Indian Special Forces (archived)

[Waanar]

Why would they carry two assault rifles? Well...setting any personal assertion of the soldiers aside, I'd say if you got pissed off and wanted to maim a jihadi or two, doing so with an AK would be far more arbitrary from an evidence standpoint, considering everyone uses AKs whereas a 5.56 weapon would draw the focus onto special units considering INSAS is rare in CI/CT (not that jihadis don't get hands on few AR-15s here and there, smuggled from Afg). Just a hypothesis.

Haha, yes, thank you good sir. I see it now.

I find your assertion funny that the soldier is literally carrying a 5 kilo hunk of metal and wood just to vent on a jihadi's body after the encounter is over.
Either our soldiers just enjoy the suck of ruck, or they're just too pissed at the Haji to care. That's just wayy too much wrath.

 

[Yodha]

That's a good question but I would guess it is less to do with NV equipment and more to do with how they have trained. Its ridiculous to think that the army cant afford a few dozen pieces of high grade NV stuff. Especially since a lot of that is now locally available. Night operations are very different from regular operations and while there may be many circumstances and locations where operations with NV devices may be overrated, there will equally be many instances where it would make a world of difference.

I would actually like your view on this @Prasanna kumar

Night fighting capability is a huge realm. It is applicable to a foot soldier and a tank too. A good percentage of our tanks, BMPs are night enabled the rest are being upgraded. Infantry still lacks in this case especially rifle mounted night sights.

And when it comes to SF, I have seen each SF soldier carrying his night sight in his tac vest. I'm talking about the rifle mounted ones. We have a good quantity of hand held night sights and devices with all units. And these days, individual units have the liberty to buy and cater for themselves by thus eliminating the hassles of supply and demand from a higher chain of command.

 

[rkhanna]

Night fighting capability is a huge realm. It is applicable to a foot soldier and a tank too. A good percentage of our tanks, BMPs are night enabled the rest are being upgraded. Infantry still lacks in this case especially rifle mounted night sights.

And when it comes to SF, I have seen each SF soldier carrying his night sight in his tac vest. I'm talking about the rifle mounted ones. We have a good quantity of hand held night sights and devices with all units. And these days, individual units have the liberty to buy and cater for themselves by thus eliminating the hassles of supply and demand from a higher chain of command.

Night fighting is less (or as much) about equipment and more about training. an SOF unit ingress and exfil without support from the conventional military so its not just the SOF team that has to be built up to operate in moonlight the entire military does. C&C, ISR, Transport, Support, QRT. That pretty much means the builk of the Indian Armed Forces have to be built up to fight at night. Till that does not happen you will still see very few and shallow operations at night.

And just because you give someone NVGs does not mean they fit for night operations in say 4-6 months. Everything has to be unlearned and relearned. Shooting, demolition, stalking, jungle movement, CQB, - hell even the way you use grenades/flash bnags will have to change.

and Lastly - whats the point of NVGs and doing night time DA raids when all the guns are loud with large flash giveaways.

 

[rkhanna]

Some of the members here certified that our special forces are good for none. I wish that you guys get time to spend with them and work with them. They are different. You'd never hear a NO from them. And what do we do here... Judge them because they don't have a high cut helmet or a comn set.

Which member said our SOF are good for nothing?!

And why cant we pass judgment?

1. This is a civilian opensource military forum - its the whole point of this place
2. Tax Payers prerogative
3. Most people here judge not the soldier but the organization. i.e Indian Military Brass who SPECIALLY when it comes to SOF doesnt know its head from its arse.
4. If the military knew what they were doing (unlike us arm chair generals) then can you explain the formation and the standing down of the SF Regiment in the 90s? Why did the Para Btns mutiny for the same hazard pay as SF in the 2000s? Hell Army HQ intervened to allow the pay, the mutineers were never brought to task and defacto the Para's and the SF were lumped together in capability. So please dont tell me the Military is above Reproach.

When i see 10SF using DJI off the shelf drones, yes i judge,. This is not some regular infantry unit. There the tip of the spear in the desert.

Comms?! Why shouldnt we judge lack of comms. COMMS is the Singular most potent weapon in the Arsenal of SOF. Thats how you do deep special recon, thats how you call in airstrikes. thats how you pass on timely intelligence. thats how you are able to manouver and overcome in the middle of a firefight.

Hell we went into Myanmar with ZERO Comms aside from one CELL PHONE!!! open to be listened to any SIGINT/ELINT Capability in that Area (Bangla, China, US, etc etc) - the OpSec was compromised. but what do i know i live on the internet right?

Now the judgement is not on the soldier. its his Command. These are Command Failings. His deficiency in kit and training is not his but that of Command. and not just kit and training but also utlization.

 

[Deathstar]

Remember no one is questionig an individual here a soldiers ability to fight or skills to carry out required ops. We only question how can we become better and more effective.
If a better BPJ , Helmet , NVG can save lives and increase efficiency of the ops , why cant we demand it or question the authority for not having it?.
Everyone here cares about the soldier on the battlefield and thats why all the criticism.
Why should a soldier lose his life cz of faulty rifle , BPJ or lack of comms set.

 

[Indrajit]

Night fighting capability is a huge realm. It is applicable to a foot soldier and a tank too. A good percentage of our tanks, BMPs are night enabled the rest are being upgraded. Infantry still lacks in this case especially rifle mounted night sights.

And when it comes to SF, I have seen each SF soldier carrying his night sight in his tac vest. I'm talking about the rifle mounted ones. We have a good quantity of hand held night sights and devices with all units. And these days, individual units have the liberty to buy and cater for themselves by thus eliminating the hassles of supply and demand from a higher chain of command.

I think a different point was being made. Why are there not many night time operations (relatively) since we hear a lot of stories about waiting for daylight to start/resume operations. As I have said, m not fixated on NV equipment as such but as to reasons why the emphasis is to wait out the night while other SF operators prefer to take advantage of the night during many of their operations.

 

[Indrajit]

i.e Indian Military Brass who SPECIALLY when it comes to SOF doesnt know its head from its arse..

I think this is the crux of the matter and I referred to it earlier saying that we focus too much on the appearance of our SF and not enough on how they are used. Capabilities are based on necessity and if the bulk of SF operations are that of glorified infantry, then we shouldn’t be surprised that capabilities reflect that.

Nor is this a recent phenomenon. During Kargil , a General asked for PARA SF to do a primarily infantry job, disses them in a book written later and makes pointed references to “poor leadership” of the CO of Para SF involved. The then CoAS was present for the book release and lauds the Gen for his insights, presumably including this one . (The Gen was actually defending his decision to use the PARA SF in the manner he ordered for which he took quite a bit of criticism) The use of SF as some sort of elite infantry has remained in the mindsets of senior IA officers and it hasn’t changed even now. Refer the sending of young PARA SF soldiers to clear buildings in unnecessary haste because there is pressure to finish operations which led to unnecessary casualties , only proves that we haven’t learnt anything .

Forget worrying about comms , we need some common sense to start with.

 

[rkhanna]

Forget worrying about comms , we need some common sense to start with.

We need Structural Institutions with respect to Special Operations. We need a overarching Politico-Military Strategic Framework on employing them and everthing, Commands, training Centers, ORBATs will flow from there.

Secondly with WRT to Kashmir Ops we need to realign the Incentive Matrix for commanders in theater. As long as Medals are being pinned only for successful ops with no other context or criteria, SF will continue to be pushed into high intensity low value operations which should be the bread and butter of Ghatak, COBRA, NSG.

SF should be let loose along the LOC for LRRPs, HVT Interdiction, Intelligence gathering and CI network building. Thats the shit SF did in the 90s as bread in better. The organizing and Raising of the Ikwanis was classic SOF tasking.

 

[rkhanna]

I think a different point was being made. Why are there not many night time operations (relatively) since we hear a lot of stories about waiting for daylight to start/resume operations. As I have said, m not fixated on NV equipment as such but as to reasons why the emphasis is to wait out the night while other SF operators prefer to take advantage of the night during many of their operations.

Because for the most part the rest of Mil Support Infra is not equipped, trained and experienced enough for night ops. everything from Artillery support, Air Support/CAS, ISR etc they are either highly limited by capability or limited by operator experience.

That however should change in the next decade. It will take 5 years or so for this capability to seep through the rank and file across combat arms.

 

[abingdonboy]

Well said. Many here are obsessed with appearances rather than performance. I believe performance should be debated on, if one feels strongly about something...all this talk about looks are unnecessary and missing the wood for the trees and a distraction from the real topic of how our SF are used which is far more important and current topic..

The performance is for all to see.... mediocre at best.

And appearances DO matter, they reflect professionalism and capabilities flow from equipment levels.

 

[Deathstar]

The performance is for all to see.... mediocre at best.

And appearances DO matter, they reflect professionalism and capabilities flow from equipment levels.

On what basis did u judge the performance? I mean whats your criteria.
I beleive u do have actual field /ops experience?? Are retd SF? Or military guy?

 

[abingdonboy]

On what basis did u judge the performance? I mean whats your criteria.
I beleive u do have actual field /ops experience?? Are retd SF? Or military guy?

This discussion has been going on for months now and many pages of this very thread, you can go back and see my views on this subject and what evidence I have given.


I have probably written over 2000 words on this topic here in the last 2 months so it makes little sense for me to repeat myself

 

[Yodha]

I think a different point was being made. Why are there not many night time operations (relatively) since we hear a lot of stories about waiting for daylight to start/resume operations. As I have said, m not fixated on NV equipment as such but as to reasons why the emphasis is to wait out the night while other SF operators prefer to take advantage of the night during many of their operations.

Night fighting is less (or as much) about equipment and more about training. an SOF unit ingress and exfil without support from the conventional military so its not just the SOF team that has to be built up to operate in moonlight the entire military does. C&C, ISR, Transport, Support, QRT. That pretty much means the builk of the Indian Armed Forces have to be built up to fight at night. Till that does not happen you will still see very few and shallow operations at night.

And just because you give someone NVGs does not mean they fit for night operations in say 4-6 months. Everything has to be unlearned and relearned. Shooting, demolition, stalking, jungle movement, CQB, - hell even the way you use grenades/flash bnags will have to change.

and Lastly - whats the point of NVGs and doing night time DA raids when all the guns are loud with large flash giveaways.

Dear @rkhanna I wish you could visit an sf unit when they do night training.

 

[Popeye]

nyctalopia army
................................

 

[Brahmaputra Mail 2]

Was there a conclusion on who this chaps involved in nagrota were? 21 para?

21 doesn't operate there. Different unit.

 

[Deathstar]

This discussion has been going on for months now and many pages of this very thread, you can go back and see my views on this subject and what evidence I have given.


I have probably written over 2000 words on this topic here in the last 2 months so it makes little sense for me to repeat myself

Writing words and having actual experience is quite different. We can always argue about how can we improve but calling an entire unit of SF as mediocre is uncalled when u have zero ground experience and dont we have any parameters to judge. Its unfair to SFs...
Yes if u are basing your opinions after talking to SF guys or retd personnels then its fine.

 

[abingdonboy]

Writing words and having actual experience is quite different. We can always argue about how can we improve but calling an entire unit of SF as mediocre is uncalled when u have zero ground experience and dont we have any parameters to judge. Its unfair to SFs...
Yes if u are basing your opinions after talking to SF guys or retd personnels then its fine.

This is such a poor and lazy argument, most professional commentators have never been an active participant in the activities in which they comment upon.


You don't need to have combat experience to objectively assess the capacities (or lack thereof) of these units- this is just a shield that is used to cover for massive shortcomings in the real world.

I'd argue people such as @Gessler have far more technical knowledge than the average soldier/SF operator in India

And at the end of the day, we all have eyes:

Basically a rag-tag militia


Vajra Prahar, US Greent Berets and PARA (SF):

This is really the best a $3TN USD economy can do? Well okay.

Let's not live in some fantasy land where somehow the true capabilities of Indian SF are hidden from us mortals

 

[Deathstar]

This is such a poor and lazy argument, most professional commentators have never been an active participant in the activities in which they comment upon.


You don't need to have combat experience to objectively assess the capacities (or lack thereof) of these units- this is just a shield that is used to cover for massive shortcomings in the real world.

I'd argue people such as @Gessler have far more technical knowledge than the average soldier/SF operator in India

And at the end of the day, we all have eyes:

Basically a rag-tag militia


Vajra Prahar, US Greent Berets and PARA (SF):

This is really the best a $3TN USD economy can do? Well okay.

Let's not live in some fantasy land where somehow the true capabilities of Indian SF are hidden from us mortals

What sort of argument is this? U assess performance only through your observations , nothing on ground???u can argue of looks , equipments but how can call entire performance as mediocre only based on your observations and photos/videos.
We dont have any actual ground inputs to assess.
Theoritcal and actual practicals are vastly different

 

[Sridhar_TN]

This is such a poor and lazy argument, most professional commentators have never been an active participant in the activities in which they comment upon.


You don't need to have combat experience to objectively assess the capacities (or lack thereof) of these units- this is just a shield that is used to cover for massive shortcomings in the real world.

I'd argue people such as @Gessler have far more technical knowledge than the average soldier/SF operator in India

And at the end of the day, we all have eyes:

Basically a rag-tag militia


Vajra Prahar, US Greent Berets and PARA (SF):

This is really the best a $3TN USD economy can do? Well okay.

Let's not live in some fantasy land where somehow the true capabilities of Indian SF are hidden from us mortals

A rag tag militia that has been superbly successful at thwarting extremist elements for decades in Kashmir. you need to understand what the m/o for sf is.
In India’s sense, sf in Kashmir is guerilla/mountaneous warfare. Which is why the US and India engage in numerous excercises as Indian armed forces have been effective these past decades in suppressing hardcore elements. looking tacticool achieves nothing in this scenario. You need good armor, decent Comms, medikits and good intelligence. Traveling light is the motto. Sure, having high cuts, or better looking uniforms would be cool optics. Do those accessories provide something really better than present gear? Something to think about.
The SF that went into Myanmar and URI, were a different category of gear, men, training.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

The equipment seen with the Para SF during the Nagorta encounter was a welcome change.
Now, the utmost priority should be equipping all SF divisions with the same level of equipment and bring some uniformity when it comes to the ballastic helmets, BPJ,etc.
The STF of the Nagaland Police should be the benchmark of uniformity for the gear.