Indian Ocean Developments

S.A.T.A

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Indian Ocean: Ruling the Waves

After decades of investment and planning, India has finally acquired the ability to indigenously build and operate a nuclear-powered submarine, a feat accomplished by only five other countries, Harsh V Pant comments for ISN Security Watch.


The INS Arihant, as the nuclear submarine is called, will now undergo up to two years of testing and sea trials before being accepted for service by the Indian Navy.

Indian naval expansion is being undertaken with an eye on China, and Arihant notwithstanding, India has nautical miles to go before it can catch up with its powerful neighbor, which has made some significant advances in the waters surrounding India.

Just a few months back, China’s growing naval capability was on full display as it paraded its nuclear-powered submarines for the first time as part of the celebrations to mark the 60th anniversary of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) navy. Gone is the reticence of yore when China was not ready to even admit that it had such capabilities. Chinese commanders are now openly talking about the need for nuclear submarines to safeguard the nation’s interests, and the Chinese navy, once the weakest of the three services, is now the focus of attention of the military modernization program that is being pursued with utmost seriousness.

China’s navy is now considered the third-largest in the world, behind only the US and Russia and superior to the Indian navy in both qualitative and quantitative terms. The PLA navy has traditionally been a coastal force, and China has had a continental outlook to security. But with a rise in its economic might since the 1980s, Chinese interests have expanded and acquired a maritime orientation with intent to project power into the Indian Ocean.

China is investing far greater resources in the modernization of its armed forces in general and its navy in particular than India seems either willing to undertake or capable of sustaining at present. China’s increasingly sophisticated submarine fleet could eventually be one of the world’s largest, and with a rapid accretion in its capabilities, including submarines, ballistic missiles and GPS-blocking technology, some are suggesting that China will increasingly have the capacity to challenge the US.

Senior Chinese officials have indicated that China would be ready to build an aircraft carrier by the end of the decade as it is seen as being indispensable to protecting Chinese interests in oceans. Such intent to develop carrier capability marks a shift away from devoting the bulk of the PLA’s modernization drive to the goal of capturing Taiwan.

With a rise in China’s economic and political prowess, there has also been a commensurate growth in its profile in the Indian Ocean region. China is acquiring naval bases along the crucial choke-points in the Indian Ocean, not only to serve its economic interests but also to enhance its strategic presence in the region.

China realizes that its maritime strength will give it the strategic leverage that it needs to emerge as the regional hegemon and a potential superpower - and there is enough evidence to suggest that China is comprehensively building up its maritime power in all dimensions.

It is China’s growing dependence on maritime space and resources that is reflected in the country's aspiration to expand its influence and to ultimately dominate the strategic environment of the Indian Ocean region. China’s growing reliance on bases across the Indian Ocean region is a response to its perceived vulnerability, given the logistical constraints that it faces due to the distance of the Indian Ocean waters from its own area of operation.

Yet, China is consolidating power over the South China Sea and the Indian Ocean with an eye on India - something that comes out clearly in a secret memorandum issued by the PLA General Logistic Department director: “We can no longer accept the Indian Ocean as only an ocean of the Indians [...]. We are taking armed conflicts in the region into account.”

Given the immense geographical advantages that India enjoys in the Indian Ocean, China will find it very challenging to exert as much sway in the Indian Ocean as India can. But all the steps that China will take to protect and enhance its interests in the Indian Ocean region will generate apprehensions in India about Beijing’s real intentions, thereby engendering a classic security dilemma between the two Asian giants.

Tensions are inherent in such an evolving strategic relationship as was underlined in an incident earlier this year when an Indian kilo class submarine and Chinese warships, on their way to the Gulf of Aden to patrol the pirate-infested waters, reportedly engaged in rounds of manoeuvring as they tried to test for weaknesses in each others’ sonar systems. The Chinese media reported that its warships forced the Indian submarine to the surface, which was strongly denied by the Indian navy.

Unless managed carefully, the potential for such incidents turning serious in the future remains high, especially as Sino-Indian naval competition is likely to intensify with the Indian and Chinese navies operating far from their shores. The battle to rule the waves in the Indian Ocean may have just begun.
 

natarajan

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for all indians ,china may look like brightest light but we all know the one which is going to expire will glow brightly as chinese will surely attain a satuaration point and will start coming down so at that point we will be superior
ps:usa and ussr were super powers but what happened to USSR?? similar situation is on list for chinese so they will go for a ride for certain period
 

Adux

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for all indians ,china may look like brightest light but we all know the one which is going to expire will glow brightly as chinese will surely attain a satuaration point and will start coming down so at that point we will be superior
ps:usa and ussr were super powers but what happened to USSR?? similar situation is on list for chinese so they will go for a ride for certain period
That is just wishful thinking. Though I will go to the lim and say we will out pace them
 

p2prada

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Err.... what's the point of listing ship's volume search radars? artillery finder radars? I'm talking about fighter fire control radars. Please find me an American PESA fighter fire control radar.

Ironically, you listed one fighter fire control radar, which says


AN/APG-66 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Please do some research before saying ridiculous things like "there no such thing as a pulse doppler radar".
The radar follows the principle of doppler effect while the antenna may be a planar array or a phased array. They are 2 totally different systems, the radar and the antenna with different control surfaces.

All AESAs, PESAs are Pulse Doppler Radars.

Doppler effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Doppler radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are various other kinds of antennas too, like Helical Antennas, Yagi uda antennas etc. But, they are not radars as you think it is.

The APG-66 used on the F-16 is a PESA.

Even the French RBE-2 is a PESA and there is also an AESA version. The AESA is a very complex design. That's why its logical to work on the PESA before the AESA.
 

zraver

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China is out building India and IMO their vessels are better over all. India still lacks an Aegis type vessel, nor does India yet build nuke subs. China's growing naval might is one reason India wants the P-8I and one reason the US wanted to sell India the P-8I. Its also the reason India wants 3 carriers, so its smaller navy can fight the PLAN at range instead of trading missiles.

China is not without problems. Taiwan, Korea, Japan and the US all mean that China cannot concentrate all of its force on any one potential foe. The JMSDF is a nightmare for the Chinese. Aegis equipped destroyers, AIP subs, light carriers that can use the F-35C if Japan wants and all under the air cover of the JSDAF F-15J's. The South Korean navy is smaller, but just as high tech. This is besides the USN with 12 super carriers and dozens of super quite ssn.s and dozens of aegis vessels.

The multiple naval threats China faces means India only has to be better than the part of the PLAN China can actually send against her.
 

natarajan

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USA says that Russian Akula-II submarines that India is about to lease are quite easy to detect [As posted in Pakistani Defence Forum]. Will we rule Indian Ocean with such platforms?
stupid comment by some pakistanis
 

Adux

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China is out building India and IMO their vessels are better over all. India still lacks an Aegis type vessel,
Zraver,

Long long time, Hope you been keeping well. You are wrong out there, India is in a unique position of marrying east and west technology, by ship quality, training, exposure and not mention traditions, Indians far ahead of Chinese; that it not even funny. Indians have already been offered the Aegis as well as Indians are installing the MF-STAR on Indian Ships henceforth. Indian ship building quality is far superior, just Indians cant churn them out on numbers. Technology access India has in comparison to Chinese, makes India's check-mating Chinese a far easier option. Just keep those French, Israeli's and Germans in check, and the Chinese wont be a problem.

nor does India yet build nuke subs.
We just built a SSBN, and we are leasing 2 Akula-2 Improved Class from Russia. Two years from now you will see a sudden increase in Indian Naval Might, We also built a PW Reactor

China's growing naval might is one reason India wants the P-8I and one reason the US wanted to sell India the P-8I. Its also the reason India wants 3 carriers, so its smaller navy can fight the PLAN at range instead of trading missiles.
Have you seen the Chinese Navy, it is not even as big as it is made out to be. of 47 Submarine's Conventional; 36 are unusable in War, They are the 1950's Romeo Class Soviet Sub.

China is not without problems. Taiwan, Korea, Japan and the US all mean that China cannot concentrate all of its force on any one potential foe. The JMSDF is a nightmare for the Chinese. Aegis equipped destroyers, AIP subs, light carriers that can use the F-35C if Japan wants and all under the air cover of the JSDAF F-15J's. The South Korean navy is smaller, but just as high tech. This is besides the USN with 12 super carriers and dozens of super quite ssn.s and dozens of aegis vessels.
The more I see the Chinese situation, the more Grim it is in an alliance situation between Japanese, Indians, South Koreans, Australians and Americans; Now that is if they can bring all of them under umberlla. That is another task all together. Taiwan is forgone conclusion, they will integrate into China without the Chinese even firing a shot.

The multiple naval threats China faces means India only has to be better than the part of the PLAN China can actually send against her.
I dont India intends to be even second best to the US, as their economy improves. India is looking at 5-6 Carrier Navy by 2030, There are firm orders for already 3 Carriers of the Vikrant Class and 1 refitted Russian Carrier. India will outpace South Korea and Japan in Technology pretty soon.
 
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SammyCheung

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The radar follows the principle of doppler effect while the antenna may be a planar array or a phased array. They are 2 totally different systems, the radar and the antenna with different control surfaces.
Wrong, wrong and wrong! Why are you talking about antennas all of a sudden? Just admit you made a mistake, okay?

We're talking about fighter fire control radar. My point being that PESA is not a precursor to AESA -- they are not sequential technologies. USA went straight to AESA without making a PESA fight fire control radar. Same thing that China is doing.

Oh yeah by the way China has been making passive array radars on the destroyers, frigates and SAMs for years now, just like USA uses passive arrays for volume search.... but NOT on fighters.


The APG-66 used on the F-16 is a PESA.
No it's not! APG-66 is mechanically steered. By definition, PESA is electronically steered.



Bah... that's my last word on this particular topic. This is getting silly.
 

Sridhar

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Well the "future" is J-10B, which is expected enter service within two years. So it's not some far away event. Expert analysts evaluate the J-10B.
Guys check the profile of the Expert

Feng


About Me

Hi everyone, As I have grown more and more interested in Chinese military, I've decided this is a good place to show the latest news that I've found in different places regarding to the development of Chinese air force and navy. I will also include the occasional personal commentaries and strategic pieces, but it will focus mostly on the news themself. Also, please note that if there are pictures that exceed the boundary, just right click and choose show image or something like that.
Interests



Blogger: User Profile: Feng
 
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SammyCheung

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You are wrong out there, India is in a unique position of marrying east and west technology, by ship quality, training, exposure and not mention traditions, Indians far ahead of Chinese; that it not even funny. Indians have already been offered the Aegis as well as Indians are installing the MF-STAR on Indian Ships henceforth. Indian ship building quality is far superior, just Indians cant churn them out on numbers. Technology access India has in comparison to Chinese, makes India's check-mating Chinese a far easier option. Just keep those French, Israeli's and Germans in check, and the Chinese wont be a problem.
LOL!! Just because somebody offers you relatively advanced weapons, that doesn't mean you magically and instantly upgrade to the same tech level as your arms dealer.

Look at Georgia... are the the same level as the USA? They too thought they were hot shots as soon as they got the US gear. A real superpower proved their dreams premature.
 

EnlightenedMonk

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LOL!! Just because somebody offers you relatively advanced weapons, that doesn't mean you magically and instantly upgrade to the same tech level as your arms dealer.

Look at Georgia... are the the same level as the USA? They too thought they were hot shots as soon as they got the US gear. A real superpower proved their dreams premature.
Sammy, the whole issue here is not about our weapons being superior or inferior to what the US, Europeans or Russians are selling us, the weapons just have to be superior to our adversary...

And, in this case our adversary is China and our weapons have to be superior to them... we aren't going to war with the US or the Russians and so it doesnt matter if our weapons are superior to theirs or not... that has absolutely no bearing in the equation...
 

Adux

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LOL!! Just because somebody offers you relatively advanced weapons, that doesn't mean you magically and instantly upgrade to the same tech level as your arms dealer.

Look at Georgia... are the the same level as the USA? They too thought they were hot shots as soon as they got the US gear. A real superpower proved their dreams premature.
Hows you this fine morning, up here to earn your 2 Yuans from the CCP.Did you just compare Georgia to India/US. Really? India's are not offered, its already on their Ships!!! The MF-STAR is on sea trails now. Now, go work in your toy factory and like Bd-popeye says go have wet dream about those magical Ballistic missiles and those super-duper non-existent capabilities, theives of highest order siphoning of other people's hard work, and yet make them at inferior quality, I mean how disrespectful can entire civilization get! I have proved you wrong so many times it is not funny, and yet you keep on putting up fanboy stuff from sinodefence, worse that nutcase tphuang. All very fair and accurate sources(sarcasm)

Ps: Can a mod put a sock in his mouth until he is cured of his CCPism!
 

EnlightenedMonk

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LOL!! Just because somebody offers you relatively advanced weapons, that doesn't mean you magically and instantly upgrade to the same tech level as your arms dealer.

Look at Georgia... are the the same level as the USA? They too thought they were hot shots as soon as they got the US gear. A real superpower proved their dreams premature.
And, it is not very apt to be comparing the Georgia v/s Russia situation to the India v/s China situation. The difference in military might in the former scenario is much much wider than in the latter scenario...

So, in the latter scenario, the quality of weaponry could actually tilt it in one's favour...
 

Sridhar

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Wrong, wrong and wrong! Why are you talking about antennas all of a sudden? Just admit you made a mistake, okay?

We're talking about fighter fire control radar. My point being that PESA is not a precursor to AESA -- they are not sequential technologies. USA went straight to AESA without making a PESA fight fire control radar. Same thing that China is doing.

Oh yeah by the way China has been making passive array radars on the destroyers, frigates and SAMs for years now, just like USA uses passive arrays for volume search.... but NOT on fighters.




No it's not! APG-66 is mechanically steered. By definition, PESA is electronically steered.



Bah... that's my last word on this particular topic. This is getting silly.
Active antennae are usually phased array antennae at which instead of a central high-power oscillator/amplifier, every radiatig element got a small power amplifier in the antenna directly. This has the advantage that the necessary phase shifters must only process a small power.

Radar Basics - Feeding Systems of Phased Array Antenna

An Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA), also known as active phased array radar is a type of phased array radar whose transmitter and receiver functions are composed of numerous small solid-state transmit/receive (T/R) modules.

They improve on the older passive electronically scanned radars by spreading their broadcasts out across a band of frequencies, which makes it very difficult to detect over background noise


Active Electronically Scanned Array - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


No more trolling if you want to stay here ...
 

zraver

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Zraver,

Long long time, Hope you been keeping well. You are wrong out there, India is in a unique position of marrying east and west technology, by ship quality, training, exposure and not mention traditions, Indians far ahead of Chinese; that it not even funny. Indians have already been offered the Aegis as well as Indians are installing the MF-STAR on Indian Ships henceforth. Indian ship building quality is far superior, just Indians cant churn them out on numbers. Technology access India has in comparison to Chinese, makes India's check-mating Chinese a far easier option. Just keep those French, Israeli's and Germans in check, and the Chinese wont be a problem.
lets go with what they and India have now. I am restricting it to modern designs)

PLAN 38 modern surface combatants and 91 missile boats amred with modern missiles

2x DDG (Luda III)
?x DDG (Luda IV)
2x DDG (type 52)
1x DDG (type 51)
2x DDG (type 52B)
2x DDG (type 52C)
2x DDG (type 51C)
4x DDG (Sovremenny)
4x FFG (type 53H2G)
10x FFG (type 53h3G)
2x FFG (type 54)
5x FFG (type 54A)
1x FFG (type 54B)
1x FFG (type 54C)
91x missile bots 9various classes)

IN 20 surface combatants

3x DDG (Delhi)
5x DDG (Kashin)
3x FFG (Krivak)
3x FFG (Brahmaputra)
3x FFG (Godavari)
3x corvette (Kora)

In a pure India v China naval battle, numbers have a quality all their own. Minus Indian air cover and with China being able to devote all its resources the IN would be swarmed under.



We just built a SSBN, and we are leasing 2 Akula-2 Improved Class from Russia. Two years from now you will see a sudden increase in Indian Naval Might, We also built a PW Reactor
Your "ssbn" is not in service, but in sea trials.



Have you seen the Chinese Navy, it is not even as big as it is made out to be. of 47 Submarine's Conventional; 36 are unusable in War, They are the 1950's Romeo Class Soviet Sub.
PLAN 26 attack subs

2x type 93 ssn
12x kilo
10 x type 39, 39G, 39A
2x type 41, 41A

IN 13 attack subs

9x kilo
4x 209

China has a 2:1 advantage



The more I see the Chinese situation, the more Grim it is in an alliance situation between Japanese, Indians, South Koreans, Australians and Americans; Now that is if they can bring all of them under umberlla. That is another task all together. Taiwan is forgone conclusion, they will integrate into China without the Chinese even firing a shot.
That is why I laughed at string of pearls. All India had to do was warm up to the US and suddenly it was China that is hemmed in.



I dont India intends to be even second best to the US, as their economy improves. India is looking at 5-6 Carrier Navy by 2030, There are firm orders for already 3 Carriers of the Vikrant Class and 1 refitted Russian Carrier. India will outpace South Korea and Japan in Technology pretty soon.
Even if India got 5 carriers, that would only equal 1.5- 2 US super carriers. The USN is massive on a scale you might not realize

Capable of a conventional naval fight
11 Super carriers, 10 light carriers (LHD), 22 cruisers, 55 destroyers, 2 LCS, 30 frigates, 53 SSN, 4 SSGN.

The USN's combat assets are worth something like 4x India's annual GDP.
 

Officer of Engineers

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Officer of Engineers Sir kindly tell why did you write this

"The Chinese have a superiour submarine force over the Indians for one reason and one reason only. They've lost a crew.

I want you to think what I've just written."

I was unable to decipher it.
*** sigh *** This just shows that most here are fanboys and not real military observers.

The REAL enemy against any Navy is the sea. All opposing navies attempt to do is to tilt the odds. In other words, more sailors died by drowning than by all other causes combined - 1000 times over. You just give the sea the chance to drown them rather than to shoot them or bayonet them or stab them. Just let them drown.

By the above, you are NOT a professional submarine force until you lose a crew. You all think the Indian submarine force is a force to be reckon with. Well, here's a hint. The Indian Ocean don't give a hoot. The Indian Ocean would rather drown an Indian submarine without a thought.

And this is why the Chinese are a better submarine force than the Indians. They've lost a crew. They learned that it is not the enemy who will kill them but their own incompetence. A single crew member forgot to flip a switch.

The Indians have not learned this lesson. You all think that they're competent enough to avoid these mistakes. Professional crews know otherwise ... and you don't.
 

Adux

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I dont agree with that assessment at all, Indians even bought the Deep Sea Rescue Vessel even though they have not lost a crew, but they learnt from the Kursk disaster, And that happened to a Force, which has lost crew before! I think it is more to do with Tradition and Vision. Which was the main difference between Eastern and Western Navy's.
 

p2prada

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Wrong, wrong and wrong! Why are you talking about antennas all of a sudden? Just admit you made a mistake, okay?

We're talking about fighter fire control radar. My point being that PESA is not a precursor to AESA -- they are not sequential technologies. USA went straight to AESA without making a PESA fight fire control radar. Same thing that China is doing.
Ok. My bad the version used on the F-16 is Mechanically Steered. But, I was talking about the electronically scanned version on the B-1 Bomber which is a variant of the APG-66..... AN/APQ-164 / AN/APG-164

Now, let me explain the difference between a radar and an antenna.

Zaslon radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Zaslon is a Pulse-Doppler radar with a passive electronically scanned array (PESA) antenna and digital signal processing.
Did you get my point? A Radar is different and an antenna is different.

Why are you talking about antennas all of a sudden?
Whenever you start talking about PESA or AESA, you are talking about Antennas and not the radar. You can use one radar and give it either Passive Antennas or Active arrays.

Oh yeah by the way China has been making passive array radars on the destroyers, frigates and SAMs for years now, just like USA uses passive arrays for volume search.... but NOT on fighters.
The USAF never generated the rfp for a PESA on their old fighters because of the F-22 development. The most advanced USAF F-16s were Block 30/40 at the time(pre-2000).

In case of PLAAF. Right now you have Planar arrays on your J-10s and J-11, with speculations on Russian PESA on board the J-11. China is developing Russian PESA for its future variants and may proceed to build an AESA version for the same radar on a later date. The same thing that Russia is trying to do. The simple reason is China does not have access to fighter based AESA unless you get hold of a Russian version.
 

Officer of Engineers

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Taiwan is forgone conclusion, they will integrate into China without the Chinese even firing a shot.
I don't know who said this but this is complete hogwash. One country, two systems is what the CCP is promising which by definition means no integration whatsoever ... and frankly, the CCP does not want it.

Hell, they have enough problems with the Hong Kong legal system, trying to integrate Taiwan's political system would be the CCP's death knell.
 

Officer of Engineers

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I dont agree with that assessment at all, Indians even bought the Deep Sea Rescue Vessel even though they have not lost a crew, but they learnt from the Kursk disaster,
Have you? Adu, what lesson did you, I mean you personally took away from the Kursk disaster? And I mean you.
 

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