India's Interest in Lockheed F-35 Fighter

Immanuel

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I would agree with you Immanuel, except for the A2A part - the JSF in it's "stealth" mode can carry only two A2A missiles internally - it can carry 6 more externally, but that compromises it's stealth features SIGNIFICANTLY (external weapons load makes it as visible as the EF/ Rafale). As a result, the "stealth" mode JSF will have only 2 BVR missiles for self defense and then it has to go into a silent mode to outrun it's opponent(s). Since the new aerial warfare doctrine favors the use of 2 BVR missiles against one opponent, it means that two itnercepting 4.5 gen fighters will be able to disrupt the strike capabilities of a single JSF.
The JSF does not even have a gun, which means that in case of a close encounter after it has fired it's 2 BVR AAMs, the JSF cannot shoot back, but has to run away.
On the other hand, it is rare that a JSF will hunt alone. While in a pack of 4-6 of them together, 2-3 will carry 8 (6 external+2 internal) A2A missiles and be in the "non-stealth" mode - equivalent to the "stealth" mode of a 4.5 gen fighter, the others will be in stealth mode mostly carryijng A2G loads. It is this unique capability that makes the JSF so deadly.
Correction in A2A mode it will carry 4 A2A missiles in total, 2 in each bay.

Kennisgeving voor omleiding

The diagram shows that in stealth mode it can carry 4 A2A missiles therefore a pair will be carrying 8 in total. The CTOL version carries an internal gun on leftside. F-35B and F-35C will have gun pods. so the AF version won't have any problems with dogfights as well. Now, since the F-35 will also carry Meteor due to EU allies buying it, Single shot Meteor should ensure kill against advanced targets. Even with external loads, the RCS will be still way below the Ef or Rafale, it still carries all the sensor goodies which will prevent a enemy lock till its too late. Its sensors should allow long range first shot ability whether in stealth or non stealth mode. RWR will pick up targets very far, jammers will make sure, the enemy can't fire. The jammers will be able to jam long range radars and thus preventing fighters from being scrambled in the first place.

Besides if we were to order now, we'd only get it just around the time the PAKFA is ready too, PAKFA can handle air superiority very well while F-35 goes to work with its ground pounding goodness. It is a balanced aircraft with high technology that EF or Rafale wont be able to achieve for a long time.

Aerospaceweb.org | Ask Us - F-35 JSF Weapon Carriage Capacity
 

p2prada

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The F-35s air to air load out is not particularly impressive. The internal bays can carry 4 missiles, but mission planners will have to choose between BVR and WVR or a combination of both.

The F-22 and PAKFA can carry 2 WVR in the side bays without problems other than the 6(F-22) or 8(maybe PAKFA) BVRs in the main bay.

But F-35 is good for the Navy. They don't need a massive weapons load if the F-35 works together with the N-AMCA/N-PAKFA. Look at F-35 procurement only after 2020 for the Navy.
 

p2prada

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I am happy to have answered your questions. Cheers.
 

ace009

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I am not sure how dependable this report is -

Naval variant of Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA | Defence Aviation

And some counter claims -

Future of the Admiral Kuzetsov and Naval PAK-FA?
With the lack of funds for New Carrier Program. Could we see Russia sell the Admiral Kuzetsov to China and what about the Naval Version of the PAK-FA???

MOSCOW, Dec. 10 (UPI) -- The Russian military has conceded that it lacks the funds to deploy a powerful new armada of aircraft carriers and that no more would be built for at least 10 years.

The admission comes as a quick rebuttal to remarks by an unnamed military source cited in a string of local news reports that Russia was set to begin construction of new aircraft carriers.

The admission debunks earlier remarks, also, by Russia's navy head Adm. Vladimir Vysotsky that a technical project for an advanced aircraft carrier would be ready by the end of the year.

What's more, Russian navy experts divulged greater details of the project at the time, saying a new aircraft carrier would be nuclear powered and would have a displacement of 50,000-60,000 tons.

This week, however, an unnamed senior official in Russia's Defense Ministry told Interfax news agency that the state armament program for 2011-20 did "not envision the construction of aircraft carriers."

He said current funding plans allowed the military to consider new designs but to hold off on any construction.

"Only then -- after completing the advanced designs -- can we examine the expediency of building aircraft carriers," the official said.

Russia's predicament mirrors that of many foreign companies as China -- once Russia's top client -- starts to compete in global markets with advanced trains, power-generating equipment and other civilian products based on technology obtained from the West.

The military's embarrassing admission signaled Russia's struggle to keep up with President Dmitry Medvedev's stated commitment to modernize a Soviet-era force that has lost its eminent position on the high seas.

Pundits said that the Interfax dispatch appeared to stoke initial confusion among Russia's military brass.

"It was denied by one unnamed official and received with blanket silence by the Defense Ministry itself," the Defense News Web site reported. Then, though, Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyokov accepted that it was true.

At the height of its military might, the former Soviet Union had five aircraft carriers. It now has only one -- the Admiral Kuzetsov.
As for the PAK-FA naval, this would only fly if a major investor were to show some interest in the project.
An interesting read ...

De-constructing Sukhoi’s PAK-FA | USNI Blog
 
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Zebra

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AN/AAQ-37 Electro-Optical Distributed Aperture System (EO DAS) for the F-35

[video]http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solutions/f35targeting/assets/eodasvideo.html[/video]
 
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Zebra

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AN/APG-81 AESA Radar for the F-35

[video]http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solutions/f35aesaradar/assets/apg81video.html[/video]
 

hit&run

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Vertical Landing F-35
 
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ace009

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That's the one causing so much delay and problems in the F-35 program and was facing the chopping block. I think the USMC wanted it badly.
 

Sridhar

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[h=3]F-35 officially 7 years late for USAF service[/h]
The United States Air Force (USAF) has officially stated that initial operating capability (IOC) for the F-35 won't happen until sometime in 2018. This was sort of expected when looking at the tea leaves over the past several months.

F-35 IOC for the USAF is now 7 years late compared to the original plan back in 2001.

Trends and program progress would indicate this will slip again.

Until then, USAF can count on about 300-350 F-16s being modernised with AESA and airframe work. Which will give them about another 7-8 years of additional life depending on each airframe. F-16 Blocks have various health issues. For instance, Block 4X are now very old. The smaller number of Block 5X are no longer young. USAF thinks they can do more above the 300-350 but I wouldn't count on it.

There are around 170-some F-15Cs that will get AESA and various upgrades which will allow them to operate out to the 2020s. We will have 170-some F-22s. When you get rid of the small-motor F-15Es, we will have a few handfuls of large motor F-15Es.

Add all that up and take away some for not being combat-coded, and that is the fast-jet fighter force for the USAF for the 2020-2030 era.

The idea that the F-35 will be able to be helpful in recapitalising the USAF fighter force doesn't seem very credible.
Eric Palmer blog: F-35 officially 7 years late for USAF service
 

Sridhar

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[h=3]The F-35 loses the value comparison to the Super Hornet[/h]
Comparing the Super Hornet to the F-35....

Take an aircraft that is in production and has some warts on it, and it completely beats anything that the F-35 program can ever be.

Why? Because the F-35 program is deficient.

Neither aircraft will be able to stand up to major threats in the coming years; yet there is a lot of need for second tier fighter aircraft. And we don't need a second-tier strike-fighter at an outrageous cost.

When looking at the chart below, it is hard to believe that the F-35 has sensor fusion when the DAS / helmet fiasco has ruined any claim of greatness. Check your 6? Good luck with that.




If you are flying the F-35B or C, you may have left the deck that day without a gun.

Close air support? Nothing of value here that a Super Hornet--especially a 2 seat variant can't do better--and safer.

The Joint Commander will not see F-35 networking of worth until Block 4 thru 6...if it ever gets that far.

As for combat radius... well since the claims below do not come from the F-35 faith-based community, they can only be wrong?

All something to consider for Canada; who do not have much in writing stating they must maintain regional air superiority. Since they have stated they are not in the market for the F-22, that issue is settled.

http://www.box.net/embed/xmmxatsvql86vjj.swf
[video]http://www.box.net/embed/xmmxatsvql86vjj.swf[/video]

So, mediocrity beats a failed program. But why do we have to settle for mediocrity?

Eric Palmer blog: The F-35 loses the value comparison to the Super Hornet
 

sob

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With this we can see the stealth version of F 15 making a backdoor entry in the USAF.
 

ace009

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[h=3]The F-35 loses the value comparison to the Super Hornet[/h]
Comparing the Super Hornet to the F-35....

Take an aircraft that is in production and has some warts on it, and it completely beats anything that the F-35 program can ever be.

Why? Because the F-35 program is deficient.

Neither aircraft will be able to stand up to major threats in the coming years; yet there is a lot of need for second tier fighter aircraft. And we don't need a second-tier strike-fighter at an outrageous cost.

When looking at the chart below, it is hard to believe that the F-35 has sensor fusion when the DAS / helmet fiasco has ruined any claim of greatness. Check your 6? Good luck with that.




If you are flying the F-35B or C, you may have left the deck that day without a gun.

Close air support? Nothing of value here that a Super Hornet--especially a 2 seat variant can't do better--and safer.

The Joint Commander will not see F-35 networking of worth until Block 4 thru 6...if it ever gets that far.

As for combat radius... well since the claims below do not come from the F-35 faith-based community, they can only be wrong?

All something to consider for Canada; who do not have much in writing stating they must maintain regional air superiority. Since they have stated they are not in the market for the F-22, that issue is settled.

http://www.box.net/embed/xmmxatsvql86vjj.swf
[video]http://www.box.net/embed/xmmxatsvql86vjj.swf[/video]

So, mediocrity beats a failed program. But why do we have to settle for mediocrity?

Eric Palmer blog: The F-35 loses the value comparison to the Super Hornet
That's an old old story and Palmer has trashed the F-35 several times citing that Canada can do without it. Problem is, canada has no aviation industry to speak of and their choices were the superhornet, the F-35, or one of the Eurocanards. Back in 2001, when Canada joined the program, the F-35 seemed the best bet. Now, if Canada wants to bail, they will have to writeoff whatever few hundred million dollars they have sunk in the F-35 program - but they are too cheap to do that too.
So, long story short, in spite of what Palmer says, the Royal Canadian Air-Force still swears by the F-35. AND they re buying the F-35A conventional fighter - with Guns, Networking, DAS and all the bells and whistles.
 

Neil

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Why is US peddling a hangar queen?




A multi-role combat aircraft is one of those things air forces the world over love for no good reason other than the desire to fly a plane that can do everything. Some 30 years ago, when the Indian Air Force selected the Jaguar as an MRCA (Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) when plainly it was only a low level short range strike plane, I had pointed out that the trouble with aircraft designed for multiple missions is that they cannot perform any particular role very well.

Nothing has changed, except now "medium range" is added to the Air Staff Quality Requirements, two planes have been shortlisted, and the US is trying to scramble the competition by offering the Lockheed Martin Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) F-35 Lightning-II just as the bids by Dassault Avions for its Rafale fighter and by the European consortium EADS for its Typhoon warplane were being opened. This offer, while sudden, was not entirely unexpected, and has a whiff of the spoiler even though there's a more substantive reason behind it. In any event, if aircraft quality and performance is what matters, scrutinising the JSF makes sense.
JSF can, at best, be considered a work in progress, and at worst an enormously expensive failure, that has already racked up 89 per cent cost-over-run and time delays of several years, with no end in sight to major design and technology problems confronting it. Winslow Wheeler, a combat aviation expert formerly with the US' government accountability office (GAO) and ex-staff adviser to several US senators, deems this aircraft "a bad idea that shows every sign of turning into a disaster as big as the F-111 fiasco of the 1960s."

The serious nature of F-35's troubles is not a secret. According to news reports, the Pentagon's director of operational test & evaluation earlier this year pointed to a raft of problems afflicting the JSF, among them, the "transonic wing roll-off (and) greater than expected sideslip during medium angle of attack testing", unreliability of the components, the after-burner on the Pratt & Whitney F-135 engine disrupting the air flow causing severe vibrations and preventing realisation of maximum power, helmet-mounted display that has restricted testing to the preliminary Block 0.5 and Block 1 mission systems software, and the inability of the on-board inert gas generation system to obviate the buildup of oxygen in fuel tank that can result in fire and explosion.

A news story additionally revealed significant structural weakness in the "forward root rib" providing "core strength of the wings", and a recent GAO report referred to the faulty manufacturing of the outer mould of the aircraft that has undermined its stealth characteristics, rectifying which, it said, has major cost and time impacts.

JSF, it turns out, is an over-weight (49,500 pounds at takeoff in air-to-air role), under-powered (with an engine rated at 42,000 pounds of thrust) aircraft with a relatively small wing span (460 square feet), rendering it, in Wheeler's words, "appallingly unmaneuverable" and in the same league as the short-lived F-105. Worse, it has only two tons of ordnance carrying capacity in its internal bays; loading additional bombs and weapons on outer wing stations will light up the aircraft like a Christmas tree on enemy radar, making nonsense of its vaunted stealth qualities. And in ground support mission, it is seen as a "non-starter" — "too fast to independently identify targets, too fragile to withstand ground fire", and too lacking in payload capacity, including fuel, to pull useful loiter time over battlefield.

The crux of the problem, according to Wheeler, is that the JSF "has mortgaged its success on a hypothetical vision of ultra long-range (air-to-air) radar"¦ that has fallen on its face many times in real war", eventuating in performance that is "embarrassing in the air-to-air role" even when compared to "elderly" aircraft such as the A-10.

But that's not the half of it! The F-35, when it enters service, will be the least test-proven of any new aircraft. In this regard, the GAO report mentions that "Open air testing (is) constrained by range limitations that are incapable of providing realistic testing of many key (Block 3 systems software-driven) capabilities" that are available, but mostly on paper. What this means, according to Wheeler, is that 97 per cent of "flight testing (is) still unflown" and eventually only 17 per cent of JSF's flight characteristics will be physically tested and proven. Dismayed as much by the sub-standard aircraft in the offing and the escalating costs as by the unwillingness of the US to share "critical technologies", many of the Nato partners have reduced their requirement of this aircraft. Britain, for instance, has cut back to 40 F-35s from its initial order of 138 aircraft, and Israel, which contracted for 20 JSFs, is seeking refurbished F-16s and F-18s instead, as a near and middle-term solution.

The F-35 has been pushed into a virtual death spiral also by the seemingly insurmountable difficulties facing its vertical take-off variant, compelling the Royal Navy to junk it, a decision the US Navy and the US Marines are expected to soon follow. Costly attempts to rectify design flaws and to meet performance criteria amidst slashed domestic and foreign sales have raised the programme expenditure to the one-trillion-dollar level and the unit price of this platform to a "catastrophically high" $200 million, leading the US Congress to threaten a cut-off in funding.

It is the imperative to save the JSF programme that has prompted Washington to offer this plane to IAF. Delhi has to decide which combat aircraft industry — American, French or European, it will play the white knight to. Lockheed will flourish even if India rejects the F-35. But failure to sell Rafale or the Eurofighter will respectively put the survival of future combat aircraft development and production in France at risk and severely dent the prospects of EADS.

With so much at stake and the urge to recover some of the costs, France and the consortium of European countries will be prepared to give far more in return and by way of offsets to get a deal done.


Why is US peddling a hangar queen? | idrw.org
 
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India's military purchases: Only the best should do - The Economic Times

India's military purchases: Only the best should do

The US has reiterated a 2005 offer to share hi-tech in defence with India, although this time it appears to be more meaningful and realistic of India's futuristic requirements.

For instance, the US Department of Defense (DoD) has in a recent report to the powerful Senate Armed Services Committee suggested that "should India indicate interest in the JSF, the United States would be prepared to provide information on the JSF and its requirements (infrastructure, security, etc.) to support India's future planning".

In fact, an indication in this perspective was given by Lockheed Martin's Vice President for Business Development Orville Prins in January 2010 when he told India Strategic defence magazine (..:: India Strategic ::.. Home Page: The authoritative monthly on Defence and Strategic Affairs.) that a presentation about the JSF was made to the Indian Navy after it expressed interest in the newer generation of aircraft for its future carrier-based aircraft requirements. Although weapon systems are made in the US by leading companies, they are not authorized to even suggest sales unless there are blessings from the State and Defense Departments.

However, there is perhaps not much hope for the JSF unless the Indian government cancels its agreement with Russia for the nascent Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) or decides to go in for both the options, which sounds difficult if not unlikely. have a tremendous weakness in electronics warfare systems compared to both the Americans and Europeans, and the FGFA's engines are also yet to be developed. At present, the prototypes are using Sukhoi Su-30 engines.

Even with these, the cost for 148 single seat and 48 twin seater FGFAs, now called Perspective Multirole Fighters (PMF), is estimated to be a huge $35 billion.

In this context, it has to be noted that since 2005, when the US had announced a sea change in its foreign policy to assist India become a global power, India has bought or contracted some $10 billion worth of aircraft and systems from the US. Still, there are many critical technologies that India needs and the US has undeniably the best of them thanks to the billions it pours into military R&D.

There are unmanned aircraft, many onboard systems and components like EW systems, combat radars for aircraft, ships, tanks and land vehicles from companies like Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, Honeywell, Northrop Grumman, Boeing and United Technologies that could be offered to India without strings.

Notably, irrespective of what is sold by the US to India, the official mention of JSF for India, even within its own system, is a powerful indicator of the extent to which the US administration would go in the future. It is in fact a reiteration of the policy adopted and declared by the previous George Bush administration.

For India, there is an opportunity, if the country chooses to go forward in acquiring a quantum jump in technologies.

There is no way that New Delhi would give up its friendly ties with Moscow, but then Russia has limitations. Moscow does not have the sophistication in many systems, it is not able to ensure near-future or lifetime support, and has the negative capability to go back on its own words as it did in the case of aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov.

Reports emanating from Moscow already indicate that India's 2009 proposal to develop a Multi-role Transport Aircraft (MTA) in cooperation with Russian expertise is also in jeopardy with the Russians already demanding more money and less involvement.

India would need to balance friendship with Russia and the latter's inability to support India's modernisation programmes. Russia has to accede to its weaknesses and admit them in all fairness. And thanks to the need to phase out the large Soviet-vintage inventory in the Indian Army, Navy and Air Force, India can still continue to buy some systems from Russia and some highly sophisticated equipment from the west, the US included.

According to figures presented at a recent seminar on acquisitions, former secretary (Defence Finance) Vinod Misra projected spends of $235 billion over the next 10 years or so.

That is more than enough if India wants to keep everyone happy, but the key has to be to build an edge by acquiring the best for the Indian defenders. The Indian soldier has to have the edge even in the best; it is his own life and the security of India that warrant this. And the edge in techno-quality would be the only guarantee to deter a war, or to be able to punish an aggressor effectively.

Let the armed forces decide what is the best, and so be it. If the Indian Air Force and the Indian Navy think that an aircraft like the JSF can give an edge and is also cost-effective, then the government should give it serious consideration.
 

Zebra

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Even with these, the cost for 148 single seat and 48 twin seater FGFAs, now called Perspective Multirole Fighters (PMF), is estimated to be a huge $35 billion.

( Source : India's military purchases: Only the best should do - The Economic Times )


The price for 200 FGFA $ 35 billion , is faw cost ?

any idea please .
 

p2prada

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Even with these, the cost for 148 single seat and 48 twin seater FGFAs, now called Perspective Multirole Fighters (PMF), is estimated to be a huge $35 billion.

( Source : India's military purchases: Only the best should do - The Economic Times )


The price for 200 FGFA $ 35 billion , is faw cost ?

any idea please .
The cost was estimated to be that much with 300 fighters. With 214 fighters the cost will reduce by $10Billion at the very least. It's 166 PAKFAs and 48 FGFAs. Considering there will be more PAKFAs from the initial estimate of 50 we know the cost will be a little lower considering the FGFA will be more expensive.
 

ace009

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I am not sure any of these numbers make any sense. Till the first PAK-FA rolls out and the FGFA production is set to begin, any and all of these numbers are about as accurate as my 2 year old sons counting skills.
 

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India and the F-35

After years of development, U.S. government and defense industry representatives have actively started the process of selling the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) overseas. Recent focus has fallen on India and Japan, two Asian powers that Washington sees as important to its future involvement in regional affairs.

The United States' 4th generation (F/A-18 and F-16) offerings were rejected by India, with European manufacturers Dassault and Eurofighter the only finalists for a whopping $10 billion contract. Still, the Pentagon recently invited India to consider information on the Joint Strike Fighter for future purchases, labeling the craft the world's premier fifth-generation platform and highly suited to the requirements of the original competition.

This clear shift emphasis on the part of the Obama administration and the Pentagon underscores the U.S. government's vision of close Washington-New Delhi cooperation, and demonstrates a growing willingness to interface with India's military endeavors on a new level. With that in mind, and considering that India's expanding military modernization plans go far beyond the current competition, it seems very possible that the F-35 may find itself based on the subcontinent in the foreseeable future.



In Japan, meanwhile, officials announced that the F-X program, a competition to pick the country's next combat air platform, has become a two horse race between Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet and Lockheed Martin's F-35. With its previous attempts to purchase the F-22A, along with Japanese officials' stated preference for fifth generation technologies, it's clear that the JSF is in a favorable position.

For those policymakers that support JSF production, and those manufacturers that have become dependent on its success, these potential new markets extremely welcome. Pressure is mounting in Congress to include the JSF in future Pentagon budget cuts, but new export ventures could help alleviate both the rising price-per-unit costs (now almost at $150 million) and much of the mounting pressure to scale back production of the new sophisticated carrier based F-35B variant.

In terms of tactical capabilities, the Joint Strike Fighter makes substantive sense for both nations. India and Japan are looking to create diverse forces that can provide advanced air superiority, interdictor and strike capabilities in the context of the relatively proximate threat posed by numerically massive Chinese ballistic and aerial units. Adding the F-35 would compliment the abilities of more numerous 4th generation aircraft and help build a strong balance of capabilities amongst powers in Asia.

This is particularly the case for India. From the Su-35 family of Russian aircraft to the advanced FGFA heavy fifth-generation stealth fighter, the capabilities garnered from New Delhi's current range of procurements will enable the country to field a diverse force structure to meet future challenges. In India's case especially, it's worth noting that the FGFA, a future variant of the Indian-Russian PAK-FA fighter, is intended to serve in the same land-based air superiority platform role as the U.S. F-22A Raptor, with advanced thrust vectoring, stealth detection and air-to-air combat capabilities. This would complement the F-35's primary role as a stealthy interdictor in modern aerial warfare mission profiles. Moreover, the naval variants of the JSF may well find themselves extremely attractive to the Indian navy in the future as an alternative to the current 4th generation HAL and MiG aircraft, with the F-35B and C models both capable of being launched from soon-to-be-introduced domestic- and Russian-built carriers.

Despite its many advantages, the biggest obstacle to the F-35 has been the snail-like development cycle and the rising costs associated with buying and operating such an aircraft. Selling the F-35 to India and Japan could remedy this and revitalize the JSF's stagnant future. With the F-35 nearing full production, and with final testing underway on its naval variants, the United States has indicated its willingness to approve at least partial technology transfers, a move that makes JSF procurement more economically lucrative for all parties involved.

Ultimately, a future that sees the F-35 in Asia's skies can only benefit the United States, both financially and strategically as the U.S. moves closer to key allies.

Christopher Whyte is a Washington DC area analyst and graduate student in Political Science in International Relations at George Mason University, Virginia.



India and the F-35 | idrw.org
 

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