer any technology to India which can be called strategic only Russia will but at a huge price . Dual use technology like Civilian nuclear reactor can be called dual use like the coolant pumps used in US reactors are highly advanced and can also be used in nuclear submarines to reduce SL level of our submarine.
China has actually reverse engineered the Curtiss wright advanced coolant pumps and may have used in the 093 Shang-class nuclear attack to reduce signature to 110 db.

The deal goes void if we proliferate or test nuclear weapons. If we test nuclear weapons US will take back its own systems and fuel .

 

[sasum]

The two reactors given to us may have been reactor of the 661 Papa class twin reactor

Yes, that is the case.
Minimum tatty characters

 

[Superdefender]

Here, the prototype of INS Vishal, presented in ongoing "Make in India" week, Feb 2016.

 

[Superdefender]

Here, All the ACs (Nuclear/non-nuclear), LHDs, LPHs, and many more.

 

[garg_bharat]

I think it makes sense that india builds more conventional carriers. Show off on imported tech is not the way. Sustainability in a long drawn out war is more important.

India can refuel its carrier at sea or at friendly ports in north Africa, Mauritius etc.

Emals could be good tech but critical thing is supportability. Buying foreign stuff that soon becomes in operational due to lack of support will cause huge waste of money.

 

[garg_bharat]

I have a fear that this overambitious ship may get cancelled. Money is not as abundant as military thinks.

Vikrant is seriously over budget. Even vikrant class is hard to build.

 

[Superdefender]

@garg_bharat, when you build anything for first time (includind AC, subs, aircrafts., etc), it is bound to take more time and will be more costly. Vishal will not be over budget.

 

[Tactical Frog]

DCNS Evolved Aircraft Career looking good too with its Rafale M
https://www.youtube.com/embed/DWYg-VUAi7I

 

[MKM]

I think it makes sense that india builds more conventional carriers. Show off on imported tech is not the way. Sustainability in a long drawn out war is more important.

India can refuel its carrier at sea or at friendly ports in north Africa, Mauritius etc.

Emals could be good tech but critical thing is supportability. Buying foreign stuff that soon becomes in operational due to lack of support will cause huge waste of money.

Friendly ports in north Africa in case of war, can you name some, can be Israel but I don't think it can e done in north Africa.

 

[Gessler]

View attachment 7758 Here, the prototype of INS Vishal, presented in ongoing "Make in India" week, Feb 2016.

It's the Vikrant IAC-1 model.

No one knows what Vishal looks like yet.

 

[Gessler]

N-AMCA will be the primary fighter on Vishal followed by N-Tejas mk. 2. We will also have heavy AEW aircraf E-2D Advanced Hawkeye and AURA.

Everything is right except that it's Rafale-M, which will be the primary fighter on Vishal.

N-AMCA might be seen on future carriers of the class.

 

[Rizvi Khan]

Nice bike buddy........

Thanks man. That's just a pic but I got the same one