Indian Special Forces (archived)

[Unknowncommando 2]

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[Unknowncommando 2]

MARCOS & VBSS .....................................................

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

Garud Commandos .................................................

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

PARA AIRBORNE & SF ...............................................

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

MARCOS
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[Unknowncommando 2]

NSG ...................................................................

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

PARA

PARA SF & SFF

PBG .......................................................................................

 

[binayak95]

I have to say @abingdonboy @rkhanna @Unknowncommando 2 our Garuds and MARCOs look the best. There is a uniformity and elite look to them that the Para SF lack. Probably a result of their smaller size and no direct competition between IN and IAF SF units with their regular units. So, their elitism remains enshrined.

Probably why Navy SEALS are respected in the USN but Delta is regarded by the US army as a rag tag bunch of hooligans with good gun running skills.

 

[vampyrbladez]

In this instance, I agree with @rkhanna here. The numbers are smaller and procurement mostly secretive, budgets doesn't really should be a hindrance.

It's nothing but apathy and babudom being baboons.

In that case SG must be decked out like newly wed brides.

 

[abingdonboy]

And there we have it, first clear picture of IN VBSS with Tavors (although sadly it seems a few still have the ancient 9mm carbine).

I have to say @abingdonboy @rkhanna @Unknowncommando 2 our Garuds and MARCOs look the best. There is a uniformity and elite look to them that the Para SF lack. Probably a result of their smaller size and no direct competition between IN and IAF SF units with their regular units. So, their elitism remains enshrined.

Hmm, yes and no. I agree that the MARCOs almost always seem to be uniformly turned out and presentable, I will challenge you to find a image of Garuds (in the real world, not posing) with such standards.

PARA (SF) are just a mess in the feild.


In terms of equipment, they are all still lacking, there are VBSS units in Western navies that are better equipped than MARCOs.

 

[abingdonboy]

The rails can be easily added in as even VBSS teams have VIPER helmets now.

When this becomes standard for all VBSS teams then we can talk, still have only seen it during this ex.

Even NSG has more helmets to choose from.

The biggest talking point about this picture if it was NSG's would not be the helmet (which isn't even ballistic-protected) but the comn headset. But this isn't an NSG set up, this is probably just a member of the NSG posing with a foreign unit's kit as we have seen them do before:

11 - 18 is a lifetime. To see a PASGT back then fresh off 26/11 was rare.

It is a lifetime which is why it's so depressing that little has changed in terms of India's most elite Mil SF units in that time.

@abingdonboy comparing our SOF to Africans is ridiculous and an overreaction.

Well it's not, I provided you evidence, provide me counter-evidence if you want to refute it. Somali and Nigerian SF (others too probably) have inducted contemporary equipment that hasn't really been seen in Indian units ever (at least not in the real world).


Jordian Special Forces:

Tunisian Special Forces:

^ these are countries with GDPs smaller than Mumbai's

Sirji - My point is that for the SOF units of India there is absolutely no EXCUSE for any sort of modernization (deep or not) to take time - The rest of the military can catch up but the tip of the Spear has to be sharp always.

Exactly. This is the issue. After the mid-2000s there was foreward movement and it seemed that Indian SFs were on an upward trend and many of us expected the improvements to keep coming and the upgrade process to be linear, instead around 2010/11 it seems to have ended and since then there has been stagnation. Largely what was in service in 2010/11 is of the same standard today. It's surely a big job to upgrade the entire military but here is a tiny tiny sub-section of the military that could be upgraded for pennies (relative to the total defence budget). It is all about CAPEX but the actual costs are minimal, small arms and helmets are $1000s of dollars and for a military used to spending 10s of millions on equipment it is surpising how frugile they are with the SFs. You could take the entire Indian SF manpower to top tier Western standards for the one off price of a SINGLE Rafale.

Like you have said, there are no excuses here, the "big Military" and civilians are disinterested in SFs, they fail to appreciate their strategic significance even today and hence fail to prioritise them.

In most militaries the SFs are 5-10 years ahead of the regulars in terms of equipment, in India the SFs have stagnated and the regulars are now catching up, there are Ghatak units in the Army that now rival PARA (SF) in terms of their equipment and if they didn't wear different uniforms it would now be a struggle to tell the difference between a IN VBSS team and MARCOs.

Let us HOPE that the SOD that has apparently been given clearance (no real confirmation of that yet) changes this equation, with a seperate budget, headed by a SF soldier and with a strategic mandate from the outset. But I won't hold my breath.

 

[vampyrbladez]

When this becomes standard for all VBSS teams then we can talk, still have only seen it during this ex.


The biggest talking point about this picture if it was NSG's would not be the helmet (which isn't even ballistic-protected) but the comn headset. But this isn't an NSG set up, this is probably just a member of the NSG posing with a foreign unit's kit as we have seen them do before:

The helmet the NSG trooper is wearing is of the EXFIL brand in the pic. The shatrujeet009 one is different. These chaps broke the news of SG having such helmets. So the source is trustworthy. Plus the BPJ in that other pic was standard one.

Jordian Special Forces:

Only thing that stands out is EXFIL style helmets. BPJ in NSG case is actually better. I attached 2 more images to your quote and these can easily pass for the above two.

It is all about CAPEX but the actual costs are minimal, small arms and helmets are $1000s of dollars and for a military used to spending 10s of millions on equipment it is surpising how frugile they are with the SFs. You could take the entire Indian SF manpower to top tier Western standards for the one off price of a SINGLE Rafale.

I have seen a rapid pace of change with every post @Unknowncommando 2 puts up. Actually now things are picking up. Like I said in 5 yrs, whatever will be contemporary in gear will be available with our SF as well.

LOL @ Rafale! Its like comparing 155mm shell to 9mm bullet. Unless you have a tiny military, your purchases will always be top heavy. Strategic Front Forum has an excellent page on personal gear now available for SF purchase made by Indian companies. Pretty sure GoI is buying/ will buy for SF due to Make in India priority.

In most militaries the SFs are 5-10 years ahead of the regulars in terms of equipment, in India the SFs have stagnated and the regulars are now catching up, there are Ghatak units in the Army that now rival PARA (SF) in terms of their equipment and if they didn't wear different uniforms it would now be a struggle to tell the difference between a IN VBSS team and MARCOs.

DEVGRU

FBI HRT

GREEN BERET

No layman can differentiate between these pics as to who is who. Isn't it a good thing than having ragtag units with different BPJ, Helmet, Comms, etc we pool in one place and format across the board?

 

[ghost]

It's all about lack of will,general apathy in hierarchy including senior leadership,MOD babus etc.

For example let's talk about something as basic as body armor.

Here is decent plate carrier available from Indian SM group - QRV FLASH

http://smgroupindia.com/portfolio/qrv–flash

Here are its feature :

Design Attributes
Unique ambidextrous Quick Release mechanism
Simply Effortless to: Wear–Discard–Assemble.
Made using the high quality water and fire proof Cordura Fabric for rich feel and longer durability.
Excellent armour coverage, while allowing all important movement and mobility.
Spacer Mesh fabric inside allows air t circulate inside the body for cooling, thus providing enhanced conform during prolonged usage hours.
Quick and easy access to Soft armor panels.
Accessible pouches for armor plates and can accommodate plate of bigger size also.
Removable collar, shoulder and Groin.
Waist belt for Snug fit and adjusting the width

Protection Area
FRONT I BACK I SIDE I SHOULDER I COLLARI GROIN

Optional Accessories
CARRY BAG
UTILITY POUCHES

I don't know the price of this plate carrier through SM group but in America similar plate carrier is available for 40 dollar = 2,916.60 Indian Rupee.
https://www.opsgear.com/collections/tactical-vests

Here are armor plates from two different Indian companies:
STARWIRE -http://www.starwire.in/bullet-proof-jackets.html


smgroupindia - http://smgroupindia.com/hard-armour-plates

A set of two such plates (front and back) ,providing NIJ LEVEL iV protection will weigh around 4-5 kg in total.

So, basically you can have good protection around 6-7 kg ,assuming the weight of the plate carrier to be around 1.5 kg.As per STARWIRE CEO(in an Interview) their bullet proof vest for military cost around RS 30,000 .So let's assume price of two plates(front and back) around rs 25,000.

So if we take a rough estimate and mate this plate carrier with these plates ,we can get level iv protection, plate carrier within rs 30,000.

Let's assume 10,000 number of soldiers.The total cost of equipping each with such plate carrier will be rupees 30 crore.

But I assume we don't have the money,right!

 

[ALBY]

And there we have it, first clear picture of IN VBSS with Tavors (although sadly it seems a few still have the ancient 9mm carbine).




Hmm, yes and no. I agree that the MARCOs almost always seem to be uniformly turned out and presentable, I will challenge you to find a image of Garuds (in the real world, not posing) with such standards.

PARA (SF) are just a mess in the feild.


In terms of equipment, they are all still lacking, there are VBSS units in Western navies that are better equipped than MARCOs.

Are u sure the ones with tavors,though there is ni doubt about the men with Sterling's.If u look close the ones with Sterling's have blue jackets and have a distinct vbss patch on left shoulders where as the men with tavors have black BPJs and doesn't have any shoulder patch.I think that's a good of marcos and vbss and not pic of vbss alone.

 

[abingdonboy]

Are u sure the ones with tavors,though there is ni doubt about the men with Sterling's.If u look close the ones with Sterling's have blue jackets and have a distinct vbss patch on left shoulders where as the men with tavors have black BPJs and doesn't have any shoulder patch.I think that's a good of marcos and vbss and not pic of vbss alone.

100% these are VBSS, MARCOs didn’t take part in this exercise. Besides these days you won’t find MARCOs without their UCP uniforms very often.

I think what we are seeing here is 2 different VBSS teams from 2 different IN ships hence the differences in plate carriers and small arms.

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

SIG 551 SB ................................................................

 

[rkhanna]

In that case SG must be decked out like newly wed brides.

These are pictures of Special Group. Suppossedly Circa 2004-2006. Pictures came out in 2016. NSG got this Kit

in 2010+

ID the weapons

SG pictures shown recently wearing Civis with their Body Armour and AKs is their primary operating method. They HAVE to mingle with the population and go operational in a fraction of a second. They operated alongside TSD with substantial impact on the Jihadi infrastructure before the MMS Govt shut them down.

THe Gripe with SG is not equipment. They rarely operate in uniform. Its the fact that powers that be dont allow SG to have permanent Cadre. They rotate out after 3/4 years.

100% these are VBSS, MARCOs didn’t take part in this exercise. Besides these days you won’t find MARCOs without their UCP uniforms very often.

I think what we are seeing here is 2 different VBSS teams from 2 different IN ships hence the differences in plate carriers and small arms.

VBSS all the way!!

The helmet the NSG trooper is wearing is of the EXFIL brand in the pic. The shatrujeet009 one is different. These chaps broke the news of SG having such helmets. So the source is trustworthy. Plus the BPJ in that other pic was standard one.


Only thing that stands out is EXFIL style helmets. BPJ in NSG case is actually better. I attached 2 more images to your quote and these can easily pass for the above two.

No layman can differentiate between these pics as to who is who. Isn't it a good thing than having ragtag units with different BPJ, Helmet, Comms, etc we pool in one place and format across the board?

1. I dont agree with the comment on BPJ / Carrier vests of the NSG. they are heavy and the magazine pouches have Steel buttons on them FFS

2. You have shown Pictures of US Navy Seals, US Army Special Forces and the FBI Hostage Rescue Team. They are all part of the National Response Centers Special Operations Capability. Across the Board nobody can do what the other does.

Standardization of kit across US SOF comes from SOCOM and JSOC

The conversation was comparing VBSS to MARCOS and Ghataks to Para SF

 

[vampyrbladez]

1. I dont agree with the comment on BPJ / Carrier vests of the NSG. they are heavy and the magazine pouches have Steel buttons on them FFS

2. You have shown Pictures of US Navy Seals, US Army Special Forces and the FBI Hostage Rescue Team. They are all part of the National Response Centers Special Operations Capability. Across the Board nobody can do what the other does.

Standardization of kit across US SOF comes from SOCOM and JSOC

The conversation was comparing VBSS to MARCOS and Ghataks to Para SF

1. The BPJ used here is of lightweight type.

2. I was talking of kit and not tactics. This was in contention to Ghataks getting similar to Para SF.

3. It's like @abingdonboy said, two different VBSS crews from two different ships.

 

[ALBY]

What is the lame excuse cited for not creating a permanent cadre of SG?
Does military intelligence have any separate SF unit?Asking because I know a guy who is originally from medical corps now wears SF tag which highly resembles Para ,but he told he works for Defence intelligence or something and unit the name he cited is not among the whole Para.

 

[rkhanna]

Yes. Different MI units have their own Recce and Direction Action units.

An example is of the unit in the north east that was accused of systemic abuses and killings for apposing which ran Col Shekhawat into trouble.

Each command MI unit runs it's own teams. Have no clue about insignia . Also don't know anybody in such units. Only talk

SG has temp cadre because it is a non mklimili unit drawing military personnel.

It's like the increment in the SAS. Today The increment aka CRW wing has been rolled into th SAS structure. For a long time they would be seconded to MI6